Israel Plunges Gaza Into Darkness

[desert_fox 32]

Lets not forget we are talking about 1.3 million people affected by this outage...

I wouldn't call the creation of the State of Israel a diplomatic affair...

then maybe their own ppl will put pressure on their own govt to bring an end to this nonsense.

But the reality in me....thinks that it will continue.

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

then maybe their own ppl will put pressure on their own govt to bring an end to this nonsense.

But the reality in me....thinks that it will continue.

Its ####### for tat escalation - which is again why this is unjustifiable. At some point common sense will have to prevail.

[Ban Hammer 13,133]

Lets not forget we are talking about 1.3 million people affected by this outage...

so what you're saying is diplomacy didn't work then...what's the hopes of it working now? i'm not crossing my fingers and holding my breath.

I wouldn't call the creation of the State of Israel a diplomatic affair...

then what would you call it?

Actually you should go back and read (objectively) what I wrote earlier - rather than jumping (semantically) over every subsequent statement I make regardless of the original context.

At no point have I suggested that terrorism on the part of the Palestinians is justifiable, quite the opposite. I simply see no justification in Israel using its military in a manner that legitimises it and encourages the commission of fresh atrocities.

In that regard, destroying the civilian power station serves no practical purpose other than to intimidate and create fear.

if you think so

As I see it, they (the Israelis) have a greater bargaining position than the Palestinians who we've established have a weak centralised government and law enforcement capability.

i don't see it at all. too many are whining about israel and the palestinians will appeal to all the bleeding hearts and israel will have to cave in.

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

then what would you call it?

Imposed. Yep that would be be about right.

i don't see it at all. too many are whining about israel and the palestinians will appeal to all the bleeding hearts and israel will have to cave in.

Ultimately I think you and I have fundamentally different views of how terrorism should be fought. That's all I'll say.

[PalestineMyHeart 1,897]

I'm baaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaack

Now, more responses to some of the posts:

Yeah, because the US media just ADORES Israel.

I'm glad you brought this up, because..... well.... the U.S. media sure treats the subject as if it does.

In the first study period ABC, CBS, and NBC reported Israeli deaths at rates 3.1, 3.8, and 4.0 times higher than Palestinian deaths, respectively. In 2004 these rates increased or stayed constant, to 4.0, 3.8, and 4.4, widening still further, in the case of ABC and NBC, the disparity in coverage. An additional sub-study of deaths reported in introductions revealed a similar but even larger disparity. The networks’ coverage of children’s deaths was even more skewed. In the first year of the current uprising, ABC, CBS, and NBC reported Israeli children’s deaths at 13.8, 6.4, and 12.4 times the rate of Palestinian children’s deaths. In 2004 these large differentials were also present, although they decreased in two cases, with deaths of Israeli children covered at rates 9.0, 12.8, and 9.9 times greater than the deaths of Palestinian children by ABC, CBS, and NBC, respectively. Given that in 2004 22 times more Palestinian children were killed than Israeli children, this category holds particular importance. We could find no basis on which to justify this inequality in coverage.

http://www.ifamericansknew.org/media/net-report.html

Take the case of Gilo, an Israeli settlement that some pro-settler groups have used as a focal point for their campaigns to eliminate the term "settlements" in favor of "neighborhoods." In September 2001, CNN changed its policy on how to characterize Gilo: "We refer to Gilo as 'a Jewish neighborhood on the outskirts of Jerusalem, built on land occupied by Israel in 1967.' We don't refer to it as a settlement," said the order from CNN headquarters. CNN denies that its decision was a concession to outside pressure, but according to veteran Middle East reporter Robert Fisk (London Independent, 9/3/01), sources within the network said that the switch followed "months of internal debate in CNN, which has been constantly criticized by CNN Watch, honestreporting.com and other pro-Israeli pressure groups."

CNN is far from the only outlet that has trouble identifying Gilo. Media critic Ali Abunimah pointed out in a June 20 letter to NPR that the network's coverage of the suicide bombings that killed 26 Israelis that day incorrectly asserted that the attacks took place in "Jerusalem." In fact, they occurred in the settlements of Gilo and French Hill, both of which are outside of Jerusalem's traditional city limits, on land illegally annexed by Israel. Abunimah explained that "while absolutely nothing can justify such attacks...geographical accuracy in reporting remains supremely important," especially given the emotional intensity of the subject.

In a May 29 article about Palestinian attacks on Israelis, New York Times correspondent John Kifner reported the Israeli army's efforts to erect fortified barriers between Bethlehem and Gilo, which Kifner described as "a nearby East Jerusalem neighborhood, where a sprawling Jewish area has been built on land seized after the war of 1967." The sentence would have been a lot easier to parse if Kifner had called Gilo what it is: an Israeli settlement.

http://www.fair.org/index.php?page=2645

[Artegal 1]

Its not a stereotype to say that the US Media is controlled by a majority of Jewish people. It is indeed a fact. So of course the Media will put a spin that is pro-israel. But what is the view from the other side, unjust and tragic as the situation is in Gaza, its also fact that the Palestinians are not and have not been an Ally of the US--infact furthermore Palestinian terrorist have killed and tried to kill American Citizens in the past, will try and kill again. So I wouldn't look for much sympathy for an enemy of the state, within the state.

