Sotomayor to white firefighters - drop dead!

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

I think its highly questionable to suggest for example, that minority emergency workers are somehow less qualified or competent to do their jobs - as it gives rise to the sort if thing where people refuse to be operated on if the Doctor is black. Or that black lawyers lose more cases etc...

People refuse to be operated on if the doctor is black because they question the extent to which talent

and academic merit played a role in their education. Are they are actually qualified? Or were they

pushed through med school / residency to meet some sort of affirmative action quota for minorities?

What a great idea it was to reject highly qualified whites and replace them with "minorities" who scored

lower on their exams. The fruits of affirmative action are blossoming!

As I said I think that interpretation is questionable to say the least. It gives rise to dubious prejudgements - when you have little specific knowledge of the merits of different individuals. If the judgement is that so and so must not be a good doctor because he's black, that's faulty logic.

[mawilson 2,133]

As I said I think that interpretation is questionable to say the least. It gives rise to dubious prejudgements - when you have little specific knowledge of the merits of different individuals. If the judgement is that so and so must not be a good doctor because he's black, that's faulty logic.

What a silly argument. You don't need to have specific knowledge of the merits of different individuals -

that's why we have schools/universities and academic degrees. The former are supposed to provide

individuals with a certain standard of excellence in the knowledge, skills and understanding necessary

for practice of their profession; the latter are the passport to a certain kind of public esteem and

recognition - a trademark of sorts.

If someone has a degree from an accredited medical school, you should be able to assume that they

met the school's requirements. However, add affirmative action to the equation and now you

have to consider that the "minority" doctor wasn't held to the same standard getting into med school,

getting through med school, or getting their job at the clinic. They might be just as good a doctor as a

white doctor who has the same qualifications, or they might not. Choosing a white doctor over a minority

doctor is not a racist decision, but it is a discriminatory one directly caused by affirmative action.

Moral of the story: affirmative action creates more discrimination than it eliminates

[Niels Bohr 72]

Hmm....From what I see with affirmative action is when two different candidates of different race meets the same academic qualifications, the minority race would be admitted.

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

As I said I think that interpretation is questionable to say the least. It gives rise to dubious prejudgements - when you have little specific knowledge of the merits of different individuals. If the judgement is that so and so must not be a good doctor because he's black, that's faulty logic.

What a silly argument. You don't need to have specific knowledge of the merits of different individuals -

that's why we have schools/universities and academic degrees. The former are supposed to provide

individuals with a certain standard of excellence in the knowledge, skills and understanding necessary

for practice of their profession; the latter are the passport to a certain kind of public esteem and

recognition - a trademark of sorts.

If someone has a degree from an accredited medical school, you should be able to assume that they

met the school's requirements. However, add affirmative action to the equation and now you

have to consider that the "minority" doctor wasn't held to the same standard getting into med school,

getting through med school, or getting their job at the clinic. They might be just as good a doctor as a

white doctor who has the same qualifications, or they might not. Choosing a white doctor over a minority

doctor is not a racist decision, but it is a discriminatory one directly caused by affirmative action.

Moral of the story: affirmative action creates more discrimination than it eliminates

This begs the question as to how you can be so certain when rendering judgement. You don't know. Nor can you... but all the same you're putting out this spurious "law of averages" argument and the implication that the competence of black professionals across the board are somehow "tainted" by the existence of a government social program that may or may not have affected them.

That's just #######.

Hmm....From what I see with affirmative action is when two different candidates of different race meets the same academic qualifications, the minority race would be admitted.

I don't its as cut and dried as that.

[mawilson 2,133]

This begs the question as to how you can be so certain when rendering judgement. You don't know. Nor can you... but all the same you're putting out this spurious "law of averages" argument and the implication that the competence of black professionals across the board are somehow "tainted" by the existence of a government social program that may or may not have affected them.

That's just #######.

The competence of black professionals across the board *has* been tainted by AA,

it's undeniable. You can deny it all day long, but it is what it is.

You don't have to be 100% certain when rendering judgement either - most people wouldn't

take any chances with their health or their children's health. If there's even the slightest

chance that the doctor could be incompetent, why take it?

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

Why go to any doctor in that case.

[mawilson 2,133]

Why go to any doctor in that case.

You're looking for a new doctor and there are three doctors in your area - John Thompson,

Ramon Jose Martinez-Gonzalez and Musiliu Olukunle Abimbola.

You check their qualifications and all of them went to the same school, graduated the same year.

Which one would you choose?

Random? Whichever one is closest?

[w¡n9Nµ7 §£@¥€r 123]

Why go to any doctor in that case.

You're looking for a new doctor and there are three doctors in your area - John Thompson,

Ramon Jose Martinez-Gonzalez and Musiliu Olukunle Abimbola.

You check their qualifications and all of them went to the same school, graduated the same year.

Which one would you choose?

Random? Whichever one is closest?

John Thompson sounds like a slave name, so that's out. I don't want to see a doctor who in all likelihood is a product of our dysfunctional public school system.

Musiliu, of the three, is the one most likely to be a foreigner (there are many more Hispanics in America than there are Africans). That's who I would see.

[scandal 951]

This begs the question as to how you can be so certain when rendering judgement. You don't know. Nor can you... but all the same you're putting out this spurious "law of averages" argument and the implication that the competence of black professionals across the board are somehow "tainted" by the existence of a government social program that may or may not have affected them.

That's just #######.

The competence of black professionals across the board *has* been tainted by AA,

it's undeniable. You can deny it all day long, but it is what it is.

You don't have to be 100% certain when rendering judgement either - most people wouldn't

take any chances with their health or their children's health. If there's even the slightest

chance that the doctor could be incompetent, why take it?

