questions about love and commitment relative to K1 process

[Steve S 2]

I hope y'all will not mind a sort-of weighty post from a "junior member". There was this whole thread on the K1 forum that caught my attention because it resonated with relationship doubts I have. I want to bring my own questions on the issue to the Russia forum because it seems like a friendlier group of a more manageable size, and there may be some culture-specific elements to the issue. [slim would say I should not have even looked in the K1 forum at all]. Now, how to formulate the questions exactly - I think I will try in numerical format because I am that sort of thinker . . .

1. Is it customary, right or proper in this day and age (leaving aside cultures with arranged marriages) to become engaged if one or both parties are not truly in love yet? That is, it seems to be a perfect match, the physically you really connect, etc. but you have not really had the usual time together honestly for love to develop?

2. Does anyone have an experience with this sort of situation and did it turn out favorably once you did get the time together?

3. Does anyone have experience with feeling more in love with your Russian fiancee than you think they feel in return? I think there is asymmetry like this in relationships frequently, but usually people coming to more equal footing before the engagement happens. But, if you wait to collect enough time together on Russia vacations to work this process through, one or both parties may not be able to wait that long and the relationship can die.

4. In this sort of situation, doesn't the 90-day visa take on a "trial period" quality? I know that this is not the intent of the K1 visa, and it could put undue pressure on the time together in the U.S.

5. Has anyone deferred one or more steps of the marriage planning process until the 90-day period (formally proposing? giving a ring? announcing to parents? discussing time and place of wedding?)? If so, what is it like to be in limbo or to have a quasi-fiancee for a year?

6. If you are in this limbo status where he/she (ok, mostly she's in this group I think) may be waiting for more time together to decide for sure about love and commitment, do you let everyone know about the "engagement"? Do you introduce her as your fiancee?

I know that each relationship is its own unique universe, but would appreciate any thoughts from others on these questions I am struggling with right now.

[slim 1,525]

First of all, you were right. You shouldn't have been looking in the K-1 forum! Those people will just mess you all up and get you thinking about stuff that has nothing to do with what's going on in your relationship at all. Fact of the matter is the Russian VJ process differs greatly from what folks VJing through UK or Germany or even somewhere like Mexico might go through. Russia is unique, and that's why it's important for you to post stuff like this here. Also, you're not a "junior member" - you're a Russia Forum "member" (as you'll later become known.)

To answer your questions..... a lot could be answered if you'd post "your story." From what I've gathered so far though, it sounds pretty typical and what you're doing right now is second-guessing plans that are already set in motion. They're not set in stone though, so here we go -

1. Why did you choose your fiancee and why did she "accept" your proposal? Be honest. If you can come to terms with why you're both in the situation, love may have absolutely nothing at all to do with it for either one of you other than a whimsical, "I hope someday we can fall in love." There's nothing wrong with that but it has to be acknowledged and agreed upon, UP FRONT, by both parties. Things will naturally develop once you're together, but to start off with the expectation that they'll be there because you happened to find someone suitable is asking a little much. In this day and age, it's perfectly acceptable to start off with, "I found a hot chick on the internet and I have enough money to provide her with a better life. She's agreed to join me. We're going to try to fall in love someday." (Not saying that's your situation, but so what if it is? There's nothing wrong with it. Why is it "OK" to get drunk at a bar, go home with a stranger, and then start dating but to exchange correspondence for months and months, then travel around the world to meet each other, work through a language barrier, and then finally get something going romantically, why is that taboo?)

2. Number two is kind of backwards for me. I knew my wife way back in 2000 and we actually dated in person for a couple months before being separated for several years. We actually had "the love" right away and only after being reunited did we start to question if we could really love this person or not. It was a romantic dream for the better part of five years, but, once we lived together, day in and day out, it's been a struggle to maintain. However, we work through it. Why? I'm not going to say it's love (cause I'm a tough guy) but it's definitely not all my money.

3. At this stage in the game, most people are only in love with the idea of marrying their S/O. They really don't even know each other and it's more infatuation mixed with excitement over the possibility of what could be, than what it actually is. Love is an idea at this point. Keep in mind though, there is a vast cultural difference here as well. Most Russians don't go around all starry-eyed and even though Russian women read romance novels, they're "strong independent Russian woman." They're not going to baby talk to you on the phone because they haven't heard from you in like 2 hours. They're going to let you know that yes, they will be married for you after arrival to U.S. in seven or eight months.

