algeria K1 visa... this is a problem

[jimmal 0]

here is an update...

I will be leaving for Algeria on Wednesday... but there is a new development with my fiances mother. she has decided to try to introduce another man to my fiance to marry. she invited the mother and son to their house on wednesday in an attempt to push her to marry. I was suppose to meet the mother and father on saturday.. but mom has other plans and is starting to panic.

My fiance will go to the family and try to explain the misunderstanding.. she is commited to me and what we want to do. the good part is that the father is open to the marriage visa and the conditions. my fianee has assured me that she will fix it.. but this mother will be a thorn in my #### until I am married..

I appreciate all of the possitive feedback and support. it really has helped me a lot . I just need to study the marriage visa more.. and see what I need to bring with me.

I am nervous about going and not being welcome... but we are very commited to this.. so don't worry friends.. there will be more to come.

[chrisc85 0]

here is an update...

I will be leaving for Algeria on Wednesday... but there is a new development with my fiances mother. she has decided to try to introduce another man to my fiance to marry. she invited the mother and son to their house on wednesday in an attempt to push her to marry. I was suppose to meet the mother and father on saturday.. but mom has other plans and is starting to panic.

My fiance will go to the family and try to explain the misunderstanding.. she is commited to me and what we want to do. the good part is that the father is open to the marriage visa and the conditions. my fianee has assured me that she will fix it.. but this mother will be a thorn in my #### until I am married..

I appreciate all of the possitive feedback and support. it really has helped me a lot . I just need to study the marriage visa more.. and see what I need to bring with me.

I am nervous about going and not being welcome... but we are very commited to this.. so don't worry friends.. there will be more to come.

yeah, thats rough. i was terrified of something happening like that with my fiancee, but her parents already approved so i dont feel her being married off is very likely at this point, knock on wood, but im still working on getting her here asap.

as far as going to meet the parents, it can be scary, but just be yourself, smile and be friendly, polite, courteous, respectful, show them without words that you are the guy that her parents would want their daughter to marry. its very good that your fiancee is committed to you the way you say she is. have faith in your girl to have the strength to do what is right for her and show the parents how good of a husband you will be. show the parents you respect their views, and they will probably be more likely to respect yours too. if you do this it cant go wrong. dont worry

[chrisc85 0]

and you should definitely bring a gift too, like flowers, a cake, and in Morocco I brought coned sugar too which is really traditional (it represents the purity of the relationship) but I dont know if Algeria does the same thing, but find out their traditions and do it. itll show respect and the family will honor and respect you more as both a foreigner and a potential son-in-law.

Edited June 21, 2009 by chrisc85

[Henia 11]

Esalaams,

Getting legally married in Algeria is very difficult thing - I would not go that route. I did it ... took me years. K-1 is faster ... but if you were married and able to stay in DZ for 6m then DCF is the fastest.

Hope you are able to throu this!

[Henia 11]

PS Algerians as many other MENA ppl seek to find best for their children in marriage. So ye very common for mothers to itroduce others for marriage to their children if even they are committed. Get used to it. BTW are you American or Algerian descent? Makes alot of difference too ... I live here I know alot. I'm married to my husband with kids but still they are thorn in my a%% years later. Marriage won't cure that up a bit!

[jimmal 0]

I am a us citizen but my parents are lebanese and italian. my fiance's parents see me as an outsider and are scared to lose their daughter. can they force her to marry another??Is it a long process to get married in the civil ceremony in algeria? Henia

I like the idea of a gift.. thanks chris

Her family will never accept a K1 visa because of their traditions. but we may be pushed in that direction. everything will depend on this trip and how receptive they will be to me. Her mother changes her mind every week about me. she invites me for baklava later she sais not to come. really a nut case.

what exactly is dcf???

thanks again

[chrisc85 0]

wait for henia's and others' responses definitely, but im pretty sure that its forbidden in islam to actually "force" marriage. i think this is confused a lot. approval and acceptance is more the norm and im pretty sure they cant "force" it per say, its forbidden. but they can certainly influence and encourage her decision by bugging and nagging incessantly about it. its one of those grey areas more or less. no "forcing" but "encouraging" through nagging, etc. technically, if she doesnt accept herself, there is no marriage.

