France to ban Burqas/Niqab in Public?

[sandinista! 1,816]

Yes I see your point, there is a difference. The women I spoke to were covered, except for their eyes. This man has already banned the headscarves in certain places though... is he truly limiting his ban to the ones where the women are entirely covered? Even if he is, I still believe it is wrong for him to make this choice for anyone.

sarkozy didn't ban headscarves in french schools. that happened in 2004, and he's only been president since 2007. at a speech in riyadh, he also said, of islam, that it is "one of the greatest and most beautiful civilizations the world has known". he's been criticized for not separating religion and state enough in france, that he overly emphasizes the role of religion in everyday french life. so it's kinda puzzling that he would take a position like this, actually.

[100% Al Ahly Fan 53]

Well, it's France, and they can make their laws as they wish, just as the KSA can ban Christian expression in public and ban non-Muslims from Mecca.

Very true sista, but no less frustrating for others in those places as well! Wish people would just mind there own, especially when they aren't hurting anyone.

[UmmSqueakster 54]

There is a difference between burqa and niqab - and from reading several article he is refering to an Afghan burqa.

That is because journalists in general, quite frankly, have a difficult time explaining islam. While here in america, we think afghanistan when we hear burqa, throughout most of the rest of the world, it conjures images of the black niqab.

From LeMonde:

If you said burqa in Egypt, this is what you would get:

This is a burqa in oman:

and a saudi burqa:

I can't imagine that there are any afghan burqa wearers in France. The articles I have read talk about the salafi influence on women who wear these. Salafi women wear niqab, saudi burqas, not afghan burqas.

[sandinista! 1,816]

Well, it's France, and they can make their laws as they wish, just as the KSA can ban Christian expression in public and ban non-Muslims from Mecca.

you know full well though that french laws will never receive the same stigmatization and condemnation that such saudi laws do. why is that?

[sandinista! 1,816]

There is a difference between burqa and niqab - and from reading several article he is refering to an Afghan burqa.

That is because journalists in general, quite frankly, have a difficult time explaining islam. While here in america, we think afghanistan when we hear burqa, throughout most of the rest of the world, it conjures images of the black niqab.

I can't imagine that there are any afghan burqa wearers in France. The articles I have read talk about the salafi influence on women who wear these. Salafi women wear niqab, saudi burqas, not afghan burqas.

i would still argue that when it comes to freedom of religious expression, there is no difference between burqa and niqab, whether it's the style seen in the gulf or af-pak. in france, women should be free to wear whatever they choose.

[Sofiyya 1,687]

Well, it's France, and they can make their laws as they wish, just as the KSA can ban Christian expression in public and ban non-Muslims from Mecca.

you know full well though that french laws will never receive the same stigmatization and condemnation that such saudi laws do. why is that?

That's no secret. In the western press, Saudi is "the other", a strange and exotic place with medieval traditions. Heck. their traditions (laws are not often codified there) even get criticism in the wider Muslim world where there is growing resentment of how they use their petrol dollars to try to spread their interpretation of Islam and Muslim practice into poorer countries via funding of masjids, schools and other venues.

[MrsAmera 41]

You're right - if I moved to KSA and decided my culture was to wear tank tops I might be stoned. Also I still don't think the majority of these extreme coverings are "chosen"

[UmmSqueakster 54]

What goes around comes around.

That's karma.

It will come back to bite them in the behind.

Payback is a b*tch.

France imposed their culture upon muslim countries, often ruthlessley. I can't help but thinking that muslims practicing their culture in France is cosmic payback.

[aisha kandisha 0]

You're right - if I moved to KSA and decided my culture was to wear tank tops I might be stoned. Also I still don't think the majority of these extreme coverings are "chosen"

Every niqabi I know in this country wears it by choice. It is a small sampling, for sure, but I don't know a single one who is coerced or feels pressured from their spouse. Most of their husbands practice a might 'lighter' form of Islam than they do. They would also find it offensive to hear their chosen covering extreme.

