Che Guevara's grandaughter to appear semi-nude in PETA ad.

[alienlovechild 75]

I'll put Cuban popular interpretations of their own country's faults against your assessment any time. Like I said- if they want a radical change, they are smart enough and ironically equipped sufficiently to do so.

There are no popular interpretations allowed when the state controls education, media, no second amendment, police and armed forces. Do you have any idea of how a totalitarian state works?

Your rationale bolsters the case for Chile's rule by Pinochet. Their standard of living was far higher than Cubas and had a far lesser time to control the population.

The idea that if there's no revolution, the dictator must be popular enough thesis is naive. I'm sure if a U.S. president killed enough Americans, the rest might pretty scared to rise up.

[_Simpson_ 250]

only America thinks El Che was a terrorist..

of course America is wrong there..

Hmmm, he was ruthless and he pillaged villages while forcing people to join his "revolution". You might want to make a play on words here, like what exactly is a terrorist and have fun with that but what America did get right is that we dont see him as a hero as many delusional people do.

Working in California I have seen this on more than one occasion, mexicans and college kids wearing a Che shirt. Working where I did I knew that one of the Mexicans I addressed wasn't even a legal citizen. I thought how despicable, kind of like spitting on America if you ask me. I addressed him and he acted like he didnt even know who Che was, I have my doubts.

I see... confusing Reagan's Contras with el Ché.

I presume you have credible proof of this pillaging and forceful conscription into such a 'people's revolución.' Because if that were the case I wonder why his merry band of misfits was captured with less than 50 armed members.

As for the relationship between a person's migratory status and El Ché...

The ones I mainly have seen in Ché T-Shirts, OTOH... are college kids from what appear to be wealthy, suburban backgrounds.

Trying to make the comparison between Reagan and Che is laughable. You lefties really like trying to make Reagan look like a bad guy.

Yeah actually I do have credible proof that he pillaged villages, soldiers have come out and gave interviews, you should watch them. What about him being accused of torture?, do you write that off too?

I dont see the significance of pointing out that the kids you see wearing these shirts are rich, stupid comes from every class.

Edited June 21, 2009 by looking_up

[alienlovechild 75]

Yeah actually I do have credible proof that he pillaged villages, soldiers have come out and gave interviews, you should watch them. What about him being accused of torture?, do you write that off too?

You won't be able to convince him of the soccer field executions or the all the Cubans that fled the country during the Mariel boat lift either.

Don't even go into Cuba's meddling in Africa and Latin America. Only U.S. meddling counts for those folks.

[HAL 9000 96]

I'll put Cuban popular interpretations of their own country's faults against your assessment any time. Like I said- if they want a radical change, they are smart enough and ironically equipped sufficiently to do so.

There are no popular interpretations allowed when the state controls education, media, no second amendment, police and armed forces. Do you have any idea of how a totalitarian state works?

Your rationale bolsters the case for Chile's rule by Pinochet. Their standard of living was far higher than Cubas and had a far lesser time to control the population.

The idea that if there's no revolution, the dictator must be popular enough thesis is naive. I'm sure if a U.S. president killed enough Americans, the rest might pretty scared to rise up.

I know plenty about Cuba. Guns may facilitate armed revolt, but that is not the only avenue to changing the most repressive of governments. While Cuba's controlling regime (like I am repeating for the umpteenth time) has to go, it is the Cuban people that have to decide that for themselves. Not you interpretation given years of right-wing propaganda and on that note, not what our government decides what is best for them. The Cold war ended, we 'won', so lets get over those years already and remove that stupid embargo that (as I also restate) only reminds the Cuban people that Washington would rather play politics than help them become a partner among nations.

As for Pinochet... you mean to forget how our CIA installed him into power?

Then again, my argument isn't and never was, rooted in the notion that a dictatorial regime enjoys popular support due to the lack of an insurgency. Read again- Cubans in Cuba have no quarrel discussing what ails their nation.

[HAL 9000 96]

only America thinks El Che was a terrorist..

of course America is wrong there..

Hmmm, he was ruthless and he pillaged villages while forcing people to join his "revolution". You might want to make a play on words here, like what exactly is a terrorist and have fun with that but what America did get right is that we dont see him as a hero as many delusional people do.

Working in California I have seen this on more than one occasion, mexicans and college kids wearing a Che shirt. Working where I did I knew that one of the Mexicans I addressed wasn't even a legal citizen. I thought how despicable, kind of like spitting on America if you ask me. I addressed him and he acted like he didnt even know who Che was, I have my doubts.

