Egypt's Muslim Brotherhood dismisses Obama speech

[Scott & Lai 12]

I have sympathies for the Palestinians as well. Many of them are civilians who simply want to lead a normal life and have been trapped in a historic struggle over a small piece of territory. Their own leadership has sold them out many times over the years.

When you write the phrase "... as those of the Zionists" I am not sure if you recognize that that is an inflammatory remark. The word Zionist is in itself not a bad one. I am a Zionist - the word, when used with a positive connotation, implies one who believes in the inherent right of the Jewish people to a state of their own in their historic homeland after 2000 years of Diaspora and longing to return to that ancient homeland. However when used in the context of the Israeli/Palestinian dispute as a way to castigate Israel (as you appear to be doing) the word Zionist has become a code word for those who consider Israel as a pariah state, an apartheid and racist state with no legitimacy. It's a thinly veiled way for such people to claim to be anti-Israel without being anti-semitic. You're on thin ice using that word in the context you've used it.

And, I also disagree with your last sentence. There ARE good guys in this story. There are moderates on both sides who truly do want to find a peaceful and lasting resolution to the dispute. I'd like to think I'm one of those. It's very difficult and discouraging to be a moderate in that part of the world, since the extremists seem to have a way of dominating the agenda. But if you give up hope, there will be no hope. Millions of people there are depending upon some hope for a resolution. To say that there are no good guys is defeatist and is denying the good intentions of those who have courageously stood for peace and dialogue in the region.

ita

[c_and_a 0]

just draw a bulls eye on yourself, why don'tcha?

I am wary of the new governmental regime in Israel right now though from what I have read about them he is at odds with the Egyptian President and is not willing to make another state for the Palestinian's as proposed prior by Presidents. A state for them seems to be critical for peace in the Middle East as it is the root of many of the issues these groups are warring over.

Yes. The new government in Israel is a right wing coalition which Netanyahu formed partly due to his own Likud ideology but mostly due to the fractious nature of domestic Israeli politics. It is very hard to form a centrist coalition there, esp. in the recent period. I too am concerned about the path this new government will lead Israel down. I would have preferred that Tzipi Livni would have won a strong mandate for the Kadimah party in the last election and had been able to form a government. But that is not the popular sentiment in the electorate at this time.

My sympathies are much more with the Palestinian people than they are for the state of Israel.

At the same time, the actions Arab states and the Palestinian elite throughout the past 100 years or so almost as reprehensible as those of the Zionists. There are no good guys in this story.

I have sympathies for the Palestinians as well. Many of them are civilians who simply want to lead a normal life and have been trapped in a historic struggle over a small piece of territory. Their own leadership has sold them out many times over the years.

When you write the phrase "... as those of the Zionists" I am not sure if you recognize that that is an inflammatory remark. The word Zionist is in itself not a bad one. I am a Zionist - the word, when used with a positive connotation, implies one who believes in the inherent right of the Jewish people to a state of their own in their historic homeland after 2000 years of Diaspora and longing to return to that ancient homeland. However when used in the context of the Israeli/Palestinian dispute as a way to castigate Israel (as you appear to be doing) the word Zionist has become a code word for those who consider Israel as a pariah state, an apartheid and racist state with no legitimacy. It's a thinly veiled way for such people to claim to be anti-Israel without being anti-semitic. You're on thin ice using that word in the context you've used it.

And, I also disagree with your last sentence. There ARE good guys in this story. There are moderates on both sides who truly do want to find a peaceful and lasting resolution to the dispute. I'd like to think I'm one of those. It's very difficult and discouraging to be a moderate in that part of the world, since the extremists seem to have a way of dominating the agenda. But if you give up hope, there will be no hope. Millions of people there are depending upon some hope for a resolution. To say that there are no good guys is defeatist and is denying the good intentions of those who have courageously stood for peace and dialogue in the region.

Woah there.

By Zionists I only mean the settlers. I have no problem with Israel proper. Aloof, elitist landowners in Lebanon, Jordan, and Syria created the state of Israel as much as the Israelis themselves did by selling their lands in Palestine to the Jews. And then some of them are going to turn around and say Israel should not exist? You dug your own grave, idiots.