It's even more insidious than that.

AA harms those minority individuals who ARE able to compete on their merits. By setting society's bar lower for minorities, it is essentially saying to those who are talented, are qualified, are capable - well, we don't think you really are as good, so here is a lower standard for you to shoot for. Even when those high achievers strive and achieve to the highest standards, graduate with excellent grades from the best schools, the perception that dogs them throughout their careers is that they must have gotten a pass and not truly earned their achievements. It must be infuriating to know that you're every bit as good, but everyone nods and winks and assumes otherwise.

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

Why go to any doctor in that case.

You're looking for a new doctor and there are three doctors in your area - John Thompson,

Ramon Jose Martinez-Gonzalez and Musiliu Olukunle Abimbola.

You check their qualifications and all of them went to the same school, graduated the same year.

Which one would you choose?

Random? Whichever one is closest?

Sure. I go to the doctor that is closest to where I live.

Nothing else went into the decision.

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

This begs the question as to how you can be so certain when rendering judgement. You don't know. Nor can you... but all the same you're putting out this spurious "law of averages" argument and the implication that the competence of black professionals across the board are somehow "tainted" by the existence of a government social program that may or may not have affected them.

That's just #######.

The competence of black professionals across the board *has* been tainted by AA,

it's undeniable. You can deny it all day long, but it is what it is.

You don't have to be 100% certain when rendering judgement either - most people wouldn't

take any chances with their health or their children's health. If there's even the slightest

chance that the doctor could be incompetent, why take it?

It's even more insidious than that.

AA harms those minority individuals who ARE able to compete on their merits. By setting society's bar lower for minorities, it is essentially saying to those who are talented, are qualified, are capable - well, we don't think you really are as good, so here is a lower standard for you to shoot for. Even when those high achievers strive and achieve to the highest standards, graduate with excellent grades from the best schools, the perception that dogs them throughout their careers is that they must have gotten a pass and not truly earned their achievements. It must be infuriating to know that you're every bit as good, but everyone nods and winks and assumes otherwise.

You do realise that Affirmative Action relates to nothing specifically tangible - as much as a fairly broad set of generalised policies defined and applied at the local level.

[Ban Hammer 13,636]

This is stupid. What happened to all the Asians?

they won't stoop so low as to being a firefighter, they all want to be engineers.

Understandable - when you're 5'2", you don't want to stoop any lower

[scandal 951]

This begs the question as to how you can be so certain when rendering judgement. You don't know. Nor can you... but all the same you're putting out this spurious "law of averages" argument and the implication that the competence of black professionals across the board are somehow "tainted" by the existence of a government social program that may or may not have affected them.

That's just #######.

The competence of black professionals across the board *has* been tainted by AA,

it's undeniable. You can deny it all day long, but it is what it is.

You don't have to be 100% certain when rendering judgement either - most people wouldn't

take any chances with their health or their children's health. If there's even the slightest

chance that the doctor could be incompetent, why take it?

It's even more insidious than that.

AA harms those minority individuals who ARE able to compete on their merits. By setting society's bar lower for minorities, it is essentially saying to those who are talented, are qualified, are capable - well, we don't think you really are as good, so here is a lower standard for you to shoot for. Even when those high achievers strive and achieve to the highest standards, graduate with excellent grades from the best schools, the perception that dogs them throughout their careers is that they must have gotten a pass and not truly earned their achievements. It must be infuriating to know that you're every bit as good, but everyone nods and winks and assumes otherwise.

You do realise that Affirmative Action relates to nothing specifically tangible - as much as a fairly broad set of generalised policies defined and applied at the local level.

What does 'tangible' mean? Does a specific university admissions policy not count as something 'tangible'?

If you mean that there isn't a uniform law or set of laws, you're right. Thank goodness. The law assures (or is meant to assure) equality. Hence we have the Civil Rights Act etc. Those local policies you mention are pretty darn tangible, however. Ask anyone who ever lost an admission spot because there was a reserved quota for minority applicants.

Are you familiar with the Bakke decision? And the 2003 University of Michigan decisions?

Universities and public institutions in this country have for decades been implementing "reverse quotas" aka Affirmative Action, and have needed to artfully cloak them in order to not be discriminatory. They walk a fine line indeed to do so. I'm actually in favor of having admissions criteria that comply with the current Bakke & U.Mich. rulings, namely that they are entirely color-blind, gender-blind, ethnicity-blind. What they CAN do , and SHOULD do is be economically sensitive.

If universities want to guarantee placement and scholarships to people from lower socio-economic backgrounds so that poor kids get a shot to go to college, I think that's great. Just so long as ANY poor kids get EQUAL chances at those spots, regardless of color etc. Of course many of those spots will go to blacks, Latinos, etc. As they should! I would expect that we give a hand to talented kids who want to excel but can't afford the cost of tuition. I just don't think we should selectively pick minorities for this special help. And, in Bakke and U.Mich, the Supreme Court has fundamentally agreed.

[w¡n9Nµ7 §£@¥€r 123]

I would expect that we give a hand to talented kids who want to excel but can't afford the cost of tuition. I just don't think we should selectively pick minorities for this special help.

It is scandalous how poverty in this country is almost always associated with people of color in our inner cities, as if the vast swathes of rural poverty - white poverty - doesn't exist.

[Niels Bohr 72]

When I entered the University fresh out of high school, they admitted me into the College of Engineering and gave me a stipend of $2000 for being the first Cambodian to major in Engineering at the University. Wild! Well, I was aware that the school had affirmative action but my high school career was almost perfect with grades (Senioritis kicked in the last few months).