Che Guevara's grandaughter to appear semi-nude in PETA ad.

[scandal 951]

Monsters abound on 'both sides'.

Whatever those sides are...

I'm only skimming this thread, not really following it closely.

But, if we generally agree that monsters abound ... and freedom and rights have been trampled on throughout Latin America for decades from left and right...

And if the initial theme of this thread dealt with Che, and whether he should be perceived as a hero and emblazoned on T-shirts...

I would argue he is no hero. He represented a brand of extremist ideology. The fact that his ideology opposed yet another brand of repressive ideology doesn't redeem him. Anyone who espouses extremism of any flavor is no hero in my view.

Now, the kids that want to wear T-shirts, it's a free country (here, anyway, in the US). They can wear whatever they like as far as I'm concerned. But when I see a shirt like that, I'm not impressed with the sophistication or depth of understanding that the wearer has.

[HAL 9000 96]

They DO voice it in Cuba.

Really? You haven't given any sort of proof. Here's plenty to back everything I stated before.

"Human rights in Cuba are a subject of much debate. In practise, repression is "written into Cuban law" according to Human Rights Watch.[1]

Human Rights Watch is among international human rights organizations accusing the Cuban regime of systematic human rights abuses, including torture, arbitrary imprisonment, unfair trials, and extrajudicial executions (a.k.a. "El Paredón").[1][2][3]

Cuban law harshly limits freedom of expression, association, assembly, movement, and the press. There is no due process; the judicial system is constitutionally subordinate to the government. The government maintains tight control on religious institutions, affiliated groups, and individual believers[1]. Censorship is tight, resulting in one of the lowest ratings on the 2008 Press Freedom Index.[4] Internet censorship is enforced by surveillance and permits.[5] Most emigration is illegal."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_rights_in_Cuba

You need to be more specific as to where your numbers come from. What's the breakdown? Are these military deaths from the actual armed struggle? Civilians victimized by the regime?

I gave the high number for executions but the Cuban government has had tight grip on power so it doesn't necessarily have to kill you to ruin your life.

"According to Che Guevara: A Biography, Che Guevara alone said that he was responsible for "several thousand" executions during the first year.[23] British historian Hugh Thomas, in his study Cuba or the pursuit of freedom[24] stated that "perhaps" 5,000 executions had taken place by 1970,[22] whilst The World Handbook of Political and Social Indicators ascertained that there had been 2,113 political executions between the years of 1958-67.[22] The author of the Historical Atlas, an online personal compilation of various sources, concludes: The dividing line between those who have an axe to grind and those who don't falls in the 5,000-12,000 range"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_rights_in_Cuba

Well voicing it doesn't mean they won't be penalized for it. And yet they do it... otherwise there wouldn't be any precious wikipedia entries about journalists getting sentenced to massive amount of jail time for writing their opinions.

Then there's what people call word-of-mouth propaganda and communications. That is something that is very prevalent in Cuba. Tends to happen in dictatorial regimes.

The link I provided you is similar to your initial one. Your even has a breakdown.

Similarly for Chile... people tend to flee places of high repression to places where the repression is not as high.

[HAL 9000 96]

Monsters abound on 'both sides'.

Whatever those sides are...

I'm only skimming this thread, not really following it closely.

But, if we generally agree that monsters abound ... and freedom and rights have been trampled on throughout Latin America for decades from left and right...

And if the initial theme of this thread dealt with Che, and whether he should be perceived as a hero and emblazoned on T-shirts...

I would argue he is no hero. He represented a brand of extremist ideology. The fact that his ideology opposed yet another brand of repressive ideology doesn't redeem him. Anyone who espouses extremism of any flavor is no hero in my view.

Now, the kids that want to wear T-shirts, it's a free country (here, anyway, in the US). They can wear whatever they like as far as I'm concerned. But when I see a shirt like that, I'm not impressed with the sophistication or depth of understanding that the wearer has.

IMO, he was neither hero nor the monster he is being portrayed as. It is the old bait and switch... make the ideology the monster... and then the followers of the ideology become monsters themselves. Same BS with the old hysteria with Obama the Messiah- labeled by none other than web pundits on the Right wing.

It would of course, be much more simple if war itself, be it guerrilla/subversive/covert warfare or conventional military operations, was the single reference point to be labeled a monster. Then all of us here fantasizing about killing people one way or another would have another thing to condemn, but all in unison. As long as stupid, idiotic ideology doesn't get in the way.

But the parallels between Che T-Shirts and, say, Sir Francis Drake T-Shirts, or movies like The Patriot- are feasibly all the same.

That stupid beret is what it is.

[_Simpson_ 250]

Monsters abound on 'both sides'.

Whatever those sides are...

I'm only skimming this thread, not really following it closely.