[The_Dude 1,142]

just draw a bulls eye on yourself, why don'tcha?

I am wary of the new governmental regime in Israel right now though from what I have read about them he is at odds with the Egyptian President and is not willing to make another state for the Palestinian's as proposed prior by Presidents. A state for them seems to be critical for peace in the Middle East as it is the root of many of the issues these groups are warring over.

Yes. The new government in Israel is a right wing coalition which Netanyahu formed partly due to his own Likud ideology but mostly due to the fractious nature of domestic Israeli politics. It is very hard to form a centrist coalition there, esp. in the recent period. I too am concerned about the path this new government will lead Israel down. I would have preferred that Tzipi Livni would have won a strong mandate for the Kadimah party in the last election and had been able to form a government. But that is not the popular sentiment in the electorate at this time.

My sympathies are much more with the Palestinian people than they are for the state of Israel.

At the same time, the actions Arab states and the Palestinian elite throughout the past 100 years or so almost as reprehensible as those of the Zionists. There are no good guys in this story.

I have sympathies for the Palestinians as well. Many of them are civilians who simply want to lead a normal life and have been trapped in a historic struggle over a small piece of territory. Their own leadership has sold them out many times over the years.

When you write the phrase "... as those of the Zionists" I am not sure if you recognize that that is an inflammatory remark. The word Zionist is in itself not a bad one. I am a Zionist - the word, when used with a positive connotation, implies one who believes in the inherent right of the Jewish people to a state of their own in their historic homeland after 2000 years of Diaspora and longing to return to that ancient homeland. However when used in the context of the Israeli/Palestinian dispute as a way to castigate Israel (as you appear to be doing) the word Zionist has become a code word for those who consider Israel as a pariah state, an apartheid and racist state with no legitimacy. It's a thinly veiled way for such people to claim to be anti-Israel without being anti-semitic. You're on thin ice using that word in the context you've used it.

And, I also disagree with your last sentence. There ARE good guys in this story. There are moderates on both sides who truly do want to find a peaceful and lasting resolution to the dispute. I'd like to think I'm one of those. It's very difficult and discouraging to be a moderate in that part of the world, since the extremists seem to have a way of dominating the agenda. But if you give up hope, there will be no hope. Millions of people there are depending upon some hope for a resolution. To say that there are no good guys is defeatist and is denying the good intentions of those who have courageously stood for peace and dialogue in the region.

Woah there.

By Zionists I only mean the settlers. I have no problem with Israel proper. Aloof, elitist landowners in Lebanon, Jordan, and Syria created the state of Israel as much as the Israelis themselves did by selling their lands in Palestine to the Jews. And then some of them are going to turn around and say Israel should not exist? You dug your own grave, idiots.

You say that you have no problem with Israel proper, but you blame the creation on Israel on a group of people as if it were some sort of tragedy.

[c_and_a 0]

just draw a bulls eye on yourself, why don'tcha?

I am wary of the new governmental regime in Israel right now though from what I have read about them he is at odds with the Egyptian President and is not willing to make another state for the Palestinian's as proposed prior by Presidents. A state for them seems to be critical for peace in the Middle East as it is the root of many of the issues these groups are warring over.

Yes. The new government in Israel is a right wing coalition which Netanyahu formed partly due to his own Likud ideology but mostly due to the fractious nature of domestic Israeli politics. It is very hard to form a centrist coalition there, esp. in the recent period. I too am concerned about the path this new government will lead Israel down. I would have preferred that Tzipi Livni would have won a strong mandate for the Kadimah party in the last election and had been able to form a government. But that is not the popular sentiment in the electorate at this time.

My sympathies are much more with the Palestinian people than they are for the state of Israel.

At the same time, the actions Arab states and the Palestinian elite throughout the past 100 years or so almost as reprehensible as those of the Zionists. There are no good guys in this story.

I have sympathies for the Palestinians as well. Many of them are civilians who simply want to lead a normal life and have been trapped in a historic struggle over a small piece of territory. Their own leadership has sold them out many times over the years.