[PalestineMyHeart 1,897]

Right or wrong, not all wars are winnable. Sometimes you just have to cut your losses and

admit defeat. Keep fighting and things will get worse. Blowing up a bus or a restaurant here

and there is not going to bring Israel to its knees. The economy is better than ever, tourists

are returning, and the Israelis were never demoralised. Terror attacks? Business as usual.

Well I'm sure all supporters of Israel's illegal acts would be quite content if the Palestinians would "cut their losses and admit defeat." However, you are not considering what position the Palestinian people have been left in. People with little to nothing left to lose aren't really afraid of things "getting worse." And after 39 years of experience with continued Israeli aggression, continued Israeli attacks on their society and rights, and continued annexation of their land (despite numerous peace agreements) many have come to the conclusion that they have no real hope of things getting "better" by just sitting on their hands. And you can thank Israel for that.

Regarding the Israeli economy.... come on !! It's completely propped up by foreign aid (mostly U.S.) The economy is in ruins, in no small part due to the massive expenditures for the illegal settlements and the cost of keeping its army continually deployed in the West Bank.

If Israel was "really" such an economic success, why is the U.S. shelling out more than $5 billion a year to keep them afloat ? They get more than 1/3rd of the entire U.S. foreign aid budget, not to mention the other, less publicized means of skinning the American taxpayer ! Get real lol

... creating irreversible facts on the ground in occupied territories...

Irreversible? Fences and walls can be torn down, but lives can never be replaced.

Yes, fences and walls can be torn down. And they certainly should be, considering Israel built them on someone else's land.

But it's the illegal settlements in the West Bank, along with the system designed to enable them and the Israeli soldiers who protect them that are the real root of the problem, so they need to go, too.

[PalestineMyHeart 1,897]

They have been fighting for over a thousand years now, and will be fighting a thousand years from now if this planet still exists. Fighting over a difference in religion......same cause of virtually every war known to mankind.

Commonly held misconception, as it's repeated over and over, but totally erroneous.

Muslims and Jews in the Holy Land had lived in relative peace since before the Crusades. The current hostilities in Palestine began around the turn of the 20th century, when the Zionists began arriving and forcibly pushing Arabs off their land, proclaiming their apartheid state based on "brutality, subjugation and annexation" of the land of Palestine.

Well indeed.....if they had converted to Judaism and learned Hebrew, Israel would welcome them as citizens with open arms.

Makes for a laugh, I guess.... but again, totally unrealistic. Judaism sternly frowns on "converts," and tries to discourage them as much as possible.

Muslim countries never required their Jewish citizens to "convert." Why should the Israelis take a page from the Spanish Inquisition ?

And by the way.... many, many Palestinians (especially the men) already speak fluent Hebrew. My husband is one of them.

According to the Geneva Convention, to which Israel is a signatory, collective punishment is a war crime.

That's actually a crucial point. Militant groups and individuals outside of the control or direct influence of the government is somewhat different to authorising your armed forces to go into a country (which you are not formally at war with) and knocking out essential services to the people of the region.

However you look at it, its not justifiable...

Thank you. For some reason the point is not clear to some.

Also, the current Prime Minister of Israel, Ehud Olmert, has issued a statement threatening the assassination of the Palestinian Prime Minister. Such an act would also be a war crime, under international law.

[mawilson 2,133]

Regarding the Israeli economy.... come on !! It's completely propped up by foreign aid (mostly U.S.) The economy is in ruins, in no small part due to the massive expenditures for the illegal settlements and the cost of keeping its army continually deployed in the West Bank.

If Israel was "really" such an economic success, why is the U.S. shelling out more than $5 billion a year to keep them afloat ? They get more than 1/3rd of the entire U.S. foreign aid budget, not to mention the other, less publicized means of skinning the American taxpayer ! Get real lol

Israel's GDP: $154.5 billion (2005)

GDP growth rate: 5.2% (2005)

US foreign aid in 1994: $3 billion

US foreign aid in 2004: $2.62 billion

Do the maths.

PS. Iraq is by far the largest recipient of U.S. assistance in 2004 at $18.44 billion.

Edited July 3, 2006 by mawilson

[mawilson 2,133]

The economy is in ruins, in no small part due to the massive expenditures for the illegal settlements and the cost of keeping its army continually deployed in the West Bank.

Israel has universal conscription -- the costs of keeping its army are very low.

As for the "economy in ruins", I can only say "LOL".

The Israeli economy at a glance

[PalestineMyHeart 1,897]

Regarding the Israeli economy.... come on !! It's completely propped up by foreign aid (mostly U.S.) The economy is in ruins, in no small part due to the massive expenditures for the illegal settlements and the cost of keeping its army continually deployed in the West Bank.

If Israel was "really" such an economic success, why is the U.S. shelling out more than $5 billion a year to keep them afloat ? They get more than 1/3rd of the entire U.S. foreign aid budget, not to mention the other, less publicized means of skinning the American taxpayer ! Get real lol

Israel's GDP: $154.5 billion (2005)

GDP growth rate: 5.2% (2005)

US foreign aid in 1994: $3 billion

US foreign aid in 2004: $2.62 billion

Do the maths.

