Mexico presidential election exit polls too close to call

[Traviesa 0]

Well, I don't really want to argue it because it doesn't have anything to do with me. I think the striking and important fact though is that, regardless of what any expert believes, in the hearts and minds of average Mexicans there is corruption in the government. That sentiment didn't start yesterday or during this election. Javier was an election judge, and told me that Calderon won in his area, but that it didn't matter because whoever such-and-such wanted to be President would be. He named a name that I can't remember. To hear him talk, I believed it. This is coming from someone who doesn't know really a whole lot about the government, or even his religion, but he knew about this. I think that says something.

[VivaMexico 0]

Well, I don't really want to argue it because it doesn't have anything to do with me. I think the striking and important fact though is that, regardless of what any expert believes, in the hearts and minds of average Mexicans there is corruption in the government. That sentiment didn't start yesterday or during this election. Javier was an election judge, and told me that Calderon won in his area, but that it didn't matter because whoever such-and-such wanted to be President would be. He named a name that I can't remember. To hear him talk, I believed it. This is coming from someone who doesn't know really a whole lot about the government, or even his religion, but he knew about this. I think that says something.

I'm not arguing either. Just having a good debate

I will grant you that most Mexicans think the government is corrupt. No doubt about it. And they are right! However, that does not mean that this election was "stolen" from 1 candidate.

I am sure that Javier believed it was rigged if he supports Lopez Obrador and wanted him to win. Lopez Obrador has been telling his supporters from the beginning that it was rigged. My question (as well as the question of experts throughout the world) is: where is the proof of this corruption, and who actually did it??? How did they sneak by all the checks and balances and international election observers to "steal" the election. It all reminds me very much of Gore supporters in 2000 whining that the election was stolen.

I'm sure that out of 30 million votes there were some irregularities, but it is very likely that these irregularites were a wash...that is to say that some benefitted each candidate. If Javier "doesn't know a whole lot about the government," why is he a expert on election fraud? Did he personally see PAN supporters tampering with votes at his polling station?

I'm more than willing to listen to charges of vote fraud if they are backed by facts. Unfortunately I haven't seen one iota of fact coming from AMLO's campaign. Why does it matter what is in the hearts of millions of Mexicans? what does that have to do with an election. The facts matter, and the fact is that more Mexicans voted for Calderon than voted for any other candidate, so while Javier may be disappointed with the outcome, that doesn't mean that the millions of Mexicans that voted for Calderon (my wife and her entire family) are not average or don't count!

Edited July 6, 2006 by VivaMexico

[w¡n9Nµ7 §£@¥€r 123]

Did he personally see PAN supporters tampering with votes at his polling station?

There are other, better, ways to 'manipulate' a count.

[Peter Miami 0]

Does Mexico have a President ye?

[Artegal 1]

Yes George Dubya Bush is the new Mexican President, since there are 20 Million Illegal Mexicans in the USA, and god knows how many are already here legally, and then the 43% of the mexicans inside mexico that want to come to the USA--and since the Bush plan would gradually make it so all the illegal mexicans are one day legal citizens of the USA, the best and real president of the Mexican people is George Dubya Bush.

[Artegal 1]

Yes George Dubya Bush is the new Mexican President, since there are 20 Million Illegal Mexicans in the USA, and god knows how many are already here legally, and then the 43% of the mexicans inside mexico that want to come to the USA--and since the Bush plan would gradually make it so all the illegal mexicans are one day legal citizens of the USA, the best and real president of the Mexican people is George Dubya Bush.

[Artegal 1]

Yes George Dubya Bush is the new Mexican President, since there are 20 Million Illegal Mexicans in the USA, and god knows how many are already here legally, and then the 43% of the mexicans inside mexico that want to come to the USA--and since the Bush plan would gradually make it so all the illegal mexicans are one day legal citizens of the USA, the best and real president of the Mexican people is George Dubya Bush.

[zuni 0]

whoever wins..there be trouble made by the loser

[Traviesa 0]

Evidently, Calderon isn't the golden boy that we all assumed. Javier says he used to be the Secretary of Energy and ended up "stealing" millions of pesos for his brother or brother-in-law to start some business....I knew there had to be something.

[VivaMexico 0]

Evidently, Calderon isn't the golden boy that we all assumed. Javier says he used to be the Secretary of Energy and ended up "stealing" millions of pesos for his brother or brother-in-law to start some business....I knew there had to be something.

Ah yes, and since Lopez Obrador said it it must be true! Again, never proven or backed up by facts. Perhaps there is something else???

Did he personally see PAN supporters tampering with votes at his polling station?

There are other, better, ways to 'manipulate' a count.