When you write the phrase "... as those of the Zionists" I am not sure if you recognize that that is an inflammatory remark. The word Zionist is in itself not a bad one. I am a Zionist - the word, when used with a positive connotation, implies one who believes in the inherent right of the Jewish people to a state of their own in their historic homeland after 2000 years of Diaspora and longing to return to that ancient homeland. However when used in the context of the Israeli/Palestinian dispute as a way to castigate Israel (as you appear to be doing) the word Zionist has become a code word for those who consider Israel as a pariah state, an apartheid and racist state with no legitimacy. It's a thinly veiled way for such people to claim to be anti-Israel without being anti-semitic. You're on thin ice using that word in the context you've used it.

And, I also disagree with your last sentence. There ARE good guys in this story. There are moderates on both sides who truly do want to find a peaceful and lasting resolution to the dispute. I'd like to think I'm one of those. It's very difficult and discouraging to be a moderate in that part of the world, since the extremists seem to have a way of dominating the agenda. But if you give up hope, there will be no hope. Millions of people there are depending upon some hope for a resolution. To say that there are no good guys is defeatist and is denying the good intentions of those who have courageously stood for peace and dialogue in the region.

Woah there.

By Zionists I only mean the settlers. I have no problem with Israel proper. Aloof, elitist landowners in Lebanon, Jordan, and Syria created the state of Israel as much as the Israelis themselves did by selling their lands in Palestine to the Jews. And then some of them are going to turn around and say Israel should not exist? You dug your own grave, idiots.

You say that you have no problem with Israel proper, but you blame the creation on Israel on a group of people as if it were some sort of tragedy.

So you think it is okay that most Palestinians that once resided in Israel proper lost their land due solely to the actions of others? The only crime they initially committed is that they happened to be there.

[The_Dude 1,142]

[scandal 951]

Woah there.

By Zionists I only mean the settlers. I have no problem with Israel proper. Aloof, elitist landowners in Lebanon, Jordan, and Syria created the state of Israel as much as the Israelis themselves did by selling their lands in Palestine to the Jews. And then some of them are going to turn around and say Israel should not exist? You dug your own grave, idiots.

....

So you think it is okay that most Palestinians that once resided in Israel proper lost their land due solely to the actions of others? The only crime they initially committed is that they happened to be there.

Regarding Zionists - if you want to refer to a subset of Israelis (those living in the West Bank) as 'Zionists' you'd better be explicit and say so. That's not at all how any Israelis classify themselves. That's like saying 'Americans' but referring only to those who live east of the Mississippi or some such. Nobody you're speaking to is going to have your implicit context, or agree with your classification.

Regarding the history. It's a very complex story. Was there a "Palestine" during 400 years of the Ottoman Empire? (There was not - it was a dusty annex controlled administratively from Damascus.) Was there a Palestine in previous periods of Mamaluk or Crusader control? There was not. There were simply people - Jewish, Muslim, Christian - of various ethnicities who lived in the historic Holy Land for centuries while it was a vassal province of one empire or another. The notion of a modern Palestine is about as recent as the notion of the modern rebirth of Zionist Israel, less so in fact. Modern Zionism dates to 19th century Herzl, Palestine as a distinct people and state dates to the British Mandate era. None of this denies the legitimate claims of people who had lived there for generations and suffered through the upheavals of the region. I am sympathetic to the plight of civilians on both sides and would truly like to see a permanent lasting solution. But the history is not merely one of occupiers and occupied.

There are now two peoples who both have legitimate historical claims to the same piece of territory. That's not unique in this world - think of the Balkans or Ulster.In some cases these disputes get resolved on some basis of either sharing the territory or agreeing to divide it. In some cases the disputes don't get resolved and ongoing violence ensues. That is the tragedy in the Middle East. Israel has a population of approximately 20% Palestinian Arabs as well as Druse and Beduin. These are citizens of Israel who live within its borders and are entitled to the rights of citizens (healthcare, education, etc.) From a practical point of view any solution should take these facts into account in a solution that has both mixed populations in a territory, and a division of territory. There ought to be a predominantly Jewish state with a non-Jewish minority whose rights are protected. And there ought to be a Palestinian state which recognizes Israel and the rights of Jewish residents of Israel to have access to historical sites such as Hebron, Kiryat Arba etc, and which also takes into account the existence of towns such as Ariel and Ma'ale Adumim which it's simply not practical to talk of dismantling.