4. I believe that's the whole reason the 90-days is there. I wish it was a whole year, but it's only 90-days. If you don't take the whole 90-days as a trial period, YOU SHOULD! Sure, she's going to get here, look around, and if your house is nice enough, your story checks out, she'll marry you. See number one above, but call it what it is. If that's good enough for you, then do it. I don't see why it wouldn't be good enough.

5. If you had a "normal" relationship you could do normal stuff. You do not. You have a special Russian K-1 fiancee visa relationship. You kind of have to tailor your "normal" activities around what you both can do and what you both want. Quasi-fiancee? What's that? Either she's your fiancee and you're going to marry her, have told all your buddies, family, etc., or she's not. If you're still "not sure" then you better make your mind up. If you're unsure of whether or not she's sure, ask her straight up, "are you going to come here and marry me?" If she replies yes, you better make your mind up! If she's not sure, go shopping. There are about 48,000 more on the websites. You'll find one that is sure.

6. It almost sounds as if she's not 100% and has agreed to come here to "check it out" and if it's nice enough, she'll go ahead and marry you. You still have a long way to go in the visa process so you have plenty of time, but I'd recommend either shoring up that seriousness level.... or finding a different one.

Steve you haven't posted on here a whole bunch, but from what you have posted, I get the vibe that you clicked on a profile, liked what you saw, made a visit, got a "yes" and now that it's getting down to crunch time, to actually signing on the dotted lines, both of you (more her, cause you're already like, "well, what've I got to lose, she's smokin hot!") aren't 100% sure you really want to go through with it.

Those are natural feelings. This is a crazy process! You're basically agreeing (both of you) to spend your life with a complete stranger that you spent all of, what? One week? together with? You don't even know each other! You know better than to do what you're about to do.

But..... there's something deep down (in your pants, as the Ladies Man Leon Phelps would say!) that tells you to just throw caution to the wind and do it! Why is it so crazy? You met. You shared some kind of connection. You had a bond. And also, there's a reason you two were connected all the way across the world. It could work!

This is a crazy process, it doesn't make any sense, it's not normal. But, that's what makes it fun, exciting and interesting. That's also what could lead to a serious relationship and who knows, maybe the best love of your life.

Assess the situation for what it is, then go with your gut. Be honest with each other and give it your best shot! (And STAY OUT OF THE K-1 FORUM!)

[baron555 934]

Steve I'd like to convey my junior thoughts also. Alla and I are in the middle of the K-1 process and converse all the time about some of the questions you raise.

1. Is it customary, right or proper in this day and age (leaving aside cultures with arranged marriages) to become engaged if one or both parties are not truly in love yet? That is, it seems to be a perfect match, the physically you really connect, etc. but you have not really had the usual time together honestly for love to develop?

I would say that we are somewhat in this stage also. We do love each other, are a perfect match, and are physically and mentally attracted to each other. We do tell each other that we love each other but we have an understanding, that we have talked about, that our love for each other is expected to grow every day that we are eventually together. We are both committed to the pending marriage and both want it to last forever. We have talked about how our day to day relationship will be and what makes each other angry and what we will do if one becomes in a bad mood. Of course we will eventually see if our plan is workable. We communicate virtually every day and talk and talk. I would say that in a certain sense we communicate more than if this was a domestic relationship; that's all we can do is communicate!

2. Does anyone have an experience with this sort of situation and did it turn out favorably once you did get the time together?

See item 1 above. I'll let all know how it goes.

3. Does anyone have experience with feeling more in love with your Russian fiancee than you think they feel in return? I think there is asymmetry like this in relationships frequently, but usually people coming to more equal footing before the engagement happens. But, if you wait to collect enough time together on Russia vacations to work this process through, one or both parties may not be able to wait that long and the relationship can die.

True but with today's technology there is no excuse for not maintaining a constant communication. We email, talk on the phone, send SMS messages, and Skype video conference for hours on end.

4. In this sort of situation, doesn't the 90-day visa take on a "trial period" quality? I know that this is not the intent of the K1 visa, and it could put undue pressure on the time together in the U.S.

