Is USA still the promised land?

[VisaJourneyLady 33]

And the prosperity the US helped spread around the world has helped give other nations economic prowess they can now assert to preserve their sovereignity.

Are you f-ing kidding me? The US is doing the complete opposite, and has done since the second world war. Using up other countries natural resources and exploiting them (with the exception of the middle-east), interfering with other people's governments, I could go on.

[mawilson 2,133]

And the prosperity the US helped spread around the world has helped give other nations economic prowess they can now assert to preserve their sovereignity.

Are you f-ing kidding me? The US is doing the complete opposite, and has done since the second world war. Using up other countries natural resources and exploiting them (with the exception of the middle-east), interfering with other people's governments, I could go on.

Yeah, I wish.

If what you said is true, where's my free Iraqi oil?

[w¡n9Nµ7 §£@¥€r 123]

I drink it, I drink it alllll up

[Susita 175]

I drink it, I drink it alllll up

Duh what do you think sizzurp is? Or pimp juice? It's gas baby, petroleum.

Just ask Lil Jon

[VisaJourneyLady 33]

And the prosperity the US helped spread around the world has helped give other nations economic prowess they can now assert to preserve their sovereignity.

Are you f-ing kidding me? The US is doing the complete opposite, and has done since the second world war. Using up other countries natural resources and exploiting them (with the exception of the middle-east), interfering with other people's governments, I could go on.

Yeah, I wish.

If what you said is true, where's my free Iraqi oil?

Cheney's got it.

[mawilson 2,133]

And the prosperity the US helped spread around the world has helped give other nations economic prowess they can now assert to preserve their sovereignity.

Are you f-ing kidding me? The US is doing the complete opposite, and has done since the second world war. Using up other countries natural resources and exploiting them (with the exception of the middle-east), interfering with other people's governments, I could go on.

Yeah, I wish.

If what you said is true, where's my free Iraqi oil?

Cheney's got it.

Damn Cheney, he ruined everything! I was looking forward to 5c/gallon oil.

[rebeccajo 14]

RJ - I'm from Detroit, I don't need to do any "homework" to see what has happened to the working middle class there since over the past 25 years. Yet, still I see the children (my classmates) of card-carrying members of the UAW (and other unions, my own father included) doing quite well for themselves, several even better than their parents and certainly not on the brink of financial ruin. How can this be? Well some of them anticipated working in a knowledge-based economy away from manufacturing and some of them moved on to a place with a more diverse economy than their hometown offered. People who were flexible and had college degrees fared better than those who anticipated they could stay put and still ride the gravy train of union work that their parents enjoyed.

I'm interested that you think you haven't benefitted from any kind of gender-based legislation. I know a lot of women my mother's age who were fired from jobs when they became pregnant. I know a lot of them weren't hired for jobs they wanted because they "would only get married and quit." (these women never got married). My own mother never realized her dream of becoming an architect because she was steered away from the coursework required in the 50s because they "weren't for girls." (She had straight As,). My stepmother was never promoted to account executive at the advertising agency she worked at in the 60s, in spite of all her college degree and the fact she had actually brought in a new client because she was "only the secretary." I have certainly got to where I am through hard work and being damn good at what I do.....but I don't kid myself that if you want to have a career, the playing field is a lot more level than it used to be.

I'm not a fan of what unions became, but I think using the term 'gravy train' indicates you're a bit out of touch with a blue-collar lifestyle - 25 years hands-on-deck or not.

Gender-based legislation got tacked on to 'affirmative action' while they were scrambling to nail it all down. That's why I don't burn my bra for all my 'sisters' who went before me. Frankly, we women just got lucky to get added into the hue and cry. And IMO any REAL workplace changes we benefit from today came about because we were entering the working world in droves. You can't just ignore half the workforce. Women showed their worth and they've benefited. We earned it - it wasn't just 'legislated' to us.

