Alright Constitutional Scholars...

[Heracles 417]

Economics has no boundaries. I really don't give a ####### who comes to America (legally or illegally). From an economic standpoint, it stimulates growth. The additional workers push wages down which pushes prices down. Again... the unemployment, high prices, and inflation is all thoroughly explained by the Austrian Business Cycle Theory that won FA Hayek a Nobel.

There is a huge difference in theory and reality. Heck, even communism sounds good in theory but fails miserably in practice. Which is why I have ask you time and time again to show me one, just one, place where the libertarian approach works.

[spookyturtle 9,465]

Don't copy me. Think of something on your own. I said your wife was a traitor to the US for marrying an American hater like you. She should be tried for treason.

If I copied you I too would break the law and pretend to love you for a VISA / citizenship.

Lame. I haven't posted one negative about Austrailia, nor criticized you for loving your country. I only call you on your criticizm of the US while you are here as a leach, using it as it suits your needs and complaining of the rest.

all jokes and silly insults aside, how is pointing out how much of a disgrace it is to see cities in that condition equate to hating the country? As you said, if I did actually hate the country I would have just left and said f-ck you guys. Your poverty and your problem, not mine. But then again I would just be doing the NE American thing. I care about this country so I want to see it succeed and prosper. I want to see all Americans living a good life rather than the select few, like the bastards I work with.

We don't live in silos downunder. Touch one touch all is not just a union mentality. When one part of Australia is hurting so is the rest. Whereas, a good portion of those who are doing well here simply don;t give a ####### about those millions living in poverty. Remember, Detroit is not some desolate city. People still live there. What future do you think they have?

It's no wonder people resort to crime here when they have nothing else. I work with people whose kids don't even know what Home depot is because they are so out of touch with reality. One of the managers daughter has a nice $90k car and has never stepped into a walmart in her life.

I am a right wing conservative back home but refuse to be a Republican here. why?we just don't share the same definition of what country first means.

Since you're not a Republican, you can't be all bad. Anyway, it was fun trading insults, of course I'll probably get suspened again, but........ I don't know you or your wife so obviosly what I say means nothing. And I sincerely wish you the best of luck in the immigration process. I won't rag on Australia, I hope to visit there someday as I have heard it is a wonderful country. Have a good weekend.

[Heracles 417]

Since you're not a Republican, you can't be all bad. Anyway, it was fun trading insults, of course I'll probably get suspened again, but........ I don't know you or your wife so obviosly what I say means nothing. And I sincerely wish you the best of luck in the immigration process. I won't rag on Australia, I hope to visit there someday as I have heard it is a wonderful country. Have a good weekend.

Likewise, I am only stirring you up a little. I like to stir the water every now and then.

I'm also not the reporting type. We're adults not 8 year I'm telling types.

[Heracles 417]

Economics has no boundaries. I really don't give a ####### who comes to America (legally or illegally). From an economic standpoint, it stimulates growth. The additional workers push wages down which pushes prices down. Again... the unemployment, high prices, and inflation is all thoroughly explained by the Austrian Business Cycle Theory that won FA Hayek a Nobel.

There is a huge difference in theory and reality. Heck, even communism sounds good in theory but fails miserably in practice. Which is why I have ask you time and time again to show me one, just one, place where the libertarian approach works.

Furthermore, you can beat on about theory all you like but show me one city where the people are living anywhere near as good of a life than a social capitalist society city Melbourne. Come on, just one. Average Joe vs average Joe. Social Capitalism vs libertarian (no government).

Government regulation and the promotion of equitable prosperity does work. The thought that you can simply close your eyes and the system will 'work itself out' goes against 5,000 years of human history.

Edited May 23, 2009 by Constellation

[scandal 951]

all jokes and silly insults aside, how is pointing out how much of a disgrace it is to see cities in that condition equate to hating the country? As you said, if I did actually hate the country I would have just left and said f-ck you guys. Your poverty and your problem, not mine. But then again I would just be doing the NE American thing. I care about this country so I want to see it succeed and prosper. I want to see all Americans living a good life rather than the select few, like the bastards I work with.