Edited June 23, 2009 by aisha kandisha

[Kenza 1]

I had a quick question somewhat related. Tunisia bans the hijab right? what if you are a hijabi tourist in Tunisia? Will the police come up to you and take off your hijab?

[ddartt1 2]

I like this part of the article:

I also like this part! Thanks for posting it.

[Der Bücherwurm 1]

What goes around comes around.

That's karma.

It will come back to bite them in the behind.

Payback is a b*tch.

France imposed their culture upon muslim countries, often ruthlessley. I can't help but thinking that muslims practicing their culture in France is cosmic payback.

What an enlightened viewpoint not to mention a gross misunderstanding of karma. I'm assuming you are white. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm assuming that if you were gang-raped by a bunch of black guys you wouldn't get upset and would feel you deserved it because black people were once held as slaves by white people, no? And what, if anything, do you think Kurdish people or Armenian and Assyrian Christians, etc. should do to Arabs out of revenge? Should they be given a free pass to oppress, discriminate against and even kill Arabs or Turks? Should Iran be told to go ahead with it's nuclear program and allowed to exact revenge against the descendants of the Arabs that brought down the Persian empire and occupied their lands? Should fellow muslims from Asian countries like Pakistan that are held as virtual slaves in the Gulf countries be allowed to turn around and enslave Arab muslims? What exactly are you willing to condone and for how many generations should the punishment last?

[UmmSqueakster 54]

I'm sorry, but did or did not the french government ruthlessly supress native populations in north africa? In no way am I suggesting the descendents of this oppression rise up and take an eye for an eye. I am merely commenting on the irony of the french government whining about a few muslim women wearing a face veil as a threat to the very framework of their society when the french government did much worse to threaten framework of the societies they colonized.

And also the fact that many of these people are even in france is also a direct result of france's colonizing efforts in north africa. There wouldn't be a veil problem in france if france didn't colonize in the first place.

[Ahmeds Girl 0]

From LeMonde:

Personally, the above image I find far from appealing. Women made to look like a shadowy blankets strike me as an entirely false notion of what God would want. However, my opinion is not relevant, nor should it affect another human being's rights. If a woman who can choose wants to dress like that in public - IT IS HER CHOICE. We all have to wear dress code in certain situations (such as work). Apart from these situations, adults should be able to wear what they like.

Honestly, I don't know which disgust me more - men exerting mental or other pressue to ensure their wives wear a hijab, niqab, burqa - or the women who cover to keep a faulty relationship afloat (in countries where women have free choice). Regarding niqab in the west, so few women wear this style of dress that it seems futile to make such a huge issue about it. I am sick of hearing about how offended people are about dress codes. Get over it. Being offended won't kill you. If a woman wants to wear as little or as much as she chooses - that is up to her. It isn't the job of governments to tell citizens what to wear - whether they are in Iran, SA or France. Until women, the world over, are free to make their own choices, dress will always be an issue.

Edited June 23, 2009 by Ahmeds Girl

[MrsAmera 41]

One of my very best friends here wears niqab. Partly her own choosing partly her husband's influence. Her mother wears no covering at all and never has so I also think that's an interesting paradox. I think France's issue also stems from the fact that they believe many of these immigrants have no desire and are not working to integrate into France as a whole. Yes there is a colonial legacy however, they are free to return home if they wish. Retaining your cultural identity and legacy is one thing, failing to adapt in your new country and even care to do so is another. I also know that life for Muslims in France is far from peachy - being passed over for jobs etc etc. The same could be said for the large segments of Mexican and Central American population here. Many (at least where I am) do not attempt to blend in but instead demand that we make concessions for them. Spanish speaking public schools, dual translation on everything etc. If the US governement said "hey good for you to retain your cultural identity but we're not going to allow anymore Mexican flags, or Spanish to be used or spoken on public documents." It's still their choice right? They can choose not to speak English, but if it violates the law then that's the law. France can do as it sees fit, just as Saudi Arabia, China and every other sovereign nation can.

Edited June 23, 2009 by MrsAmera