Is USA still the promised land?

[rebeccajo 14]

You can rely on yourself all you want. You can live within your means and not over-extend yourself with debt.

That still won't help you if your employer decides he no longer needs you. Which takes away your health insurance. Which is OK I guess if you don't need maintenance meds to live.

Stop kidding yourself. Most people are ten minutes and a boardroom decision away from personal financial disaster in the US.

I see. So nobody is allowed to express any kind of happiness with their humble lot in life.

I stated flatly we don't have much money. I am self-employed, and don't have the luxury of a steady paycheck or employment benefits in the first place.

You seem relentless about wanting other people to be unhappy. And apparently unless they have your attitude, they are "kidding themselves".

We are happy because we love each other and have the life we want - which isn't about money.

I have a two hundred dollar car. I buy clothes second-hand. Shop the 50% bin at the store, and most of my meat my whole adult life comes from hunting and fishing. We have one asset most people do not have because I am a bush pilot - but we are not well-off by any means.

My wife has a ghastly health problem - and yea, we've fixed that too on our own after six hospitals and numerous specialists - which I paid for because there was no insurance. None of whom could do anything for her.

Life looked pretty grim in December because we weren't sure she was going to live. But you know, I never lashed out at other people insisting that they had to be miserable too because my wife was vomiting bile continuously for 12 days and in unbearable pain.

I am so grateful she isn't on an IV just to keep her alive. Gosh, if I wanted to I could just make an endless post of my mother's cancer, my father's death from heart attack, how I was hit by a drunk driver and suffer daily pain and muscle spasms, numbness, and and big loss in range of motion.

But instead I just have a lot of gratitude for my lovely Filippina, who will give me a child now. I'm not going to wallow in bitter hatred about life.

Cheers.

It was not an attack on you. And I'm certainly glad you've seen the light of day from your days of trouble.

And I mean that.

*sigh*

Look - the question in the initial post is whether or not the US is still the Promised Land. Now, you may find my perspective negative. I guess we shall just have to agree to disagree. But I've felt this way about my country LONG before this incident came upon us last Thursday.

Yes you are exactly right to be thankful for your blessings. I know what mine are also - admittedly they are hard to see at the moment but I know this too will pass.

I just think it is sad in this "Great Land" that so many people are struggling. I cannot help it if I want better than that for all of us.

[sara..... 371]

but one thing that keeps me saying USA is the best place in the world is the freedom that we have here, as a women IF i wanted to drive i can, if i want to go to market alone i can.

You can drive and go to the market in India too, you know.

u ever seen the way they drive there?

sara

Your inability to drive there does not mean you don't have the right to.

Life in America is much more comfortable - even if you're poor - than it is in India. But I just don't buy that you have more rights here.

im not going to say that life in india is not better in some aspects.....however where i would be going to live would be in kashmir not dehli or anything like that, i have enjoyed myself in dehli everytime im there, but kashmir is nothing like dehli

sara

[w¡n9Nµ7 §£@¥€r 123]

however where i would be going to live would be in kashmir not dehli or anything like that, i have enjoyed myself in dehli everytime im there, but kashmir is nothing like dehli

India's one country. You can live wherever you want.

[rlogan 2,036]

It was not an attack on you. And I'm certainly glad you've seen the light of day from your days of trouble.

And I mean that.

The "kidding yourself" statement was made out of ignorance of our circumstance. We are literally very grateful my wife is alive, and not in horrible pain.

I have for years lived under uncertainty about income, something that those on salary or wage don't live with to anywhere near the same degree. I don't think a thing about living for months out of the back of my car if I need to do that for work a long distance from home. I don't expect work to show up at my front door.

It is also wise counsel to live within your means and not borrow stupendous amounts of money for a big house, new car, or use credit cards at 20% interest to eat at restaurants. A lot of people are incapable of weathering a storm financially because they have saddled themselves with debt that can only be sustained if nothing bad happens to them.