We don't live in silos downunder. Touch one touch all is not just a union mentality. When one part of Australia is hurting so is the rest. Whereas, a good portion of those who are doing well here simply don;t give a ####### about those millions living in poverty. Remember, Detroit is not some desolate city. People still live there. What future do you think they have?

It's no wonder people resort to crime here when they have nothing else. I work with people whose kids don't even know what Home depot is because they are so out of touch with reality. One of the managers daughter has a nice $90k car and has never stepped into a walmart in her life.

I am a right wing conservative back home but refuse to be a Republican here. why?we just don't share the same definition of what country first means.

Constellation, I won't get into the down and dirty insult trading with you as spooky did. That's his style (he does it with Marc all the time), it's usually not mine.

I will make a few points here, in all seriousness. You will no doubt respond, and you can have the last word. I don't intend to continue debating with you.

This thread was initiated as a serious discussion of the finer points of the US Constitution, particularly the significance of the General Welfare clause as it relates to the legality of many important federal laws in this country. Many people added their views. Some (e.g. Gary) I disagree with strongly, but at least he stayed on topic. You have diverged this thread way, way off topic into a comparative assessment of America and other countries. Fine - this is hardly the first VJ thread to veer off course. I like hijacking threads myself some times.

However, what I really don't like about you is the smug certainty you have that you are so absolutely right about everything that no one else could possibly have a valid point to make. You apparently think having a Constitution is silly and debating its significance is silly. You think there is a lot wrong with America. You know what? Fine. You're entitled to your views. And you can post them all day long for all I care. But the fact that you are unable to listen to anyone else's perspective or to consider that anyone else may have a point to make means that there is no dialogue with you. It's all one way.

It just so happens that most of us, Americans and non-Americans, citizens, immigrants, and wannabe-immigrants - think that America is a land of opportunity and are proud of this country, and proud of its system of government. Amazingly enough, that statement holds true for the most ardent conservative and the most unabashed liberal. Americans are rightfully proud of their country. We may want to improve things, we may believe many things need fixing. Yes, Detroit and other American cities are suffering urban decay and that's a sad thing to see. Thank you for pointing that out to us. But we don't challenge the basic foundation the republic is built upon. We work within the system, by advocating for better government, by voting, by volunteering, by paying our taxes.

The US Constitution is the framework and backdrop to that model of "working within the system" in this country. Hence discussing its significance is not an archaic exercise in history, it's relevant to all the hotly debated issues of our time - abortion, stem cell research, detention of War on Terror combatants, gun registration, you name it. Each year the Supreme Court decides which cases they will put on the docket and will rule upon. And each year new laws get made, challenged, interpreted, upheld, and overturned. Our system constantly remakes itself. You may think it's all silly and a waste of time. We don't. For that matter - neither do other nations, including your homeland of Australia. Here's a link to the Australian constitution which sets out the Australian system of government and roles of Parliament, the courts, etc. : http://www.comlaw.gov.au/comlaw/comlaw.nsf...titutionAct.pdf . It was inspired in no small part by the US Constitution, the first attempt in modern times to create such a document.

Just as you have the right to your opinions, so too we have the rights to ours. You are tiresome and droll in your perpetual attacks on this country and those of us who are proud of it. I'm with spooky on one point: since you obviously think things are so much better elsewhere, by all means go. Leave as soon as possible. We're not holding you back!

Ok, you may continue with your ranting and tell me all about how I just don't get the finer points of your argument.

[mRx 16]

Economics has no boundaries. I really don't give a ####### who comes to America (legally or illegally). From an economic standpoint, it stimulates growth. The additional workers push wages down which pushes prices down. Again... the unemployment, high prices, and inflation is all thoroughly explained by the Austrian Business Cycle Theory that won FA Hayek a Nobel.

There is a huge difference in theory and reality. Heck, even communism sounds good in theory but fails miserably in practice. Which is why I have ask you time and time again to show me one, just one, place where the libertarian approach works.