[Reba 2]

So move. It's all one country, you know. What reason is there to stay where it's depressed when you know it's better a few hours away?

And sell the house how? We can't buy another house anywhere unless we sell this one. And who will buy a house in a town that is going downhill fast, where there are no jobs, and more and more people on the dole every day, and no prospects at all because the local government has their collective heads stuck up their arses?

And where exactly do you propose we move to? The entire state has one of the highest unemloyment rates in the country (I think we're #3). But for the moment at least I still have a job, so to leave to go "somewhere" there might be a job is just too risky.

We were trying to move last year, but then the bottom fell out and there's no way we'd be able to sell our house. The only "houses" selling in this town over the last year or more are trailers. Anything priced over $40,000 is just sitting and rotting.

The company I work for is hurting bad, to the point they're even ignoring bill collections calls and BBB calls. They just changed our health plan again, and I'm too depressed to read the document to figure out how we've been ###### now.

My husband has been out of work for over 2 years, if we lose healthcare entirely, we're screwed. It recently cost us $600 for a CT scan for him. And that's *with* insurance!

The only reason we're here in this podunk town is because when I first got my visa my husband's parents were both dying of cancer and he wanted to be near them. His father even bought him a house down the road so that he could be close (with the stipulation of course that none of it would be mine, should my husband for some reason die before his parents. feel the love) His parents died, stuff happened, and we've been stuck here since.

So yeah, I would LOVE to get out of this shithole. I never wanted to be here in the first place. If you can find me a well paying job, in an area that isn't so damned depressed, and close enough to my family, and sell our house here, I'd be glad to go.

It's no longer just so easy as "well if you don't like it, leave". If it was, we'd have done it.

[Trompe le Monde 1,107]

quote]

I'm not a fan of what unions became, but I think using the term 'gravy train' indicates you're a bit out of touch with a blue-collar lifestyle - 25 years hands-on-deck or not.

Gender-based legislation got tacked on to 'affirmative action' while they were scrambling to nail it all down. That's why I don't burn my bra for all my 'sisters' who went before me. Frankly, we women just got lucky to get added into the hue and cry. And IMO any REAL workplace changes we benefit from today came about because we were entering the working world in droves. You can't just ignore half the workforce. Women showed their worth and they've benefited. We earned it - it wasn't just 'legislated' to us.

Employment discrimination laws were legislated, I'm sorry, and all those laws that ensure you can't be unfairly dismissed because you are pregnant or married, and don't have to endure your bossing smacking your a$$. They are there not because of the "women's movement" but for the very reason you state - women entered the workforce in droves. If people quite biatching about the "womens movement" and "affirmative action" for the state of things and realized that the common enemy of all people regardless of color or gender was corporate greed and outsourcing we might actually get somewhere with real change.

"gravy train" was a droll statement, sorry you missed that, but compared to most people working now, union workers of the 60s and 70s had a pretty good life (not wealthy, but comfortable) and are enjoying a better retirement than almost anyone under 50 can expect.

I know you have in your mind that everyone lives in some ivory tower and you are of course the arbiter of all things working class, but I was raised in a neighborhood where everybody's parents worked on the line at Ford. I think know as much about that "lifestyle" as you do even if I left it behind to go do something else that had more promising prospects for the future. I am steeped in the ways of bingo halls, VFWs, bowling leagues, occasionally bringing dad's lunch to the picket line, not buying the Free Press because it's a "scab paper" and vacation being a week "up north" in a cabin.

And by the way, 30 years ago when things were apparently so much better my dad had to take a reduced position and received a pink slip every year for 3 years but somehow managed to hold on to his job (my mother didn't work at the time). The problems we are currently experiencing didn't start last year. Of course that was a challenging time, but somehow opportunities still presented themselves from then to make for a pretty decent life for his kids.

