Victim Allegedly Raped By U.S. Soldiers was Only 15

[Ban Hammer 13,346]

link 1

link 2 (no wonder fish didn't see it - it's fox news!

link 3 - same reason

[Veiled Princess 1]

Curiously enough I wasn't referring to the non-native english speakers

I don't know if I should laugh or cry... English is my native language!!

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

Well reading between the lines you might draw your attention to the following:

"Since 2003, coalition forces have recovered approximately 500 weapons munitions which contain degraded mustard or sarin nerve agent. Despite many efforts to locate and destroy Iraq's pre-Gulf War chemical munitions, filled and unfilled pre-Gulf War chemical munitions are assessed to still exist."

"The purity of the agents inside the munitions depends on many factors, including the manufacturing process, potential additives and environmental storage conditions. While agents degrade over time, chemical warfare agents remain hazardous and potentially lethal,"

The weapons are thought to be manufactured before 1991 so they would not be proof of an ongoing WMD program in the 1990s. But they do show that Saddam Hussein was lying when he said all weapons had been destroyed, and it shows that years of on-again, off-again weapons inspections did not uncover these munitions.

"This does not reflect a capacity that was built up after 1991," the official said, adding the munitions "are not the WMDs this country and the rest of the world believed Iraq had, and not the WMDs for which this country went to war."

Now it seems to me - that degraded, pre-gulf war WMD (still dangerous of course) is not exactly the same as active programme of industrial production and research and development.

The issue is still the same - a significant reason for Bush et al's justification of the war was WMD. More specifically it was the idea that Saddam Hussein was not only continuing to stockpile illegal weapons but actively engaged in manufacturing news ones and (here's the crucial bit) was operating an R&D programme to ensure the delivery of biological/chemical/nuclear agents on US soil. This while indicative of Saddam's dishonesty (hardly a surprise) is hardly a smoking gun IMO.

This was IMO one of the reasons the administration kept associating Iraq with 9/11, despite there being no proof whatsoever that Al Qaeda had any significant links there whatsoever.

Noone is arguing that Saddam was not a brutal tyrant who killed thousands of people, just asking people to be objective and (dare I say it) honest.

Its all a matter of public record - what was said and put into the public domain is all there for the taking. This report does not prove Bush was right. That said, moving the goal posts (after the fact) to suggest that the government said something other than they did is just dishonest IMO - and a prime example of Orwellian Doublethink at work...

Edited July 5, 2006 by Fishdude

[Ban Hammer 13,346]

The weapons are thought to be manufactured before 1991 so they would not be proof of an ongoing WMD program in the 1990s. But they do show that Saddam Hussein was lying when he said all weapons had been destroyed, and it shows that years of on-again, off-again weapons inspections did not uncover these munitions.

ah guess you ignored that part. so if he lied about this, what else did he lie about?

oh btw, once you know how to produce it, one does not have a brain fart and forget how.

Edited July 6, 2006 by charlesandnessa

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

Hmmmm... selective reading again are we?

This while indicative of Saddam's dishonesty (hardly a surprise) is hardly a smoking gun IMO.

Happy to debate this, but unfortunately I don't think you are. Also not a surprise.

I stand by my comment. Feel free to disagree.

[Ban Hammer 13,346]

Hmmmm... selective reading again are we?

This while indicative of Saddam's dishonesty (hardly a surprise) is hardly a smoking gun IMO.

Happy to debate this, but unfortunately I don't think you are. Also not a surprise.

I stand by my comment. Feel free to disagree.

it's ok fishdude i know it goes against your programming to admit bush might have been right

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

He wasn't right. As I said - feel free to peruse the speeches and comments made during the build up to war.

Prescence of decaying chemical and biological agents does not amount to an active production and R&D programme - which we were that told he had.

Edited July 6, 2006 by Fishdude

[almaty 19]

bush was not right...he lied and ..most of the previous naive americans have turned against him...see lastest poll figures

[Ban Hammer 13,346]

He wasn't right. As I said - feel free to peruse the speeches and comments made during the build up to war.

Prescence of decaying chemical and biological agents does not amount to an active production and R&D programme - which we were that told he had.

keep that thought in mind. i'm sure they'll find something or evidence that it was moved to another country (syria comes to mind).

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

I find it disturbing that living as we do in an age where information is instantaneously recorded and more readily available than at any point in human history that people choose to ignore information that is a matter of public record and substitute their own subjective interpretations in a way that obliterates the original words and context to suit their own personal biases.

As I said - its extremely Orwellian.

keep that thought in mind. i'm sure they'll find something or evidence that it was moved to another country (syria comes to mind).

Sure but if this programme was as extensive as was claimed - you would think that moving infrastructure and materials would be more than a minor blip on the radar.

If they do find evidence of an 'advanced industrial production and R&D operation together with delivery systems capable of hitting US soil I'll be the first to congratulate him'.

[Ban Hammer 13,346]

-snide remark deleted as it's not pertinent-

Sure but if this programme was as extensive as was claimed - you would think that moving infrastructure and materials would be more than a minor blip on the radar.

If they do find evidence of an 'advanced industrial production and R&D operation together with delivery systems capable of hitting US soil I'll be the first to congratulate him'.

making chemical and especially biological weapons does not require a great deal of infrastructure nor space. one person can make plenty of anthrax in a bathtub sized container in a small room, given the proper training and equipment. so movement of such would hardly be noticed.

as far as a delivery system capable of hitting us soil, one lunatic in a cropduster could do that, and we already have experience at how easily someone can train to be a pilot, and single engine crop dusters are a dime a dozen for rental.