Theory is an explanation of reality. As it applies to ABCT, the theory explains that monetary expansion leads to high prices, wealth gaps, malinvestments and eventual unemployment. I've read many theories of why recessions come about. I agree with the one proposed by FA Hayek (and apparently others do, as he earned a Nobel for it).

I don't know why you consistently use the "where does the free-market actually work" as a cop-out. Market economies work everywhere-- From when you buy your latte, to when you sell your labor at your job.

The theory of the market economy is sound, and agreed upon by all economists. Where the trouble begins is when the "social good" comes into play.

Your Populist views are the ones that don't work, and historically never have.

[spookyturtle 9,465]

Constellation, I won't get into the down and dirty insult trading with you as spooky did. That's his style (he does it with Marc all the time), it's usually not mine.

Try it, it's fun.

[Heracles 417]

Constellation, I won't get into the down and dirty insult trading with you as spooky did. That's his style (he does it with Marc all the time), it's usually not mine.

I will make a few points here, in all seriousness. You will no doubt respond, and you can have the last word. I don't intend to continue debating with you.

This thread was initiated as a serious discussion of the finer points of the US Constitution, particularly the significance of the General Welfare clause as it relates to the legality of many important federal laws in this country. Many people added their views. Some (e.g. Gary) I disagree with strongly, but at least he stayed on topic. You have diverged this thread way, way off topic into a comparative assessment of America and other countries. Fine - this is hardly the first VJ thread to veer off course. I like hijacking threads myself some times.

However, what I really don't like about you is the smug certainty you have that you are so absolutely right about everything that no one else could possibly have a valid point to make. You apparently think having a Constitution is silly and debating its significance is silly. You think there is a lot wrong with America. You know what? Fine. You're entitled to your views. And you can post them all day long for all I care. But the fact that you are unable to listen to anyone else's perspective or to consider that anyone else may have a point to make means that there is no dialogue with you. It's all one way.

It just so happens that most of us, Americans and non-Americans, citizens, immigrants, and wannabe-immigrants - think that America is a land of opportunity and are proud of this country, and proud of its system of government. Amazingly enough, that statement holds true for the most ardent conservative and the most unabashed liberal. Americans are rightfully proud of their country. We may want to improve things, we may believe many things need fixing. Yes, Detroit and other American cities are suffering urban decay and that's a sad thing to see. Thank you for pointing that out to us. But we don't challenge the basic foundation the republic is built upon. We work within the system, by advocating for better government, by voting, by volunteering, by paying our taxes.

The US Constitution is the framework and backdrop to that model of "working within the system" in this country. Hence discussing its significance is not an archaic exercise in history, it's relevant to all the hotly debated issues of our time - abortion, stem cell research, detention of War on Terror combatants, gun registration, you name it. Each year the Supreme Court decides which cases they will put on the docket and will rule upon. And each year new laws get made, challenged, interpreted, upheld, and overturned. Our system constantly remakes itself. You may think it's all silly and a waste of time. We don't. For that matter - neither do other nations, including your homeland of Australia. Here's a link to the Australian constitution which sets out the Australian system of government and roles of Parliament, the courts, etc. : http://www.comlaw.gov.au/comlaw/comlaw.nsf...titutionAct.pdf . It was inspired in no small part by the US Constitution, the first attempt in modern times to create such a document.

Just as you have the right to your opinions, so too we have the rights to ours. You are tiresome and droll in your perpetual attacks on this country and those of us who are proud of it. I'm with spooky on one point: since you obviously think things are so much better elsewhere, by all means go. Leave as soon as possible. We're not holding you back!

Ok, you may continue with your ranting and tell me all about how I just don't get the finer points of your argument.

I am not disputing your points or opinions. They are all valid. What I am disputing is the constant waste of time discussing irrelevant issues. Further, a believe a lot of us from abroad have a story of two and can vouch for the fact that some Americans are less inclined to accept positive criticism than others. Why is that? Or is that invalid unless I can produce an academic journal to back it up.