Yes it does give it a trial quality. My lady knows that she will have the final say to when we will become formally married. We have talked and both agree that by day #60, she will give her decision. We may do it sooner. We have agreed that if I say no, she goes home. If I say yes, then she has the final decision that I will honor. More comments on this at the end.

5. Has anyone deferred one or more steps of the marriage planning process until the 90-day period (formally proposing? giving a ring? announcing to parents? discussing time and place of wedding?)? If so, what is it like to be in limbo or to have a quasi-fiancee for a year?

Nope, proposed while in Kiev, gave the ring first of course, told parents, family and close friends. Wedding will be at the county courthouse.

6. If you are in this limbo status where he/she (ok, mostly she's in this group I think) may be waiting for more time together to decide for sure about love and commitment, do you let everyone know about the "engagement"? Do you introduce her as your fiancee?

Only have told family and close friends. We both will wait to make our announcement on CNN until we are actually together and married. We both do not need to listen to all the folks who will usually weigh in negatively about our international relationship. This is our business.

My lady is worried about what kind of job she will be able to have when she gets here and after learning better English. She wants to contribute to the family expenses. We have gone through some tough times. We both have challenged the relationship and have offered to each other that we are crazy and should stop....that each could find another man or woman that will offer a less stressful challenge. We go full circle and always come back to us and our desire to be with each other. She has carved a nice life for herself and her adopted little one but wants to be with me and only me. She worries that she and the little one will make my life a "horrible movie". She reads on the Russian forums about the terrible experiences of others who have come to America. She has met and talked personally with the wife of one of the regular VJers.

Luckily she is now vacationing down at a resort on the Black Sea and is with her good friend who is also in the K-1 process. Her friend is very upbeat about coming to America. We both tell each other "All with be OK."

Now, what do I do to ease her transition? I have sent her a book, printed in both English and Russian, titled "Welcome to America". It was written in the late 90s by two Russians who immigrated to the US. It talks about all the subjects of typical life in the US. It is a bit dated but it has 1000 pages and Alla tells me it is a good read. She also has a million more questions after reading it. We have talked about all aspects of life here in the US. Schools for the little one, insurance, banking, shopping, driving, food, jobs. I have taken photos of everywhere I go, the salon, the market, my bank, the gas station, the drive to work, on the highway and all around my house. I also fire up my laptop which has a builtin webcam and connect to my WiFi and walk around the house and the yard giving live video feed. She does the same around her apartment. When she comes to my house, she will know where everything is at.

I told her that I was going to repaint some of the rooms and she made me stop because she wantst o help. I understand that letting her redecorate the house will make her feels more at home.

So I hope this helps you. Yes I do worry that she might talk herself out of coming. If so, then I guess I'll just have to go to her and open up that Papaya and Peanut Butter stand (and maybe a taxi service from SVO1 to SVO2!!! PM me if you want to talk more personally.

Phil

[baron555 934]

Why be secretive?

[johnj 0]

1. Is it customary, right or proper in this day and age (leaving aside cultures with arranged marriages) to become engaged if one or both parties are not truly in love yet? That is, it seems to be a perfect match, the physically you really connect, etc. but you have not really had the usual time together honestly for love to develop?

Everyone is different; for me it is easy to fall in love. I consider marriage a contract and commitment to each other and to develop love together for a lasting life together. Of course, the psychologists and other on VJ will say it is not love but only infatuation.

2. Does anyone have an experience with this sort of situation and did it turn out favorably once you did get the time together?

I have two previous filings of K1 that never made it through the process; neither ever went to the interview. Number 2 canceled on me to marry another man. I canceled number 1 myself before the interview process after my fifth visit.

3. Does anyone have experience with feeling more in love with your Russian fiancee than you think they feel in return? I think there is asymmetry like this in relationships frequently, but usually people coming to more equal footing before the engagement happens. But, if you wait to collect enough time together on Russia vacations to work this process through, one or both parties may not be able to wait that long and the relationship can die.

Yes, true for my second canceled K-1 visa-I was more in love than she, guess that is why she canceled and married another man.

4. In this sort of situation, doesn't the 90-day visa take on a "trial period" quality? I know that this is not the intent of the K1 visa, and it could put undue pressure on the time together in the U.S.