Edited July 6, 2006 by charlesandnessa

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

As I said, specific claims were made, the transcripts of which are freely available to anyone who wants to seek them out.

The presence of (decaying) chemical / biological agents simply does not equate to the smoking gun that has eluded this government for the last 3 years.

[46]

Where have I ever stated or insinuated that I "dislike Jews" ????? Provide the link, or retract.

With ease.

Link

To jog the old memory.

Well, I think it should be pointed out that in the case of the Jewish religion, it's the Holocaust that is considered "sacred," rather than its holidays or prominent figures.

It's as if one stated, "in Islam it's strapping a bomb to your chest and blowing-up a Baghdad market that's sacred, not Mecca or Allah." I wonder if a Muslim would find that offensive? I wonder if the person making the statement would be considered anti-Islamic.

Look what you posted too:

Where have I EVER made "anti-semitic" statements, OR "denied the Holocaust" (either in outright terms OR by insinuation) ?????

Deja vu all over again.

To which I reponded:

Any questioning of or attempt to do objective studies of the Holocaust is a jailable offense in most European countries. (What about that much-lauded "freedom of speech," ET ? )

I believe that had you not referred to forbidden studies on the holocaust as "objective," I would have no grounds for my accusations. However, you did.

1. Holocaust denial and other pro-nazi revisions of history are banned in many European nations.

2. You state that, "objective studies of the holocaust (are) jailable offense(s)."

Therefore, I can conclude that you believe holocaust denial or other pro-nazi revisionist views of history are objective.

---

You, wife_of_mahmoud, are an anti-Semite.

Well well well if it isn't VJ's own self-styled Simon Wiesenthal wannabe, tirelessly fantasizing anti-Semites in every cappuccino machine and under every blade of grass. Guess you received your red alert on the Hilltop Youth Hotline.

You, Gerard, are a pompous, pathetic, pretensive, prevaricating pontificator.

And you're still smarting from the spanking you got on that thread, aren't you ? It's hilarious that you are the one who fled the thread (after being throroughly dusted up in your ridiculously lame attempt to accuse me of "anti-Semitism") but now you think people may have forgotten enough, or be lazy enough not to read the entire thing, to allow you the leeway to take a small part of it (not to mention out of context) to continue shrieking your baseless accusations and pointing your quavering bony finger of Doom. You read like a Zionist Jerry Falwell.

Anyone who cares to know the truth about you can read the entire thread, and get a firsthand education in the type of smear tactics commonly used to try to shout down anyone who dares disagree with or question anything the Zionist Thought Police have ordered us to believe, including anyone who tries to objectively study the Holocaust without beginning and ending with the Three Sacred Tenets.

Go ahead and play your game -- anagram/reparse/"retranslate"/take my sentences out of context, and just create new phrases that you hope could actually support your hallucinations of Nazi stormtroopers in whatever it is I really write. We could even give you extra points for the "hard" letters of "q" and "x", like in Scrabble.

Of course, according to you, ANYone who criticizes the policies of the State of Israel is an anti-Semite. Well here are some more for your "master list of enemies" :

B'Tselem http://www.btselem.org

Bat Shalom: Israeli Women For Peace http://www.batshalom.org

Gush Shalom http://www.gush-shalom.org

Jewish Alliance Against the Occupation http://www.cam.org/~rsilver/jewspeakout.htm

Jewish Peace Fellowship http://www.jewishpeacefellowship.org

Jewish Voice For Peace http://www.jewishvoiceforpeace.org/

Jews Against the Occupation http://www.jatonyc.org/

Jews For a Just Peace http://www.jewsforajustpeace.com/

Jews for Justice in the Middle East http://www.cactus48.com/index.html

Jews Not Zionists http://www.jewsnotzionists.org

Neturei Karta: Jews United Against Zionism http://www.nkusa.org/

Not In My Name http://www.nimn.org

Occupied Territory http://www.occupied.org

Rabbis For Human Rights http://www.rhr.israel.net/

Search for Justice and Equality in Palestine/Israel http://www.searchforjustice.org/

Tikkun http://www.tikkun.org/

Visions for Peace with Justice in Israel/Palestine http://www.vopj.org/

Yesh Gvul: The Movement for IDF Men Refusing to Serve in the Occupied Territories http://www.yeshgvul.org/

Both my husband and I have worked with several of these groups (and others) which try to foster understanding between Israelis and Palestinians. All of them are against Israel's illegal occupation, all of them denounce Israel's policies toward the Palestinians, and all of them urge both sides to sit down together and negotiate a fair and just peace agreement that both peoples can live with.

Yes yes yes. A typical "anti-Semite."

Just ####### off.

And now, let us return the thread to its topic. (Who was it that tried to connect Israel to this discussion in the first place ? My bad -- I should have sent them packing to another thread.)

"Zionist Thought Police?"

Do they control the world? How do they affect me in Canada? Do tell about the "Zionist Thought Police."

Declaring you an anti-Semite is like shooting fish in a barrel. Even your "defense" makes it more obvious.

Zionist Thought Police.

War sucks and is never good. That's all I've got to say about that.

i have not seen any anti-semite comments from wife of mahmoud in this thread. I can't understand why this was even brought up here.

She challenged someone to link to proof of her anti-Semetic feelings. I did.

[Veiled Princess 1]

Is it necessary to quote every comment that has been made thus far to reply to a post? Does a reply really need to take up a whole page by itself?

[46]

Is it necessary to quote every comment that has been made thus far to reply to a post? Does a reply really need to take up a whole page by itself?

If I'm going to make a terrible accusation like calling someone a racist, I would like to back it up with evidence.

I'm sorry it took-up so much space though. I do dislike that on boards in general.