haha the mom does sound like one hell of a character. well shes just worried and confused and doesnt really know what to do herself. she knows she doesnt know you well yet and is still curious about you but doesnt want to make the wrong decision about her daughter either. shes probably just as nervous as you are. she might be worried that shell hardly ever see her daughter again. try to make it clear that you are willing to make at least semi-frequent visits so she can be close with her family, and that you want to make an effort to be close to them too. show connection to the family and their culture. greet them in arabic or the local dialect, even if only a few words, say youre trying to learning arabic (you might be fluent already for all i know, are you? that would be great) or even the local algerian dialect which is more 'personal' in a way. tell them about your lebanese background and show interest. dont forget to smile, a REAL smile haha

ask your girl about things too, she knows her culture and especially her parents better than anyone. im sure she can give you good advice. i didnt speak much arabic or darija when i met my fiancees parents, so i didnt really say much, i just sat with good posture and smiled a lot (very shyly lol) and it was funny because the whole time she would say very casually in english everything that i should be doing without her parents knowing what she was saying, e.g., while cleaning up the tea stuff from the table, without even looking at me: "ok chris, shake his hand and kiss him on the forehead". haha it was nervewracking but she walked me through it and it went fine. plus, bringing the flowers, cake, and 6 cones of sugar certainly helped too, she said it earned me a lot of respect from her parents, especially the sugar. im sure you get the point of it all.

Edited June 21, 2009 by chrisc85

[Henia 11]

Esalaams,

Well being even half arab that is some good quality in the eyes of your future family. So maybe try to play on that in this area.

I met my husband in 2003 ... we married in 2006 after 3 yrs of going throu the wilaya (state), then the capital Alger. It's really hard here since even there are set laws ... people make up their own. Every desk your case lands on they give yet another problem or document to get, etc. And for you (thou I assume you are Muslim) being a man marrying an Algerian they will make even MORE harder then they did for me. And by chance you are not Muslim, then legally you cannot marry her in Algeria.

For me, the marriage process went like this: (But I know some ppl on here got married in Algeria within 1month thou either paying alot money (bribes) or knowing an offical. But if the family doesn't want you to marry the girl then NO offical will help you.

1. We went to the city police, we had to register that I was living in Algeria (you do this even if you have no desire to live here) You need to prove your residency ... if you live with in-laws or friends they need to offically write doc stating them. Have these in 3s stamped at the town hall.

2. You go with the doc that you get from the police (whenever you get them) to the town hall, applying for marriage. There you fill out million 1 forms, with stamps (that cost 500d each), photos 12 of each, papers supporting your income (as you are foreinger male), premission is needed from girl's wali (father or other guardian) no matter her age or if she was previously married. If they don't agree then you are in ######'s creek, sorry to say. My father is dead, so they gave me hassle for this ... I have no brother or uncle either that are Muslim to act as my wali. So I had to go to court to legally appoint one for myself. This took 1,5yr in court.

3. The review the file then send it to the wilaya (state capital) where the fiancee lives. For me it was Tipaza. There they will review the file ... they are supposed to notify you but many times they don't ... so you need to follow up on this ... you will have interview there with offical ... our timeline to get from my town to wilaya was 7m ... not counting the 1,5 yr in court to appoint me a wali.

4. In the wilaya they will approve you or not ... depends on how strong case you give and how they feel about you. If approved, it goes to Alger capital to processed again.

5. Our timeline for that was was again 7m. There again, interview ... and also approved or not.

6. If approved there case goes back to your town, to the town hall where THEY MUST obey the ruling of the wilaya and capital. For us, the offical decided no, he wouldn't honour it etc ... etc, so we were forced to take it to court, which took us again more then one yr.

7. If you go to court, again have to state our case have interview with judge ... if approved the case is then sent to the wilaya then state yet AGAIN.

