Prenup

[TBoneTX 45,267]

One aspect of "ethical protocol" to add is this: Because the concept of a prenup can be, er, foreign to a foreigner, everything needs to be explained in advance -- patiently and in simple language. Also, even in USC-USC relationships, one party should avoid suddenly springing a prenup on the other party just as the time of marriage draws nigh. Also, as has been stated, follow the laws of your state of residence.

[Gary and Alla 3,694]

hello VJ's

I just talked to my friend today and she is asking me about prenup and I don't know what to say. So I was thinking that I should share her situation here because I don't want to say something I am not sure and this site is so helpful.

She is a K1 and came here. Before their wedding her fiance let her signed a prenup, of course she felt betrayed because seems like her fiance does not trust her. So all the utility bills and savings accounts is all in his fiance's (now hubby) name. They even bought a house after they got married but still it was in her hubby's name. Now that her interview is coming for AOS and one if the requirements was proof of bonafide marriage. The only proof the she had were the health insurance, life insurance, and the tax return and pictures of course. She ask if is this enough proof. She also feared that if USCIS would find that they had a prenup, they will think that it was a sort of arranged marriage and she will be denied. Knowing that all the bills,account savings and the house (which they bought after the wedding) is in her husband's name.

Any opinion?

She has enough proof. Plenty. Some people file AOS within 2-3 days of being married, what proof do you think they have? The requirement is that yoiu are married, there is no particular requirements for evidence for the AOS.

As an aside, had my fiancee mentioned a "pre-nup" I would have said "Thank you, Goodbye" and ended the relationship. Sounds like an American thing to me and if I wanted an American wife I could have chosen one. We have a legitimate marriage which means we share everything equally, we don't need no stinking pre-nup. She should have told him to shove it.

[sojen 0]

Thank you all with your response, I know she's asking about the sufficient evidence of AOS, but I learned something about the prenup, it's legality and your point of views.

[.:MzMorgan:. 0]

We had a prenup. At my insistence. I even drafted the document. My USC husband has 10x more assets in his name. I didn't want him to think that I'm marrying him for his money and the GC. I didn't feel there was a need to disclose that in my AOS. When we filed our AOS, most of the bills were under his name because I didn't have a Social Security number yet. We opened one bank account to share, but he kept his savings in his old account.

Your friend shouldn't be offended that her husband wants to protect his hard earned assets. These days, it's just more practical to hope for the best but prepare for the worst.

I agree Wifey I think she has nothing to worry about, a lot of ppl go through with a prenup. Ppl just wanna keep it safe....it is a big step to take no matter how much u love someone. Ppl that are in relationships in the same town end up getting prenups. To me its no biggie!

[southernchic 0]

The USC spouse shouldn't let the inequality of the situation guilt him/her into not protecting themselves. Common sense people should have pre-nups in general. People should at least know what the state's laws are before getting hitched. This is esp true when someone from overseas arrives with little to nothing. Can't work. Needs lots of support and TLC to survive in the US.

That being said, both spouses needs to have realistic expectations that inequities will exist for quite some time. Spouses should also be realistic about the the levels of trust that will grow as the relationship grows. You don't arrive in the US with the exact same relationship as if you've been living in the same country for years and years.

Both spouse are making an investment. But the US citizen shouldn't allow their judgement to be clouded because of love. I can't tell you how many postings I've read about spouses who arrived in the US for only for love fur just can't bear to leave after living here for two years. Hey, I'm divorced. I didn't lose anything in the deal. But it could have easily NOT turned out that way had the state's law been different.

A pre-nup is just a common sense protection for everyone -- esp USC marrying non USCs.

S

Aside from the legality aspect of a prenup, people should not be shocked when a man/woman who has worked hard to build a nice net worth asks the other to sign a prenup. It is only smart to protect the assets that you have worked hard for your whole life, in the event that things don't work out. In the US, 50% of couples get divorced, and probably higher when it involves people of different nations, cultures, languages, customs, etc. And this is from bona fide marriages, add the greencard scamartists out there and it seems dumb not to ask your partner to sign one if you have assets.

A reasonably intelligent person should be able to understand this.

If your friend is in a liberal state, I would bet that the prenup would be unenforceable against her if she was not represented by her own lawyer.

The OP's question was not about the legailty of the prenup, it was about sufficient evidence for AOS.

Why does it seem like some people are more interested in helping the OP circumvent the prenup than answer her actual question....

By everyone, you mean me because I am the only poster who mentioned the validity of the prenup. If you noticed, the OP exchanged posts with me on this digression. Cino had already answered the OP's question.

I take offense at your snide remark that "a reasonably intelligent person should be able to understand this." I think that every couple should have a prenup to protect themselves in case of divorce. However, it is inherently unfair when one spouse has more power than the other. In lots of K1 visa cases, the immigrating fiancee is a stranger here in the US without family and friends to provide support. English is probably not the person's first language. A prenup was probably not discussed before the person came to the US and was sprung on him/her at the last minute (certainly within the 90 days that the K1 is valid). The US citizen most likely had a lawyer draw up the prenup. The foreign fiancee is probably not represented by a lawyer. The foreign fiancee may be giving up significant rights to property accumulated together during the marriage. In some cultures, the pressure and shame of a woman (usually not a man) returning home not married is not an option since she will be viewed as tainted and not good marriage material. So let me know if you think "a reasonably intelligent person should be able to understand this" is unfair when a K1 visa holder comes to the US and is surprised with a prenup.