My trial period is this visa process. I will not ask her to move to USA unless she is sure and I am sure. Once the visa is granted, I consider us married and totally committed. We will do the official marriage according to her timetable.

5. Has anyone deferred one or more steps of the marriage planning process until the 90-day period (formally proposing? giving a ring? announcing to parents? discussing time and place of wedding?)? If so, what is it like to be in limbo or to have a quasi-fiancee for a year?

Nope.

6. If you are in this limbo status where he/she (ok, mostly she's in this group I think) may be waiting for more time together to decide for sure about love and commitment, do you let everyone know about the "engagement"? Do you introduce her as your fiancee?

I am open about our relationship and our intent to marry. I have told those than need to know and a few others that just need to give me a hard time, again.

[Steve S 2]

Thank you for the replies so far.

a lot could be answered if you'd post "your story."

It is mostly typical with maybe a couple of twists, not sure I am ready to post all details in public. Basically, we met online - she was interested in meeting American guys but it was not a marriage broker site. We were penpals for 2 years and decided to meet last September. I am leaving in 2 weeks for my 3rd trip to see her.

Love is an idea at this point. . . . You have a special Russian K-1 fiancee visa relationship.

I am reconciling with the idea that love will develop over time. We both see each other as more than suitable for each other, we miss each other if we go more than 24 hours without talking on the phone, we both believe that love is going to develop (setting aside for now whatever differences in each of our own emotions toward each other at this point in time). It is solid enough for me to feel good about the engagement, even though it is not utterly traditional. OK, sure it would be nice to feel she was madly in love with me already, but maybe it will be more meaningful this way when it happens.

Keep in mind though, there is a vast cultural difference here as well.

We actually just talked about this. Irina pointed out that to her knowledge, most Russians thought of marriage as mostly a legal concept, and that a small proportion of couples have a church wedding -- which may be a couple of years after the marriage itself, after they have had time for the love to become stronger and they are ready to commit to a life relationship before God. She pointed out that couples who are having a wedding this way are rarely divorcing. This info may be region-specific and should not be taken as Gospel, but if true I think there is a logic and beauty to doing it that way.

"well, what've I got to lose, she's smokin hot!"

HELL, yes. I am in love with her mind, her personality, etc. but it sure helped the process along that she is drop-dead gorgeous.

there's something deep down that tells you to just throw caution to the wind and do it!

This is the most amazing thing I have ever tried to do -- either the craziest or the most brilliant!

True but with today's technology there is no excuse for not maintaining a constant communication. We email, talk on the phone, send SMS messages, and Skype video conference for hours on end.

Yes, we are in constant contact. But for Irina, she needs a lot of time together in person to feel the relationship and love truly developing.

PM me if you want to talk more personally.

Phil

Thanks, I think I will.

Everyone is different; for me it is easy to fall in love.

Raises the whole can of worms about how we define what is love anyway. I get infatuated easily myself. But, I have never before felt the way I feel about Irina (never with first wife). Could say more and want to reply to a few more quotes but she has texted me right now, in bath with candles, and what the hell am I doing still typing?!

[AKguy 1]

I just wanted to say this looks like a great thread going on here and I would like to contribute later when I'm at home. I can only say so much before the "man" beats me down here at work.

I like the open and honest replies coming back and it makes me appreciate this forum and this section of it specifically, as we with Russian fiancee's (or soon to be) are just a little bit *different* than most. And I wouldn't change that last part for the world.

[mox 298]

I hope y'all will not mind a sort-of weighty post from a "junior member". There was this whole thread on the K1 forum that caught my attention because it resonated with relationship doubts I have. I want to bring my own questions on the issue to the Russia forum because it seems like a friendlier group of a more manageable size, and there may be some culture-specific elements to the issue. [slim would say I should not have even looked in the K1 forum at all]. Now, how to formulate the questions exactly - I think I will try in numerical format because I am that sort of thinker . . .

I'm posting before reading others' replies, so as not to taint my own thoughts on this, so some of what I say might duplicate others' advice, particularly slim's. On the other hand, some of my advice may be completely opposite of what some other members offer, particularly slim's.

1. Is it customary, right or proper in this day and age (leaving aside cultures with arranged marriages) to become engaged if one or both parties are not truly in love yet? That is, it seems to be a perfect match, the physically you really connect, etc. but you have not really had the usual time together honestly for love to develop?