8. If they do obey the ruling, you can then go to the marriage hall for the offical marriage. But if you go throu the court, then you will have no offical ceremony. They record the date from the time you state you got the nikah (islamic marriage with the imam) This is common here since many ppl before didn't bother registering the marriage until a child was born, or in case of divorce or inheritance issues, etc. Back habit from the olden days.

Sorry to say Algerians are like this, how you decribed them ... one minute kissing your @$$ then next minute acting like they donnot know you. I would beware of the gift giving since I made this mistake ... only have ppl only want to be my friend for gifts, etc. Women actually sent lists of stuff to ask for ... shampoo, hair dryer, makeup, etc ... insulting. Men can be same way ... always wanting to "borrow money" from the rivh foreigner (ironically they are probably richer then you and me both LOL) Profite as they call here. They love to profit ... reason for the weird behaviour of your in-laws: they want the richest man for their daughter of course. Even if you are rich, I would not let on to that. Give her the agreed upon mahr)dowry) but no more ... give her more once you are married. Happens here alot, they ask for big mahrs ... married for a bit then the come up some excuse to leave you with the mahr. I'm here 3 yrs ... saw this happen already 7x!!! I know if I were you and smart present yourself ... make the gifts to BARE min to the mother and father, maybe siblings ONLY! Something small ... if you overdo it they will except this ... and allowing girl to marry you would then depend on your gifts ... so plz do yourself favour AVOID this!

Also o coned sugar (or whatevr) gift .... Here it's gold or nothing. Nothing less is excepted. So again beware! A sign of man's love here is more dresses, more gold, shoes, purses, etc. No symbols ... all about the dinars.

AGain not sure if you Muslim, but I would play the Islamic card ... having marriage based on the example of the Prophet's daughter ... simple mahr nothing fancy. Make them feel shy to ask you for blood and sweat (believe they will try) ...

Remember if ou get married here you are EXCEPTED to shell out for the whole 3 day wedding (feeding ppl, killgin sheep, her dresses, makeup and for all her female family too, cakes, renting the hall and cars, photos, videtaping, etc etc)None of this is cheap. One dress (and they have least 7) starts from 300$ so times that by 7. Hair and makeup for wedding is about $130, cakes run you probably $300 for the whole thing, one sheep but you might need more then one run about $200, etc etc list goes on and on.

And not to mention the stupid traditions they have here ... like the first comsummtion, etc.

I am not trying to scare you or discourage you, merely save you alot of time and money - I know I wish I would have been married in the US or least Tunis. Tunis take you shorter time (max 2months) ...

Like I said I've been here for 3plus yrs so if you have any question I have answers enchallah. Here or in PM.

PS Yes islam forbids forced marriages BUT that doesn't mean it doesn't happen. Girls here are very ignorant of their rights ... and they follow parents all the time. Even if they do things they don't want to. So again BEWARE!!!!!

DCF - direct consular filing. Meaning you are resident of 6months or more in Algeria and married. You can file direct from Alger saving much time - case goes from consular to visa center ...

[Henia 11]

To earn respect of Algerian parents: Be islamically correct, cordial, want to learn more about their culture (they have some complex that they are prefect) don't try to correct them, compliment the hostess cooking and thank her for invitation ,etc. But more important be man to man with the father - everything lays with the father. Mother doesn't like you OK ... you can overcome this, but if father doesn't NO way to overcome this. Man talk or engage the father on various topics you see that he is interested in (ex: he is carpentar, ask about his work, etc)

And when coming to invite bring fruit ... don't bother with desserts ... BRING fruit. Best option. Second option is meat/fish. Flowers for mother is OK but not something usually done here.

[Henia 11]

its not a disaster, it would have been a disaster if you went ahead with your plans before asking and doing research. As it is, you have the opportunity to AVOID a disaster and get it all done correctly. Can you hurry and get married when you are there next week? then you could come back and file the spousal visa paperwork and everything should be fine....

Get married in Algeria!!!! Its the best way.

thanks for everyones feedback... this is a disaster...the only option that I have is to marry her there and return.. and hope the parents will accept me doing this...or else she will have to leave her family dishonorably.

She will be married, her parents should not find this dishonorable. Dishonorable would of been the other way, it will work out.