I see... confusing Reagan's Contras with el Ché.

I presume you have credible proof of this pillaging and forceful conscription into such a 'people's revolución.' Because if that were the case I wonder why his merry band of misfits was captured with less than 50 armed members.

As for the relationship between a person's migratory status and El Ché...

The ones I mainly have seen in Ché T-Shirts, OTOH... are college kids from what appear to be wealthy, suburban backgrounds.

Trying to make the comparison between Reagan and Che is laughable. You lefties really like trying to make Reagan look like a bad guy.

Yeah actually I do have credible proof that he pillaged villages, soldiers have come out and gave interviews, you should watch them. What about him being accused of torture?, do you write that off too?

I dont see the significance of pointing out that the kids you see wearing these shirts are rich, stupid comes from every class.

I am not making a comparison. You merely confuse the presumed tactics of one guerrillero with those known to have been practiced by those financed by Reagan.

You lefties, this and that. If that is all you have, then just say it.

If you say you have 'proof' then produce it. Like I stated in a later post to that reply- notice the rich, stupid, analysis of singling out one side of the equation while being potentially ignorant of the other. As I also imply, el Ché was no glorious Prophet, but he was no Satan either. He fought something that was valid by all means just as much we have our own military agenda across the world which we fight for with even more dubious and dare I say, barbaric means.

[HAL 9000 96]

Yeah actually I do have credible proof that he pillaged villages, soldiers have come out and gave interviews, you should watch them. What about him being accused of torture?, do you write that off too?

You won't be able to convince him of the soccer field executions or the all the Cubans that fled the country during the Mariel boat lift either.

Don't even go into Cuba's meddling in Africa and Latin America. Only U.S. meddling counts for those folks.

Worked with Marielitos in Miami. What's your point?

Do you mean that the Cuban government never opened their ports for them to leave? Dave... that's quite a selective view of reality there brother.

The soccer field executions- now that sounds like what Pinochet was doing to plenty of Chileans in the 70s after he led a CIA-supported coup that you are somehow trying to equate to big, bad, Cuba making a big fuss in Bolivia.

Lets keep things logical and our arguments congruent now.

An aid:

US meddling in other's business = BAD

Any nation meddling in other's business = BAD

Any body meddling in other nation's business = BAD

Got it?

Hope so...

[alienlovechild 75]

As for Pinochet... you mean to forget how our CIA installed him into power?

With a lot help from the Chileans themselves. No American soldiers were there.

Read again- Cubans in Cuba have no quarrel discussing what ails their nation.

Read again how there's no freedom of press in Cuba, no freedom assembly, no freedom of speech. . . you and I have no idea what Cubans want because they aren't allowed to say what they want in public.

[HAL 9000 96]

As for Pinochet... you mean to forget how our CIA installed him into power?

With a lot help from the Chileans themselves. No American soldiers were there.

Read again- Cubans in Cuba have no quarrel discussing what ails their nation.

Read again how there's no freedom of press in Cuba, no freedom assembly, no freedom of speech. . . you and I have no idea what Cubans want because they aren't allowed to say what they want in public.

And you have definite proof of these claims.

CIA-sponsored means Pinochet had more than simple logistical support to overthrow a democratically elected government.

Maybe everyone that I know that actually been to Cuba in the 1980s, 90s, and 00s, including plenty of immigrants, Marielitos included, Operación Pedro Pan, etc... have certainly many things to say, that agree with your generalized perspective... but also quite to the contrary of your crass assumption that there is no ongoing dissidence in Cuba that has succeeded due to this repression. Maybe I knew a bunch of liars.

Or maybe I can still take their word for it over yours?

[alienlovechild 75]

Worked with Marielitos in Miami. What's your point?

Would you say they had a lot of love for Castro? Why couldn't they just voice that in Cuba?

Do you mean that the Cuban government never opened their ports for them to leave? Dave... that's quite a selective view of reality there brother.

Right and most Cubans usually sail on floating juke and innertubes to Florida for the fun of it.

The soccer field executions- now that sounds like what Pinochet was doing to plenty of Chileans in the 70s after he led a CIA-supported coup that you are somehow trying to equate to big, bad, Cuba making a big fuss in Bolivia.