Medical bankruptcy is actually the most common, and believe me what we have learned is that we have to be in charge and rely on ourselves because if we relied on them we'd be up to our eyeballs in debt and she would still be suffering. I recommend if you have health problems that you read voraciously, get involved in support groups with the same problem, and do NOT be dependent on one source of help - a source that makes a lot of money from your sickness.

Look - the question in the initial post is whether or not the US is still the Promised Land.

I may not have stated it clearly enough - but it isn't the Promised Land. It has been referred to as the "Land of Opportunity".

And there is opportunity. But it is the opportunity to succeed as well as to fail.

Good luck.

[mawilson 2,133]

im not going to say that life in india is not better in some aspects.....however where i would be going to live would be in kashmir not dehli or anything like that, i have enjoyed myself in dehli everytime im there, but kashmir is nothing like dehli

It's Delhi, not "Dehli".

[rebeccajo 14]

It was not an attack on you. And I'm certainly glad you've seen the light of day from your days of trouble.

And I mean that.

The "kidding yourself" statement was made out of ignorance of our circumstance. We are literally very grateful my wife is alive, and not in horrible pain.

I have for years lived under uncertainty about income, something that those on salary or wage don't live with to anywhere near the same degree. I don't think a thing about living for months out of the back of my car if I need to do that for work a long distance from home. I don't expect work to show up at my front door.

It is also wise counsel to live within your means and not borrow stupendous amounts of money for a big house, new car, or use credit cards at 20% interest to eat at restaurants. A lot of people are incapable of weathering a storm financially because they have saddled themselves with debt that can only be sustained if nothing bad happens to them.

Medical bankruptcy is actually the most common, and believe me what we have learned is that we have to be in charge and rely on ourselves because if we relied on them we'd be up to our eyeballs in debt and she would still be suffering. I recommend if you have health problems that you read voraciously, get involved in support groups with the same problem, and do NOT be dependent on one source of help - a source that makes a lot of money from your sickness.

Look - the question in the initial post is whether or not the US is still the Promised Land.

I may not have stated it clearly enough - but it isn't the Promised Land. It has been referred to as the "Land of Opportunity".

And there is opportunity. But it is the opportunity to succeed as well as to fail.

Good luck.

Yes, the 'kidding yourself' comment was made out of ignorance of your personal circumstance. What I was thinking when I wrote it was more of a generalization about 'how things are' these days - at least how I see them. That generalization would be that regular wage-earning persons (you aren't one of us) can do all those conservative things you listed - live without the big house and car; without the status symbols; without over-leveraging debt, etc. and STILL be just an executive's eyelash away from financial catastrophe.

I reckon it has always been that way to some degree. But personally I have to say I panic a bit for Americans as I see the cost of necessities soaring - food; gasoline; everyday household essentials such as cleaning supplies - even freaking toilet paper. People who do live conservatively (everyday wage earners) have only so much money these days. Raises aren't what they used to be - if they happen at all.

I'm glad your wife is healthy now. It upsets me to think you had to 'work outside the box' to make that happen. Why should a person's health be something they have to research and scour about? I work 'on the edge' of healthcare - I work in a mental health facility. I had loads of opinions about the reckless profiteering in medicine before I entered the field. Those opinions are only ten-fold now. When I get on my soapbox about healthcare in this country, my cry is not about expecting my government to provide medical cover for everyone. It's about making healthcare affordable. I mentioned in another post that when I was young, both my ex-husband and I had healthcover from our jobs that our employers did not ask us to pay for. We were also each insured on the others policy. That was the late 70's. Health insurance simply was not as expensive as it is now. Plain and Simple. And people did bellyache about buying prescriptions and there could be some heartburn at the cash register, but for the most part medication was within peoples means. 30 years later - in my lifetime - things have changed. Changed, IMO, to truly frightening proportions. The health and well being of a nation is tied to the balance sheets of hospitals and insurance companies. The healthcare industry holds employers and their workforces hostage with ever-changing rules and plans.

It is greed and it is wrong.

If the average man is trying his best to live 'financially prudent' - where is the check on an industry that would rather suffer the people it is supposed to serve?