Getting engaged then later getting married is in fashion here. If he does this, she cannot get married to another. Getting engaged here means:

Having the nikah (with imam) but not the walima (many do that later) But if as you say parents traditional then the won't go into this. I don't know or your situation so I cannot give you advice just tell how things work here. If she is worth it, FIGHT for her!

I would love to marry her next week... but what can I do if the mother refuses... in algeria parental permission is everything.. and she has said repeatedly.. not until next summer... I hope she will listen when I explain the situation.. thanks for all of the feedback.. I appreciate the support

Legally there is NO way you could marry her next week. Have the nikah yes, legal civil marriage no. Doesn't work like that here. ESP as I said you are male foreigner. Muslim or arabe or not ...

Also if you tell me what you mean by her parents traditional - I could give more input. Are they religous traditional or Algerian traditionalist?

[chrisc85 0]

yes it is true keep in mind that the amount of wealth on your side may very well be a contributing factor. it didnt matter for me, her parents knew i was studying abroad and wouldnt graduate until this past may, but i think this is the exception rather than the rule. and there are differences between morocco and algeria of course as well as between families so keep that in mind as well. like i said talk to her. and also yeah if you arent muslim you will have to convert especially since you are the guy and she is the girl.

Edited June 21, 2009 by chrisc85

[jimmal 0]

wow.. great information from chris and hennia.. thanks so much.. its nice to have friends who know the area.

I am recently converted to being muslim. I am not an expert but I know the basics. Her father is very open to meeting me but the mother is a pitbul on steroids and is nagging my fiance to stay in the house and not talk to me. The mother is a very traditional muslim woman and the husband is more modern and much quieter. The mother has gone back and fourth with accepting me to marry Ahlem. I don't excpect to get married next week.. but I thought that we can at least start some paperwork and get the parents approval. now, mother has invited a woman and her son to marry Ahlem. She told me not to worry about this but wanted more time to clean the mess. I will be arriving on Thursday and she feels that she will not have time to give me until Sunday. I will be in Annaba and my arabic is poor . My french isn't much better. so, I will be relying on Ahlems help with translating. I feel that mother will try to interfere until we are married. Is it really possible to overcome the mom?? she is really persistant and pushy. she told my fiance to tell me to not come to algeria.

Anyways... there is some background info. its not pretty but we do love each other ... and when she tells me that .. the world is a perfect place.

thanks for reading

[Henia 11]

Esalaams and MABROUK to your new conversion into Islam,

May the God make your marriage a joyous one. And enchallah you will be able to get over the mother.

OK so here are my points:

1, Algeria is such a country. It takes just 10 days by car to reach from tip to bottom. So there ARE differences. While Morocco is a neighbour, Algeria and Algerians are very different then Moroccans or even other neighbours. If your fiancee is from Annaba, that's close to Tunezia ... so they have little more in common with Tunezians then Moroccans. But again Algerians are unique ppl to say the least.

2. Again, what do you mean by traditional? There are 2 types ... Algeria tradtions are different then traditions of Islam. COMPLETELY different. So if you can tell me which MIL is ... more I can give some insight into her thinking. But again MOST but not all Algerians are Algerian traditionalists not Islamic traditionalists.

Algerian traditionalist (mothers) want the most for their children of course, like all mothers but they look into the financial gain ... well simply cos of the traditional role of the women staying home tending to the home then later children - the men work. So of course for her better her SIL is a banker not a labourer, get what I mean?

And again, (Algerian) traditional speaking for MIL it's better daughter stays in Algeria, in Annaba then go with "new Muslim guy" who is half-arab, to who knows where countr where he will do who knows what with her, etc etc. Simple thinking. And these are very simple people. Her status as mother and when her duaghter gets married means all the world to these women ... having her daughter the biggest wedding, most the dresses, most gold etc etc is so important here. As I said before more money he (the Son-in-law) spents on her, the MIL, female famil members and the whole wedding its self the more the bride is looked upon as "loved" and "valuable" ... Like in the olden days, a virgin bride would get more mahr and attention then a divorced bride would.