Not to wax philosophical or anything, but what is love? Seriously, I think it's such an ill-defined concept that there's no way to really ask the question, let alone answer it. The question is, does it *feel* right for both of you? Can you see yourself with this woman 10 years from now? 20? 30? How much do any of us know our partner, even after we've been together for years?

As far as it being "customary, right or proper"...I'm of the mind to say "#### anybody who has an opinion on whether any aspect of your relationship is customary, right, or proper."

2. Does anyone have an experience with this sort of situation and did it turn out favorably once you did get the time together?

It's a pretty nebulous question. Your relationship is either going to work, or it's not, and this is largely based on how much effort you both put into it. One of these days the amazing sex and the fascinating conversation is going to settle down into not quite so amazing and fascinating. Those dirty dishes and house work you were so happy about doing for her is going to seem more like a chore, and some of those cute little personality quirks she has are going to become annoying. That's when the real work begins, and how you respond is going to determine whether you have a favorable outcome or not.

3. Does anyone have experience with feeling more in love with your Russian fiancee than you think they feel in return? I think there is asymmetry like this in relationships frequently, but usually people coming to more equal footing before the engagement happens. But, if you wait to collect enough time together on Russia vacations to work this process through, one or both parties may not be able to wait that long and the relationship can die.

Very likely your Russian fiancee doesn't seem to be returning your feelings as much as you are projecting them. It's a cultural thing. It doesn't mean she doesn't feel them, it just means that Russians don't talk or gush about their feelings as much as Westerners, especially Americans. On the other hand, it could be that she really *IS* just not that in to you. The fact that she's willing to relocate and up-end her entire life should speak volumes though. Listen to the quality of what she says and how she acts, not the quantity. But be careful about projecting what you think she might be thinking or feeling based on what you want her to think or feel.

4. In this sort of situation, doesn't the 90-day visa take on a "trial period" quality? I know that this is not the intent of the K1 visa, and it could put undue pressure on the time together in the U.S.

This is why we recommend staying out of the K1 forum. Here's the deal: the intent of a K1 visa is to marry a person you have met within the preceding year, within 90 days. That's it. There is nothing more to the K1. Anything past that is your own interpretation, and don't let anyone tell you anything different. If you want to use the 90 days to get to know each other better and make sure this is the real thing, then do it, and don't let anyone tell you anything different.

5. Has anyone deferred one or more steps of the marriage planning process until the 90-day period (formally proposing? giving a ring? announcing to parents? discussing time and place of wedding?)? If so, what is it like to be in limbo or to have a quasi-fiancee for a year?

I personally don't have the experience you mention in this question, but I don't see a problem with any of it. But one of the questions I'd ask myself right about now is that how emotionally and financially hit am I going to be if this whole thing falls through? My own personal criteria was that I wasn't going to bring her over unless I was 100% sure she was the future (and forever) Mrs. Mox, and I think that saved me a lot of time, money, and heartache.

6. If you are in this limbo status where he/she (ok, mostly she's in this group I think) may be waiting for more time together to decide for sure about love and commitment, do you let everyone know about the "engagement"? Do you introduce her as your fiancee?

I think you should ask her how she wants to handle this. If you fly her over, it indicates you're at least serious about her. And unless you're embarrassed to be seen with her, there shouldn't be any problem with introducing her to your family.

The last thing I'd say is that if you and/or her are feeling unsure about things, there's nothing that says you have to file right now. And if you have filed, there's nothing that says you have to go through with it. If you need more time, take it. Cancel your petition, save up and visit her another time or two, keep up the communications, etc.

Hope that helps!

[mox 298]

Why be secretive?

There's actually pretty good reasons for not filling in a timeline. I don't fill mine in due to privacy concerns. There's some real douche bags out there who like to ensure we don't have nice things.

[baron555 934]

OK, sure it would be nice to feel she was madly in love with me already, but maybe it will be more meaningful this way when it happens.

As mox said, do not project your own feelings to her. She may be very much in love with you but expresses it differently.

The fact that she's willing to relocate and up-end her entire life should speak volumes though. Listen to the quality of what she says and how she acts, not the quantity. But be careful about projecting what you think she might be thinking or feeling based on what you want her to think or feel.