I hate to say it but unfortunately it hard to break the shell without an insult. As others have pointed out, the second the Constitution is brought into the equation, people go into a trance like auto-pilot mode and preach what they have learned since birth. I couldn't believe that kids have to sing the national anthem here almost on a daily basis. We just don't do that back home. We want people want to be Australian because the love Australia. Not because it has been ingrained in them. Also a reason why we don't have as many psychos trying to bomb the country. Regardless to popular belief, people are not trying to attack or have attacked the country because they are somehow jealous of it.

Those who don't want to change are doomed to fail. It doesn't mean changing your core beliefs but it does mean being dynamic to response to the pressures and issue of the time. You are right, the Australian constitution was built on the United States Constitution. They used its strengths yet nullified its ambiguity and weaknesses. Which is why the system is so dynamic. If something is an issue or of concern, the laws change accordingly to deal with it. Like immigrants having babies to gain citizenship. Whereas when it comes to the US, once it is written, it is written period.

The county / city system is a failure an Detroit is proof of that, Further, each state collecting their own tax is a failure too. Whereas under a federal tax system the government is able to allocate resources to prevent a Detroit from happening in the first place. of course there is a lot more to Detroit than money, like white flight which affected it.

Rather than hating on Toyota or pretending the don't exist, why not learn from them? As Toyota learned from US manufacturers years ago. But I guess we are still the Chrysler, per say, at the denial stage . "Nothing wrong with our trucks..". Much in the same way ANZ utilized your company's services, because you are good at what you do, the United States needs to learn from countries like Canada and Australia. Canada as in above the US Canada

It becomes very dangerous when any constructive criticism is taken as country bashing. Such attitudes have lead to the fall of many nations.

Edited May 23, 2009 by Constellation

[Heracles 417]

PS A number of grammatical errors in my posts but I cannot edit it.

You also say people want to improve things yet I see zero evidence of it. For a country that has so many highly educated people, you are quite short on common sense. There is a lot I see around me, state to state, that I think to myself, are you guys serious. Have you never been to other developed countries?

Edited May 23, 2009 by Constellation

[Heracles 417]

For a start, basics like:

• Street Lights
• Properly paved road
• Clean Roads
• Side walk
• Properly marked roads (with reflectors)

You seem like an intelligent guy uscandual, so don't you notice these things when you travel to places like Australia, Europe or developed countries in Asia?

Don't you see how infrastructure here is almost third world grade when compared to that of even second world countries? Australia has the first and second tallest apartment buildings in the world. Not too shabby for a country of 21 million.

What about crime? The homicide rate in Chicago is one of the highest in the United States, if not the highest. Population of Chicago is: 8,711,000 Sydney: 4,119,190

Yet why such a huge disparity in crime. And I can tell you one thing, there are some violent people in Sydney who would make MS-13, Crips, bloods piss their pants. We were convicts after all. Hence the Cronulla riots. The Crips would become the crippled there. . Then again we don' have the ACLU and NAACP types protecting the thugs.

Edited May 23, 2009 by Constellation

[I AM NOT THAT GUY 5,715]

I can't believe you freaks spent the whole day arguing about meaningless #######. Go outside and get some sun you vampires!

[spookyturtle 9,465]

I can't believe you freaks spent the whole day arguing about meaningless #######. Go outside and get some sun you vampires!

Marc should be arriving shortly.

[Danno 1,228]

Constellation, you really need to see more of the country, you keep waving Detroit as an indicator or what's typical.

You speak as if there is poverty on every corner, I see that on very few corners.

You probably do come from a wonderful country which explains why you have more tourist than we do..... don't you?

[scandal 951]

I can't believe you freaks spent the whole day arguing about meaningless #######. Go outside and get some sun you vampires!

I just got home after a lovely dinner with some cousins who were in town. Happy now?

[I AM NOT THAT GUY 5,715]

I can't believe you freaks spent the whole day arguing about meaningless #######. Go outside and get some sun you vampires!

I just got home after a lovely dinner with some cousins who were in town. Happy now?

Better. I spent the afternoon winching my old truck around so I can take the service body off tomorrow. Loads of fun. How could the Egyptians have built the pyramids without a come-along?