[w¡n9Nµ7 §£@¥€r 123]

Speaking of VFW, the one near me has a box in front that kind of looks like a mailbox but isn't. Not being familiar with how VFW's operate, I don't know what it's for. But it's not a mailbox. How do I know? They recently had to put up a big sign in english and spanish saying THIS IS NOT A MAILBOX. The surrounding neighborhood used to be primarily irish and polish but has in the last 5 years or so transformed into mini central america.

[Trompe le Monde 1,107]

Some post offices have those boxes as storage for long walking routes where the post person can put stacks of mail to pick up along the way so they don't have to carry it all in their pouch.

If the local post person drives the whole route...I have no idea

[w¡n9Nµ7 §£@¥€r 123]

I have seen the mail people in that neighborhood walk. It's right by a train station, very dense.

[rebeccajo 14]

I know you have in your mind that everyone lives in some ivory tower and you are of course the arbiter of all things working class, but I was raised in a neighborhood where everybody's parents worked on the line at Ford. I think know as much about that "lifestyle" as you do even if I left it behind to go do something else that had more promising prospects for the future. I am steeped in the ways of bingo halls, VFWs, bowling leagues, occasionally bringing dad's lunch to the picket line, not buying the Free Press because it's a "scab paper" and vacation being a week "up north" in a cabin.

Hilarious. Just hilarious, Robin.

I'm no 'arbiter' of all things 'working class'! I grew up blue collar like you - my Father a factory worker in a DuPont facility. We never suffered lay-offs or work stoppages. My first husband was a banker until he eventually ended up at DuPont also. I get the impression you think our upbringings (yours and mine) were dubious or something - shameful - something to 'flee' from - that the 'Ivory Tower' should have been a goal.

I've never seen it that way. All I've ever wanted was to have enough and to be happy. If I ran across the Ivory Tower - yay. If not, so what.

Blather on trying to twist what I've written - it's of no consequence to me. I'm not so deluded by outward images to assume a posh address or high-class set of wheels equals an owner with wealth. It might and if they've earned it - good for them. BUT they just might be awash in debt and would have a hard time paying their bills if a layoff came 'round. After all, it's the American Dream to Have It All. I also know that likewise can't assume that the guy with mud on his boots who drives an old pick-up is just 'working class'. Or rather I should say you can't assume that just because he's working class that he's 'worse off'. When I worked in a bank on the 'poor' side of my town about 20 years ago, I served many a 'muddy boot guy' who had bank balances you would envy.

I'm not sure what point you are driving at. Not one bit of my original commentary in this thread had a thing to do with 'class'. The comment was that many Americans would be out of luck if they lost a job because they are struggling already. You can sit here till the cows come home and try to make class warfare out of that if you want, I guess. Seems foolish to me though when the problem clearly stretches across all income levels.

[w¡n9Nµ7 §£@¥€r 123]

It's true. Upper income housing markets in North Jersey are reeling - reeling - from the recent decrease in bonus payments in the financial services sector. You don't need to lay those guys off to make 'em hurt, just cut that expected bonus in half and next thing you know, the trophy wife is out the door and the house is on short sale.

[Trompe le Monde 1,107]

I get the impression you think our upbringings (yours and mine) were dubious or something - shameful - something to 'flee' from - that the 'Ivory Tower' should have been a goal.

You are projecting a lot on my comments. I said no such thing. All I have suggested is there is not much of a future in a manufacturing job in this country. That is not judgement on the people who do those jobs, but on the economic reality that has been experienced by many people in this country.

And I honestly do not see anyone using the phrase "working class" or "blue collar" on this board more than you do (you did, after all bring it up), usually with the implication that you "get it" when it comes to adversity and no one else apparently has those experiences when expressing an opposite view to your own. Like I said, most people who pass the age of 30 have been knocked back a few times. Life can be pretty hard.

I still strongly believe there is opportunity in this country. I know a lot of people who are currently unemployed who are struggling but not on the precipice of financial ruin. I also believe that while some things are worse than they used to be, a lot of other things are a hell of a lot better too.