But, if we generally agree that monsters abound ... and freedom and rights have been trampled on throughout Latin America for decades from left and right...

And if the initial theme of this thread dealt with Che, and whether he should be perceived as a hero and emblazoned on T-shirts...

I would argue he is no hero. He represented a brand of extremist ideology. The fact that his ideology opposed yet another brand of repressive ideology doesn't redeem him. Anyone who espouses extremism of any flavor is no hero in my view.

Now, the kids that want to wear T-shirts, it's a free country (here, anyway, in the US). They can wear whatever they like as far as I'm concerned. But when I see a shirt like that, I'm not impressed with the sophistication or depth of understanding that the wearer has.

[alienlovechild 75]

America's banana republic tactics in South America were one of the reasons that created inequality among the social classes, and el Che saw that..

Inequality in Latin America had 300 year head start before the U.S. existed so it's impossible for Americans to have created unequal conditions.

That doesn't explain why every Latin America is now democratic save for Cuba.

Well voicing it doesn't mean they won't be penalized for it. And yet they do it... otherwise there wouldn't be any precious wikipedia entries about journalists getting sentenced to massive amount of jail time for writing their opinions.

Then there's what people call word-of-mouth propaganda and communications. That is something that is very prevalent in Cuba. Tends to happen in dictatorial regimes.

So people can and do speak up. . . at their peril. You went from saying people don't need guns to show opposition to the Cuban government to admitting even voicing disapproval earns jail time.

I think you'll hear a lot of Cubans speaking up once the Castros are gone and if the Cuban government will allow some opposition. I'd rather see full diplomatic and trade relations once that happens and leave the rest to a legacy of the Cold War. If Russia and China can make some fundemental changes, Cuba could do so even more easily.

[HAL 9000 96]

America's banana republic tactics in South America were one of the reasons that created inequality among the social classes, and el Che saw that..

Inequality in Latin America had 300 year head start before the U.S. existed so it's impossible for Americans to have created unequal conditions.

That doesn't explain why every Latin America is now democratic save for Cuba.

Well voicing it doesn't mean they won't be penalized for it. And yet they do it... otherwise there wouldn't be any precious wikipedia entries about journalists getting sentenced to massive amount of jail time for writing their opinions.

Then there's what people call word-of-mouth propaganda and communications. That is something that is very prevalent in Cuba. Tends to happen in dictatorial regimes.

So people can and do speak up. . . at their peril. You went from saying people don't need guns to show opposition to the Cuban government to admitting even voicing disapproval earns jail time.

I think you'll hear a lot of Cubans speaking up once the Castros are gone and if the Cuban government will allow some opposition. I'd rather see full diplomatic and trade relations once that happens and leave the rest to a legacy of the Cold War. If Russia and China can make some fundemental changes, Cuba could do so even more easily.

Congruency... Dave... congruency.

Don't wash off the present on past transgressions. Specially when initiated by different parties.

I went from point A to point B. So?

Case in point... Iranians are under a similar situation- even with 'democratic' elections. Yet there they are on the streets fighting for what they believe is democratic fairness. If many more Cubans felt that much more strongly about their particular scenario, then they'd also be on the street protesting and I guarantee you that we'd be talking about it ad nauseam.

Totally with you on the post-Castros. IMO there is a lot of self-restraint out of a weird notion of respect to Fidel (not so much Raul). Perhaps then we'll see that expression become more... popular.

[almaty 19]

only America thinks El Che was a terrorist..

of course America is wrong there..

damn straight, he was a freedom fighter...

[Chica Yeyé 41]

only America thinks El Che was a terrorist..

of course America is wrong there..

damn straight, he was a freedom fighter...

[Ban Hammer 13,337]

only America thinks El Che was a terrorist..

of course America is wrong there..

damn straight, he was a freedom fighter...

sounds more like a mafia don - you can join, but you can't leave.

As the only other ranked Comandante besides Fidel Castro, Guevara was an extremely harsh disciplinarian. Deserters were punished as traitors, and Guevara was known to send execution squads to hunt down those seeking to go AWOL.[46] As a result, Guevara became feared for his brutality and ruthlessness.[47] During the guerrilla campaign, Guevara was also responsible for the execution of a number of men accused of being informers, deserters or spies.[48]

link

[Cuchita 1]

Which America are you refering to South, North Central?

only America thinks El Che was a terrorist..

of course America is wrong there..

[EstebanTrabajos 7]

viva la revolucion!

[one...two...tree 2,762]

viva la revolucion!

[Ban Hammer 13,337]

viva la revolucion!

[_Simpson_ 250]

viva la revolucion!

I tell you what Che would do, he would kill my asz cause I disagree with him.

[one...two...tree 2,762]

viva la revolucion!

I tell you what Che would do, he would kill my asz cause I disagree with him.

touche.