Yeah - I know. Sounds gloomy and less than 'rosey'. I'm all for positive thinking - believe me it has saved my ####### on many an occasion. When times has been good financially for me (and they've been many) I tried never to turn my back on issues I felt were important. I tried never to turn my nose up at my fellow man who is worse off than me. Because but for Grace, there go I.

Good Luck to you also.

Edited June 8, 2009 by rebeccajo

[MrsCat 6]

I'm not sure when disagreeing with a statement became rubbing it in - but meh. Take it whatever way you want. I stand by my original statement and I don't think most people are 10 minutes away from personal financial disaster. Doesn't mean that I don't think many people are minutes away, just not most. I've got plenty of reasons to be bitter and feel like life is #######, I just don't want to.

We lost 60% of our retirement income in the past 7 months. But you know what, we're young enough and hopefully we'll make it back. At least we have a retirement income. Even if its nearly worthless.

My job is going to furlough 3 days a month for the next two years starting in July, meaning basically 2 months/year without pay. Heck, that a serious hit to the family expenditures, but that is just going to give me more time to prepare dinners at home. Also, that's a 3 day weekend, nearly every month. My workload isn't going to decrease but we're all making sacrifices right now.

For the first time in 6 months, my intestinal infection is under control. Expensive labs have ruled out cancer, IBS and Graves Disease. I've actually started to gain weight and energy. Our medical bills are paid. The bald spot on my head I developed as a result of the infection, is finally growing back. Yup - that's right. I went completely bald on my head in the back, about 4 inches around. But at least it ain't alopecia and the remaining hair is long enough to cover it most days.

I've had $3000 in dental bills since I moved because our insurance (through both of our work) sucks. But my teeth are fixed.

The economy sucks in Hawaii right now. But you know what most locals are saying. This is the first time in years that they can enjoy Hawaii because they too now can afford a nice dinner out at a nice restaurant and spend a weekend at a lofty resort. Housing prices are still on the decline. We just may be able to afford a home.

Ya know RJ - Karma is a b!tch. I think I've paid up for this year. But there are 6 months left, so anything can happen, and I'm not ruling out a relapse.

Sorry that I'm not giving into the economic depression that is rampant right now but I'm just thankful for the small things that have come my way in the past couple months. I was negative though September '08 to December '08 - I've had enough. And I'm not going to apologize for my perspective and I really don't see how that's rubbing it in.

[rebeccajo 14]

I have no problem with your perspective. It's an opinion and it's yours - everybody is entitled to their opinion.

And everybody has problems. This isn't a pissing match about whose are the worst. rlogan is grateful for his blessings; I presume you are - so am I. I think in the four+ years I've been on this board I may have casually once or twice mentioned that Wes is ill. For me to speak about it now is probably 'news' to many who think they know me. It's not something I'm in the habit of ranting about or allowing to ruin my day. We know what it is and we deal with it.

I read lots of news articles. A lot of them are sent to me by friends. Positive stuff and negative stuff. I recall having read one pundit saying something to effect that as long as some of the calamities of this time in our history don't come to your door, then at least personally there is no recession for you. It reminded me of the historical fact that during the Great Depression, while 25% of people were unemployed, 75% were. So no personal "Great Depression" for them. That does not negate the fact that it was a real incident in American history. And a great enough incident that it caused the intervention of government to create social programs to help those less fortunate recover. WWII then happened - much of Europe was devastated or financially wiped out after it ended. The United States wasn't able to become the world economic leader just because of it's vast resources and work ethic of its people.

We face different times now. The other players on the stage aren't as "weak" as they used to be. Other economies have strong currencies. And the prosperity the US helped spread around the world has helped give other nations economic prowess they can now assert to preserve their sovereignity.

So whatever - there you have it. I live somewhere very different than where you live in the US. People here are hard working and most of them live on the lower rungs of the middle class. The area of my state isn't considered to be "Appalachian" in culture or its economic makeup. Rather it is considered to be more "mid-western" and that is one area of our country where times are hard hit right now. And because I am "old" I've seen the changes to my country I mentioned earlier. No one can ignore them. They are there and they are real.