And let's face it, here in Algeria men RULE. As in most of MENA. Most of my in-laws cannot even go outside. Leaving the home for the hammam(public baths) and gathering is like something more important then it should be LOL! The women's role here is simple marry, cook, clean have children, do what dh says. So the wedding is really the only time they have to be shine as princesses. And I donnot blame them. Education has not been a major focus here. I know most of my in-laws the women I see they have potential to be better ppl but they are discouraged. Marriage is higher on the importance scale then education. But that's most not all.

So if Ahlem marrys something Algerian from her city, MIL gets to play fairy godmother waving her wand creating this Cinderella wedding for her thus reliving her dreams of her wedding, etc etc. You marrying her OK maybe you will fork out the cash for the glam wedding, but from your side who will show? If even all your family comes, MIL won't know them, be able to relate to them etc. And also there will be TALK from the relatives about you, your orgins, your conversion ... everything and anything they can pick at. But then again, maybe MIL will quite down and try to get to know you for the real you. Then finally explain to the relatives how nice it her foreign SIL ... son marrying foreigner and/or living aboard is status symbol so why cannot daughter be too?

And winnning more MIL I really would not worry on this. She may do things (as you stated before) BUT everthing rests in father's opionion of you. He and only he will say YES or NO to marrying his duaghter. MIL can do all the BS she wants in the end it's father word (in imam's eyes, in court, within the family) Win MIL over once you 2 married, by her see how her daughter is happy (REALLY happy not just fake happy as I see many women here) ... and type of man you are, etc etc. If she sees this she will shut up.

If you know French, that's fine. People will speak darja here but French most know as well. Remember your esalaams, lebass?cava? Elhamdullah, darkoum cava? and you will be fine. And what arabe/derja you know, I would not let on ... easier to get info b listening to ppl when they think you donnot know the language (you really find out the truth what they think). And if you donnot know French well, talking with hands and feet is best. Or bringing in MALE who can translate ... I would not count on Ahlem for that. Not cos I'm saying donnot trust her BUT more for show to the parents of how serious Muslim and man you are , etc. An imam or some pious brother who speaks English is best choice. ANd again play the Muslim card.Evn if you are new Muslim, new Muslims are highly regarded persons. And I would not talk too much on LOVE to them ... love means little here. If you talk too much on love, you will just embaress yourself. Love = lust. So to them it means I'm to be fk your daughter (sorry too much info). I would focus on your goals together, Islam and your relations with the new future family. This is important here.

And also who is saying all these things, your fiancee or the parents? If its her telling you their side, then NO O you are doing it all wrong my friend. YOU MUST go straight to thefather in regards to his daughtr. Ask him premission to marry her, visit her etc. You canot show up in their house just like that = a fast hell NO form them. Respectful to them you talk directly to them (to father) not throu fiancee.

And no matter what MIL says/does I know have a backup plan ... when you come to Algeria ... are you staying with them?> Or elsewhere ... I would have backup plan ... for your benefit. And you mentioned MIL wants fiancee to stay in house, not met you? Did you plan to met her outside? If so PLZZZZZZZZ donnot, this could get you beat up or worst. Things like this donnot go here ... ye you will see some horseplay with young ppl but for ppl serious on marriage: YOU GO STRAIGHT TO THE FATHER, ASK FOR MEETING WITH HIM ON HIS TERMS. THEN GO FROM THERE. (Rmemeber dating in Algeria is SMSing each other or fon calls, rarely ever going out in public together. Happens more so in Alger, but not in the bled. So I would not even try that. I would do it all the traditional way - court her. If not for her or your benefit but for the family. And again again I want to SAY it's UP to the father to ALLOW her to marry you. Ye there is no FORCING marriage here but influence YESSS and without his verbal and written consent there is NO Imam or court to marry you.

I cannot think of anything else now to write ... if I thik of something I will come back. If you have more questions ...

PS If father agreed to nikah, can't you go to Tunezia (Tunis)for the civil marriage? Since it's close?