This is dead on target. If she is willing to give up her entire life, maybe a nice life in Russia, leave family and friends, and move in with you in a strange place where she doesn't speak the language well.......this is a big signal that she wants to be with you. She knows what she is doing and agreeing to do this with you clearly shows that she values you as a life partner, and possibly forever partner.

she needs a lot of time together in person to feel the relationship and love truly developing.

Bingo. You both are not teenagers. Wouldn't you want to be with someone who is thinking clearly and rationally? This then is your (and ours and mine too) challenge. To bring them here, to support them, to nuture them, to love them 100%. From what I know, from what I have read and from what I have discussed with others who are successfully in their relationship with a RW or RM, this is all part of the intense and wonderful relationship that can happen. With all the effort required to make the relationship happen and continue, unless either or both are not really serious about it, there is a big chance for success.

If your upper head says yes and your heart says yes, and she agrees, then do it. Now Quickly

You both will keep learning from each other for years and years.

[eekee 182]

I disagree with Mox slightly. While Russian women might show less emotion, Russian MEN show far more in contrast with American men, IMO. Especially at the beginning of a relationship. I have many an American girlfriend who have been freaked out by the intensity of emotion and declarations of love by their first Russian boyfriend. So she might be expecting you to *really* show how you feel but not feel an expectation to mirror your actions.

[mox 298]

I disagree with Mox slightly. While Russian women might show less emotion, Russian MEN show far more in contrast with American men, IMO. Especially at the beginning of a relationship. I have many an American girlfriend who have been freaked out by the intensity of emotion and declarations of love by their first Russian boyfriend. So she might be expecting you to *really* show how you feel but not feel an expectation to mirror your actions.

Ahh, well my experiences with Russian men have been rather limited, so I'll defer to you on this one.

[baron555 934]

I disagree with Mox slightly. While Russian women might show less emotion, Russian MEN show far more in contrast with American men, IMO. Especially at the beginning of a relationship. I have many an American girlfriend who have been freaked out by the intensity of emotion and declarations of love by their first Russian boyfriend. So she might be expecting you to *really* show how you feel but not feel an expectation to mirror your actions.

I too must defer but would ask what do you mean by intensity of emotion? Give some examples.

There are many ways one can show the other that they love them without actually speaking the words.

I know that in my own relationship that there have been a few things that I have done that earned me a ton of points and placed that arrow smack dab into her heart. Some were intentional and some were just me acting naturally. She has picked up on those, especially the latter, and I'm sure contributes to her being attracted to me.

[eekee 182]

I disagree with Mox slightly. While Russian women might show less emotion, Russian MEN show far more in contrast with American men, IMO. Especially at the beginning of a relationship. I have many an American girlfriend who have been freaked out by the intensity of emotion and declarations of love by their first Russian boyfriend. So she might be expecting you to *really* show how you feel but not feel an expectation to mirror your actions.

I too must defer but would ask what do you mean by intensity of emotion? Give some examples.

There are many ways one can show the other that they love them without actually speaking the words.

I know that in my own relationship that there have been a few things that I have done that earned me a ton of points and placed that arrow smack dab into her heart. Some were intentional and some were just me acting naturally. She has picked up on those, especially the latter, and I'm sure contributes to her being attracted to me.

Russian men move way faster. People get married quicker. They say I love you earlier. They are more likely to cry at the end of a touching film. They start using pet names immediately. I don't know. There's just never really question about where your relationship stands because they tell you straight up. There's pretty much no anxiety about coming off as gay or something because Russian culture is so homophobic that it's not really a possibility.

Edited June 24, 2009 by eekee

[AKguy 1]

Russian men move way faster. People get married quicker. They say I love you earlier. They are more likely to cry at the end of a touching film. They start using pet names immediately. I don't know. There's just never really question about where your relationship stands because they tell you straight up. There's pretty much no anxiety about coming off as gay or something because Russian culture is so homophobic that it's not really a possibility.

From listening to my SO and her friends, the Russian men are borderline immature in the way they show their affection. Like Jr. High crush style. And sometimes it reaches a disturbing level, as I have witnessed with an admirer of my SO while I was visiting Russia. Luckily he spoke enough English so i could convey my feelings on the subject at 3am when he wouldn't stop calling. Silly boys.