I've got to get myself ready to go to work now. I'll see plenty loads of people there who are worse off than me. Way worse. But my gratitude for what still is "right" with my life won't cause me to tell any of them that they aren't a "ray of sunshine" or that they are in a "very dark place". But then again - that's probably because I've lived long enough to have been smacked down before and I know I'll get back up again someday.

[Trompe le Monde 1,107]

I would agree that healthcare in this country needs to be seriously reformed.

However, I think a lot of people here who have reached adulthood and almost everyone past the age of 30 has been been smacked down at least once or twice. They still might have a different outlook on life, and the best way to deal with their problems

I'm sure you have seen a lot of changes in your lifetime, but were part of a lucky generation (in your case, the tail end of the baby boom) who experienced unprecedented prosperity and the largest growth of the global economy the world has perhaps ever known. My grandfather who is a lot older than you (97) remembers a time when life was a lot harder in the USA. He remembers childhood disease (which claimed his 6 year old brother), a great depression, 2 world wars and having to up sticks and leaving the dust bowl of west Texas with a wife and 2 young kids in a jalopy to pick fruit (peaches) on the west coast because as hard as that was, it was the way to a better life.

The fact is, although things were quite possibly better in many ways 30 or 40 years ago, I would rather be a woman working now than back then. I'm sure many blacks, hispanics and homosexuals feel the same way. It's good to know your rights are protected adn the guy doing the same job you are isn't being paid twice as much simply because he has XY chromosomes. And I certainly would rather be a woman in the comfortable and progressive west than in many other parts of the world.

I'm certainly not some gung ho American. I have lived in both Europe and Asia and I have seen both good and bad comparisons to the way things are done here. At the end of the day, in spite of some pretty significant problems I think we have it pretty good compared to my grandfather's generation (though somehow they managed to be happier than we are now) and a large proportion of the world's population. I try not to forget that.

[w¡n9Nµ7 §£@¥€r 123]

Yeah, my father immigrated to this country in 1971. To listen to him compare the country he immigrated to in 1971 to the country it was in early 2009 before he passed away, this country has changed dramatically - for the better - for people like us. I'm glad for it.

[rebeccajo 14]

i'm just not convinced it's the 'Promised Land'. If you had asked me the question 10 years ago, I might have said I think it is.

But now I've traveled. I know that there are other countries where life is worse than the US (no I haven't been to them) and I know there are countries where life can be just as rich and rewarding.

Robin - Sure it was 'harder' in the US in my parents and grandparents generation. It was 'harder' everywhere around the planet. I deal with an aging partially paralyzed Mother because of polio - a disease that scourged children in America prior to the 40's and nearly claimed her.

I never felt my rights as a woman were violated when I entered the workforce in the 70's. I don't feel I'm personally loads better off in the workplace in this millenium because of the women's movement. If I'm better off in the workplace it's because I've demonstrated myself to be competent and hardworking. I'm thankful for women's suffrage but otherwise IMO I believe I've made my own way.

I won't deny the huge prosperity boom of the 50's and 60's. But do your homework and understand that the working middle class who fueled that boom now find their future prospects to be somewhat the same as they were before the boom. Call it profiteering of corporations; corporations squeezed because of healthcare costs and taxes; call it the greed of unions - whatever you choose. The future of this nation cannot be propelled by a small portion of the workforce who happen to be employed in finance or insurance. People need jobs. If there are no jobs then there is less taxable income to turn the wheels of government. If there are no jobs, crime rises. If ENOUGH people are eventually out of work then there is anarchy.

You know what - I really hate for historial common sense to be viewed by some of you as 'doom and gloom' - as negativity. For a nation to go forward, it must look to its past. It must look to history because it DOES repeat itself. Human beings are human beings despite all the advances of technology, modern medicine, communications - whatever. If citizens get to the point where they cannot feed, clothe and house themselves, they rebel. It happens.