[Henia 11]

Also another cultural tibit: Not saying your fiancee is like this but it's fashionable here to play up themselves (woman and their MILs) to make men think other men are hunting after them - that their so desirable. When really they are not. You should know, if you donnot already most men donnot marry here until mid to late 30s or in their 40s since they cannot afford to (all the exceptions) thus women marry later as well. Most families are more then happy to have their daughters married ... not many go from one suitor to the next. I have seen this more in Alger where its more liberal or around Oran. Annaba more traditional bled you know. Sure there will be "dating" as I said SMS and fon calls, etc but nothing formal like the man actuall going to the family home UNLESS it is something set. NO ONE and I know mean NO ONE here will allow a chance of dishonour in their home. Thus the reason for the quick engagements here: Man comes to home, asks for hand in marriage.Next day father brings imam, imam does nikah (Islamic marriage) then the preparations for the walima (wedding or as it's called here arossa) begins. Engagement time could last weeks (and I am not including the civil paperwork time here just the traditions) or maybe years depending on fast the man can get the money together for the arossa.

I know you are a guy and but if you plan on marrying her there, well least take look at this www ... get a feel to what the tradition excepts.... Ask your fiancee about or even google it. I am sure there are many videos. Believe me it's well worth your time.

http://www.monmaghreb.com/mariage_algerien.htm

And a recap of "traditional" wedding here in Algeria:

1.Couple met somehow

2. Man asks to met father of bride to ask for marriage

3. If father agrees, imam is called in to talk to groom on his rights, duties, mahr, etc. If agreed bride is called in room, the fatiha is said. They are now Islamic married (and by Islam allowed martial relations but by Algerian traditions no)

4. Traditional then an engagement party is made in the evening after the nikah (above) Women prepare a feast, then cakes for coffee/tea afterwards. Guests arrive around Maghreb. Some bring gifts but not all. Some families men and women eat together, while others no. Varies.

5. The next day the groom takes the bride to buy "her gold" major or small part of her mahr. He also buys dressy suits (not the wedding dresses).

6. Varies by family but same day or after she gets ready for her engagement party: going to get hair done, makeup, hammam, etc.Big cake is made. At this party bride and groom are presented together "engaged" and the MIL and sister laws present the bride with her mahr (dressy suits with matching shoes, purse, hair piece, gold, are given ... usually like 5 or more enough to fill 2 suitcases if not more is traditional) More she gets more she is looked on as loved. Usually every known female member of bride's family and future inlaws, neighbours, everyone comes is invited to see her mahr.

Henna is done on the bride in this traditional yet NOT Islamic ceremony. Couple cut the cake together and drink juice American style as American drink champagne at wedding.

7. After this is the time for the bride to get fitted for her - takes as long as it takes depends on groom's wallet

8. Night before wedding again feast is prepared, same as above.

9. MOrning of arossa bride gets dolled up again, in the afternoon cars (caravan of cars) come to take her to new home. Video taping of course, car decorated with flowers, horns, music, etc. She is dressed in a white cape covering one of her wedding dresses.

10. From here varies, either take her to straight to her partyy or to her new home to see it.

11. She has 2 suitcases full of dresses no less then 7 is acceptable - she goes to wedding hall. All women there all dolled up. Nights before cakes were preapred. Here she parades around in her wdding dresses while soda, then doffee then tea is served with cakes. This takes about 6 plus hours.

12. Then she is driven back to new home where new family greet her. She then bathed and dressed in her "first night" lingerie. Then after icha she goes to her husband. They do the "do" Some traditions (again this varies) family is outside door listening in ... doing YOU-YOUs for every motion sound etc. They did this to me. Completely hated it.

13. Nect morning, bride's MIL or SIL take down the bed ... some regions sheets put out for all to see virgin's blood ... but this is old tradition and not Islamic at all. Check about this. Family prepares couple their first breakfast. Then her new life begins. She is given 40 days to do no work in the home, but to "learn" how things are done in the new home. And the rest is as you know ....

[Henia 11]

Again this the GENERAL wedding outline. May vary somewhat by region and their ethnical group(arabe, kabyle, chaouia ,etc) Also varied on your wallet, what is excepted and what you can forego, etc.