Point taken, but where is the proof that Calderon benefitted from any other kinds of manipulation, other than baseless charges from the loser in the race? Perhaps Hillary's vast right-wing conspiracy has emigrated to Mexico!

[w¡n9Nµ7 §£@¥€r 123]

Did he personally see PAN supporters tampering with votes at his polling station?

There are other, better, ways to 'manipulate' a count.

Point taken, but where is the proof that Calderon benefitted from any other kinds of manipulation, other than baseless charges from the loser in the race? Perhaps Hillary's vast right-wing conspiracy has emigrated to Mexico!

I'm not offering proof. I haven't heard of any. Simply pointing out that not seeing supporters tamper with votes at a polling station does not, in and of itself, eliminate the possibility of fraud. It does, of course, eliminate one possible source of fraud.

A bit ... Hillary and the VWRC should be back in business in time for the 08 elections. Can't wait, should be entertaining. I may start lurking on freerepublic and democraticunderground again, just to watch everyone lose their collective hysterical minds

[VivaMexico 0]

[

A bit ... Hillary and the VWRC should be back in business in time for the 08 elections. Can't wait, should be entertaining. I may start lurking on freerepublic and democraticunderground again, just to watch everyone lose their collective hysterical minds

Should make for good entertainment!!!

[Traviesa 0]

Evidently, Calderon isn't the golden boy that we all assumed. Javier says he used to be the Secretary of Energy and ended up "stealing" millions of pesos for his brother or brother-in-law to start some business....I knew there had to be something.

Ah yes, and since Lopez Obrador said it it must be true! Again, never proven or backed up by facts. Perhaps there is something else???

I believe there are facts. And I never heard that Obrador said anything about it. Javier seems to think it's common knowledge. These things didn't start with this election-the individuals have been in the public eye for quite some time.

[VivaMexico 0]

I believe there are facts. And I never heard that Obrador said anything about it. Javier seems to think it's common knowledge. These things didn't start with this election-the individuals have been in the public eye for quite some time.

This is an excerpt from an article that appeared in the LA Times recently. As you can see, the accusations came from Obrador and Obrador alone, and there are no facts:

"I just want to say that I'm planning to hand over a file showing Felipe's brother-in-law, his troublesome brother-in-law, has a company that works for the government," said Lopez Obrador, adding that the firm received energy contracts while Calderon was Fox's energy secretary and didn't pay taxes on $2.5 billion in company revenue.

Calderon denied the charge, as well as having engaged in any wrongdoing during his eight-month stint in Fox's Cabinet. Repeated denials in the days that followed — by Calderon and his brother-in-law, Diego Zavala — failed to clear the air and have put the Calderon campaign on the defensive.

Zavala said his company had renewed software contracts with Mexico's national oil company, Pemex, while Calderon served as energy secretary.

His firm, Hildebrando, purchased a company holding the contracts a month after Calderon took office in September 2003. The contracts were renewed in November.

Both men said there was nothing untoward about the transaction, and Calderon last week demanded that Lopez Obrador show proof of wrongdoing.

Campaigners for Lopez Obrador delivered a cardboard box of papers Friday to Calderon headquarters in a widely covered publicity stunt to back up the claim.

But the joke here is that the 400 pages of so-called proof probably mean they have none. A single incriminating page with Calderon's signature could send him to prison, but nothing of the sort has been delivered to federal prosecutors.

The brother-in-law bomb was dropped in front of 13 million TV viewers, only days before Mexico's attention was diverted by soccer's World Cup and a first-game victory Sunday by the national team.

TV watchers have since had dozens of chances to see Lopez Obrador repeat the accusations in slick ads, which all mention the "troublesome" — incomodo — brother-in-law.

The troublesome-relative label was made most famous here in the 1990s in the case of former President Carlos Salinas de Gortari's allegedly crooked older brother Raul. It is a phrase that reflects a long-standing belief that those in power share the spoils with relatives.

Federal authorities, meanwhile, are investigating the leak of confidential tax records from Zavala's firm to the Lopez Obrador campaign.

No one expects a resolution before the election. The Mexican judiciary seldom resolves such accusations with dispatch, if ever.

Besides, the issue is not so much corruption.

"This is about revenge," said Dan Lund, a Mexico City pollster.

[Traviesa 0]

Regardless of the truth or not truth of this particular accusation, the fact remains (and this is an undeniable fact) that corruption does exist in Mexico all the way up and all the way down. When I hear things like "anything is possible with money" in reference to Mexico's immigration, that is troubling to me. Corruption isn't just happening with the agencies and the cops on the streets-it's a problem straight to the top and as long as Mexicans are willing to turn a blind eye to it, they will continue to live the lives of poverty and struggle that so many of them are living right now. I think it's about time someone said something about it.