Edited June 9, 2009 by rebeccajo

[w¡n9Nµ7 §£@¥€r 123]

If citizens get to the point where they cannot feed, clothe and house themselves, they rebel. It happens.

But we're not there. We're not even close.

What we have, long-term, is a health care crisis.

Short-term, we have an unemployment crisis. But most people find work by the time their UI runs out.

[rebeccajo 14]

If citizens get to the point where they cannot feed, clothe and house themselves, they rebel. It happens.

But we're not there. We're not even close.

What we have, long-term, is a health care crisis.

Short-term, we have an unemployment crisis. But most people find work by the time their UI runs out.

*ding ding ding*

You win the prize for getting closest to common sense.

"Social Programs" such as nationalized medicine aren't crafted by SMART leaders to create a nanny state.

They are created to keep the peasants from offing their heads.

I think that's why you get such a lot of argument about such programs - because this nation has been built upon personal freedoms. Some would view social programs as a way of government controlling us. Truth be told - it can be abused that way.

It's a delicate balance.

[Trompe le Monde 1,107]

i'm just not convinced it's the 'Promised Land'. If you had asked me the question 10 years ago, I might have said I think it is.

But now I've traveled. I know that there are other countries where life is worse than the US (no I haven't been to them) and I know there are countries where life can be just as rich and rewarding.

Robin - Sure it was 'harder' in the US in my parents and grandparents generation. It was 'harder' everywhere around the planet. I deal with an aging partially paralyzed Mother because of polio - a disease that scourged children in America prior to the 40's and nearly claimed her.

I never felt my rights as a woman were violated when I entered the workforce in the 70's. I don't feel I'm personally loads better off in the workplace in this millenium because of the women's movement. If I'm better off in the workplace it's because I've demonstrated myself to be competent and hardworking. I'm thankful for women's suffrage but otherwise IMO I believe I've made my own way.

I won't deny the huge prosperity boom of the 50's and 60's. But do your homework and understand that the working middle class who fueled that boom now find their future prospects to be somewhat the same as they were before the boom. Call it profiteering of corporations; corporations squeezed because of healthcare costs and taxes; call it the greed of unions - whatever you choose. The future of this nation cannot be propelled by a small portion of the workforce who happen to be employed in finance or insurance. People need jobs. If there are no jobs then there is less taxable income to turn the wheels of government. If there are no jobs, crime rises. If ENOUGH people are eventually out of work then there is anarchy.

RJ - I'm from Detroit, I don't need to do any "homework" to see what has happened to the working middle class there since over the past 25 years. Yet, still I see the children (my classmates) of card-carrying members of the UAW (and other unions, my own father included) doing quite well for themselves, several even better than their parents and certainly not on the brink of financial ruin. How can this be? Well some of them anticipated working in a knowledge-based economy away from manufacturing and some of them moved on to a place with a more diverse economy than their hometown offered. People who were flexible and had college degrees fared better than those who anticipated they could stay put and still ride the gravy train of union work that their parents enjoyed.

I'm interested that you think you haven't benefitted from any kind of gender-based legislation. I know a lot of women my mother's age who were fired from jobs when they became pregnant. I know a lot of them weren't hired for jobs they wanted because they "would only get married and quit." (these women never got married). My own mother never realized her dream of becoming an architect because she was steered away from the coursework required in the 50s because they "weren't for girls." (She had straight As,). My stepmother was never promoted to account executive at the advertising agency she worked at in the 60s, in spite of all her college degree and the fact she had actually brought in a new client because she was "only the secretary." I have certainly got to where I am through hard work and being damn good at what I do.....but I don't kid myself that if you want to have a career, the playing field is a lot more level than it used to be.

[w¡n9Nµ7 §£@¥€r 123]

Well some of them anticipated working in a knowledge-based economy away from manufacturing and some of them moved on to a place with a more diverse economy than their hometown offered. People who were flexible and had college degrees fared better than those who anticipated they could stay put and still ride the gravy train of union work that their parents enjoyed.

Wise words, worth repeating.

Flexibility is key.