[SuperDuper! 230]

You can have plenty of proof for AOS in a prenup. Man/wife gets a joint checking acct where "community assets" are mixed. Health insurance, credit card, car, etc.

A Prenup just makes sense given the 50% divorce rate in US.

Also, you have to declare all assets AND DEBTS. Why would someone marry another who is neck-high in debts, and then marry into responsibility for those debts.

Marriage is a business, and a divorcing couple hate each other, and will try to grab any assets possible during a divorce.

If the woman rasies a big fuss, then she must have some other motives in marrying the man.

Also, the man can put in a "waiver of affidavit of support" in event of divorce.

Prenup just makes good sense. There is NO romance in a divorce. Most all men I know who are divorced wish that they had a prenup, but itz too late. The woman usually gets wealthy in a divorce, 9 of 10 times.

Word!

[sojen 0]

I know that my question is off topic now, but I'm just curious. My husband's parents had a prenup before they got married (both of them USC). They had a good business so his mom just stayed home and took care of them. But after 30 years of marriage, they got divorced but the judge did not honor the prenup they split their assets as 50/50. Is there like an expiration date of a prenup?

[aaron2020 11,651]

I know that my question is off topic now, but I'm just curious. My husband's parents had a prenup before they got married (both of them USC). They had a good business so his mom just stayed home and took care of them. But after 30 years of marriage, they got divorced but the judge did not honor the prenup they split their assets as 50/50. Is there like an expiration date of a prenup?

There are no expiration dates on prenups. Generally, prenups are good ideas that protects both parties in case they subsequently divorce.

In determining whether a prenup is valid, a court will look at several factors such as 1) whether the prenup was entered voluntarily or if there was some coercion, 2) the bargaining power between the parties, 3) whether each party had a lawyer, 4) who drafted the prenup, 5) whether it is so one sided that it would be unfair to enforce it, etc.

People are free to enter prenups, but a court has discretion to enforce it. This is because when someone goes to court, they are involving the State. So the State has an interest in not having a broke divorce spouse that will go on the public dole. Therefore the court will only enforce the prenup if it was a fair bargain.

[sojen 0]

I know that my question is off topic now, but I'm just curious. My husband's parents had a prenup before they got married (both of them USC). They had a good business so his mom just stayed home and took care of them. But after 30 years of marriage, they got divorced but the judge did not honor the prenup they split their assets as 50/50. Is there like an expiration date of a prenup?

There are no expiration dates on prenups. Generally, prenups are good ideas that protects both parties in case they subsequently divorce.

In determining whether a prenup is valid, a court will look at several factors such as 1) whether the prenup was entered voluntarily or if there was some coercion, 2) the bargaining power between the parties, 3) whether each party had a lawyer, 4) who drafted the prenup, 5) whether it is so one sided that it would be unfair to enforce it, etc.

People are free to enter prenups, but a court has discretion to enforce it. This is because when someone goes to court, they are involving the State. So the State has an interest in not having a broke divorce spouse that will go on the public dole. Therefore the court will only enforce the prenup if it was a fair bargain.

I see. Thanks for clearing that up.

[aaron2020 11,651]

For example, the prenup said that husband gets 75% of assets accumulated during the marriage and the wife gets 25% and no spousal support. From the split, you can assume that the husband's lawyer drafted the prenup. Assume also that all assets accumulated during the marriage came from the husband's wages and the wife was a stay-at-home mom. No California court would uphold this because it's unfair. Wages earned by Californians during a marriage is community property so it is 50/50. The court is is not going to hold that the prenup is valid if the husband tries to enforce it.

Edited May 30, 2009 by aaron2020

[Joan >3 Bob 20]

You can have plenty of proof for AOS in a prenup. Man/wife gets a joint checking acct where "community assets" are mixed. Health insurance, credit card, car, etc.

A Prenup just makes sense given the 50% divorce rate in US.

Also, you have to declare all assets AND DEBTS. Why would someone marry another who is neck-high in debts, and then marry into responsibility for those debts.

Marriage is a business, and a divorcing couple hate each other, and will try to grab any assets possible during a divorce.

If the woman rasies a big fuss, then she must have some other motives in marrying the man.

Also, the man can put in a "waiver of affidavit of support" in event of divorce.

Prenup just makes good sense. There is NO romance in a divorce. Most all men I know who are divorced wish that they had a prenup, but itz too late. The woman usually gets wealthy in a divorce, 9 of 10 times.

Word!

Thanks...Very Well Stated!! and I agree 100%. I mentioned a prenup the first time I met my fiancee in person. She had no problem then or at the time to sign it. I also got her...her own attorney to fully explain the prenup. I was divorced once and I had NO Prenup and "She got the Gold Mine and I Got the SHAFT!!!!