It didn't happen? You may have a point as couldn't find a direct reference but for those keeping score at home:

Cubans killed by Cuba Over 100,000

Chileans killed by Chilean government 3,100

http://www.geocities.com/policraticus/

US meddling in other's business = BAD

Any nation meddling in other's business = BAD

Any body meddling in other nation's business = BAD

Got it?

Never said the U.S. should never meddle abroad as many nations would not be free if the U.S. did nothing. I'd actually approve of say Vietnam invading Cambodia to stop Pol Pot or Tanzania to stop Adi Amin.

[alienlovechild 75]

And you have definite proof of these claims.

Hard to prove a negative so it's up to you to prove your point that dissent is allowed.

CIA-sponsored means Pinochet had more than simple logistical support to overthrow a democratically elected government.

It was easy because Allende was a disaster and had lost most of the middle class. No mystery there.

Maybe everyone that I know that actually been to Cuba in the 1980s, 90s, and 00s, including plenty of immigrants, Marielitos included, Operación Pedro Pan, etc... have certainly many things to say, that agree with your generalized perspective... but also quite to the contrary of your crass assumption that there is no ongoing dissidence in Cuba that has succeeded due to this repression. Maybe I knew a bunch of liars.

Or maybe I can still take their word for it over yours?

Were they operating openly in Cuba? I'm sure they could say whatever they wanted in the U.S. Feel free to list all the dissent groups, free newspapers, free radio stations, free TV stations. In any case, if the government so popular they would have put it to the test in free and elections in the last 50 years.

[HAL 9000 96]

Worked with Marielitos in Miami. What's your point?

Would you say they had a lot of love for Castro? Why couldn't they just voice that in Cuba?

Do you mean that the Cuban government never opened their ports for them to leave? Dave... that's quite a selective view of reality there brother.

Right and most Cubans usually sail on floating juke and innertubes to Florida for the fun of it.

The soccer field executions- now that sounds like what Pinochet was doing to plenty of Chileans in the 70s after he led a CIA-supported coup that you are somehow trying to equate to big, bad, Cuba making a big fuss in Bolivia.

It didn't happen? You may have a point as couldn't find a direct reference but for those keeping score at home:

Cubans killed by Cuba Over 100,000

Chileans killed by Chilean government 3,100

http://www.geocities.com/policraticus/

US meddling in other's business = BAD

Any nation meddling in other's business = BAD

Any body meddling in other nation's business = BAD

Got it?

Never said the U.S. should never meddle abroad as many nations would not be free if the U.S. did nothing. I'd actually approve of say Vietnam invading Cambodia to stop Pol Pot or Tanzania to stop Adi Amin.

They DO voice it in Cuba.

Mariel boat lift is one thing (brought up by *you*), and inner tube trips is another. Lets be congruent.

As for more congruency-

You need to be more specific as to where your numbers come from. What's the breakdown? Are these military deaths from the actual armed struggle? Civilians victimized by the regime?

Same for Chile. Obviously nobody here is claiming two wrongs-make a right, and a death toll +1 is already too much... but there are plenty of estimates that make the Chilean events quite the more disturbing in the raw data of civilians known to have been executed, imprisoned, or worse- disappeared.

[Ms. Squirrel 11]

yea because the legacy of USA exploitative neocolonialist practices still remains...

USA might think of el CHE as a terrorist... but many Americans don't know, or try not to, how America pillaged Latin America, and how many people died because of USA... i.e Pinochet

Yeah Yeah Yeah America bad, got it. I have heard this song a time or two. This has become more about your dislike for America than about Che.

We Americans are rightly proud of our historical achievements, and recognizing our failures or the wrongs we've done to others is the mature approach towards history. We're not perfect and talking about our imperfections doesn't make us bad. If that were true, every person who has been critical of the current U.S. policies, both foreign and domestic is then expressing anti-American sentiment. You can't have it both ways.

What???, I am not asking to have it both ways. Sure we need to be critical too but often people who have such a dislike for America only b1itch about America. We were talking about Che and Pedro keeps pointing out things that America did, like its supposed to justify Che's actions or something.

America's banana republic tactics in South America were one of the reasons that created inequality among the social classes, and el Che saw that..

read United Fruit Company.. there are a lot of documented cases of how they bribed politicians in those countries...

oops.. posted in J's account again lol

[HAL 9000 96]

Worked with Marielitos in Miami. What's your point?

Would you say they had a lot of love for Castro? Why couldn't they just voice that in Cuba?

Do you mean that the Cuban government never opened their ports for them to leave? Dave... that's quite a selective view of reality there brother.

Right and most Cubans usually sail on floating juke and innertubes to Florida for the fun of it.

The soccer field executions- now that sounds like what Pinochet was doing to plenty of Chileans in the 70s after he led a CIA-supported coup that you are somehow trying to equate to big, bad, Cuba making a big fuss in Bolivia.

It didn't happen? You may have a point as couldn't find a direct reference but for those keeping score at home:

Cubans killed by Cuba Over 100,000

Chileans killed by Chilean government 3,100

http://www.geocities.com/policraticus/

US meddling in other's business = BAD

Any nation meddling in other's business = BAD

Any body meddling in other nation's business = BAD

Got it?

Never said the U.S. should never meddle abroad as many nations would not be free if the U.S. did nothing. I'd actually approve of say Vietnam invading Cambodia to stop Pol Pot or Tanzania to stop Adi Amin.

Freedom is a clichéd word used often in replacement of maintaining our interests abroad. Of course, there are exceptions are there not?

Here's a more detailed and non-militarized account: (Cuba)

Extrajudicial assassinations 1,203 Deaths in prisons 2,119 Missing and disappeared 198

Total : 3520

Absolutely too many.

Here's a blogged compilation of Pinochet, one tally, and other tidbits.

Monsters abound on 'both sides'.

Whatever those sides are...

[HAL 9000 96]

It was easy because Allende was a disaster and had lost most of the middle class. No mystery there.

Easy? And that justifies the installation of a dictator? Yeah... right.

Again... if I stated that Cuba has a free system... then things would be a lot different wouldn't they?

yea because the legacy of USA exploitative neocolonialist practices still remains...

USA might think of el CHE as a terrorist... but many Americans don't know, or try not to, how America pillaged Latin America, and how many people died because of USA... i.e Pinochet

Yeah Yeah Yeah America bad, got it. I have heard this song a time or two. This has become more about your dislike for America than about Che.

We Americans are rightly proud of our historical achievements, and recognizing our failures or the wrongs we've done to others is the mature approach towards history. We're not perfect and talking about our imperfections doesn't make us bad. If that were true, every person who has been critical of the current U.S. policies, both foreign and domestic is then expressing anti-American sentiment. You can't have it both ways.

What???, I am not asking to have it both ways. Sure we need to be critical too but often people who have such a dislike for America only b1itch about America. We were talking about Che and Pedro keeps pointing out things that America did, like its supposed to justify Che's actions or something.

America's banana republic tactics in South America were one of the reasons that created inequality among the social classes, and el Che saw that..

read United Fruit Company.. there are a lot of documented cases of how they bribed politicians in those countries...

oops.. posted in J's account again lol

Por qué odias al progreso??

[alienlovechild 75]

They DO voice it in Cuba.

Really? You haven't given any sort of proof. Here's plenty to back everything I stated before.

"Human rights in Cuba are a subject of much debate. In practise, repression is "written into Cuban law" according to Human Rights Watch.[1]

Human Rights Watch is among international human rights organizations accusing the Cuban regime of systematic human rights abuses, including torture, arbitrary imprisonment, unfair trials, and extrajudicial executions (a.k.a. "El Paredón").[1][2][3]

Cuban law harshly limits freedom of expression, association, assembly, movement, and the press. There is no due process; the judicial system is constitutionally subordinate to the government. The government maintains tight control on religious institutions, affiliated groups, and individual believers[1]. Censorship is tight, resulting in one of the lowest ratings on the 2008 Press Freedom Index.[4] Internet censorship is enforced by surveillance and permits.[5] Most emigration is illegal."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_rights_in_Cuba

You need to be more specific as to where your numbers come from. What's the breakdown? Are these military deaths from the actual armed struggle? Civilians victimized by the regime?

I gave the high number for executions but the Cuban government has had tight grip on power so it doesn't necessarily have to kill you to ruin your life.

"According to Che Guevara: A Biography, Che Guevara alone said that he was responsible for "several thousand" executions during the first year.[23] British historian Hugh Thomas, in his study Cuba or the pursuit of freedom[24] stated that "perhaps" 5,000 executions had taken place by 1970,[22] whilst The World Handbook of Political and Social Indicators ascertained that there had been 2,113 political executions between the years of 1958-67.[22] The author of the Historical Atlas, an online personal compilation of various sources, concludes: The dividing line between those who have an axe to grind and those who don't falls in the 5,000-12,000 range"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_rights_in_Cuba