PS. Iraq is by far the largest recipient of U.S. assistance in 2004 at $18.44 billion.

You would characterize this tiny pittance in payment for the trillions of dollars worth of damages inflicted on Iraq during the illegal invasion as "U.S. assistance" ????? Well that's the Mother of All Spins

Back to Israel. Your equation focuses on "foreign aid," conveniently ignoring the military aid, special trade advantages, preferential contracts, aid buried in other accounts, and low-cost loan guarantees, which are all added separately and on top of the foreign aid, and which raise the amount significantly higher.

In fact, here's what slid through in one of those "buried" deals just last year:

Israel, which would be awarded $9 billion in loan guarantees through September 2005 in the emergency budget request, would receive the largest sum of additional military aid at $1 billion. That would be in addition to the more than $2 billion in U.S. military aid Israel already receives annually.

http://www.armscontrol.org/act/2003_04/warbudget_apr03.asp

Of course I haven't even mentioned the billions paid to Egypt and Jordan to buy their acquiescence in "peace deals" with Israel.

But what should rankle American working stiffs even more is how they got stuck with the cost of the oil-supply crises that have accompanied the Israeli-Arab wars and the construction of the Strategic Petroleum Reserve:

When Israel was losing the war, President Richard Nixon stepped in to supply the Jewish state with U.S. weapons. Nixon’s intervention triggered the Arab oil embargo which Stauffer estimates cost the U.S. as much as $600 billion in lost GDP and another $450 in higher oil import costs.

As a result of the oil embargo the United States created the Strategic Petroleum Reserve (SPR) to “insulate Israel and the U.S. against the wielding of a future Arab ‘oil weapon.’” The billion-barrel SPR has cost U.S. taxpayers $134 billion to date. According to an Oil Supply Guarantee, which former Secretary of State Henry Kissinger provided Israel in 1975, Israel gets “first call” on any oil available to the U.S. if Israel’s oil supply is stopped.

Loans made to Israel by the U.S. government, like the recently awarded $9 billion, invariably wind up being paid by the American taxpayer. A recent Congressional Research Service report indicates that Israel has received $42 billion in waived loans. “Therefore, it is reasonable to consider all government loans to Israel the same as grants,” McArthur says.

Support for Israel has cost America dearly – well over than $10,000 per American – however the Israeli-Palestinian conflict has been extremely costly for the entire world. According to Stauffer, the total bill for supporting Israel is two to four times higher than that for the U.S. alone – costing the global community an estimated $6 to $12 trillion.

http://www.thetruthseeker.co.uk/article.asp?ID=831

But somehow, the continued largesse of the American taxpayer is just never enough:

Israel Asks U.S. For More Money

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/2513159.stm

Israel Asks Strapped U.S. Taxpayers for $14 Billion—No Strings Attached

http://www.washington-report.org/archives/...03/0301006.html

Israel Asks For Billions To Offset Cost of US Military Strike

http://www.cnsnews.com/ViewForeignBureaus....R20021218c.html

Israel Seeks 400% Hike in US Aid

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article1889.htm

You know, these jokers even wanted the U.S. to pay for the Gaza pullout -- to the tune of $2.2 billion -- up to half a million for each settler family And this was after they had defied the U.S. for 39 years by placing their illegal settlements there in the first place.

http://www.usembassy.it/pdf/other/RS22000.pdf

Yes, please, let's "do the maths." Because if you do, you will see that the U.S. has sunk an estimated THREE TRILLION dollars into/for Israel, and that was only by 2002.

Keep trying to convince yourself that Israel makes its dough "the old-fashioned way." Because such a strong economy wouldn't need all this charity, now, would it ? Or are you admitting *gasp* that Israeli is just gouging Uncle Sap ?

Fact is, Israel is a bottomless pit for American tax dollars.

The economy is in ruins, in no small part due to the massive expenditures for the illegal settlements and the cost of keeping its army continually deployed in the West Bank.

Israel has universal conscription -- the costs of keeping its army are very low.

As for the "economy in ruins", I can only say "LOL".

The Israeli economy at a glance

Do you actually believe that the major cost of establishing and deploying an army is what you pay "conscripts" ? Get a clue. The major cost is the hardware -- warplanes, tanks, missiles, artillery, etc.

And yes, as long as Uncle Sap keeps propping up this crime nest, Israel can LOL all the way to the bank.

[dalegg 143]

Got to love the latest Hamas ultimatum.

"You have 24 hours before we kill this soldier, and you come in and flatten the rest of our territory"

[mawilson 2,133]

Israel Asks U.S. For More Money

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/2513159.stm

Israel Asks Strapped U.S. Taxpayers for $14 Billion—No Strings Attached

http://www.washington-report.org/archives/...03/0301006.html

Israel Asks For Billions To Offset Cost of US Military Strike

http://www.cnsnews.com/ViewForeignBureaus....R20021218c.html

Israel Seeks 400% Hike in US Aid

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article1889.htm

See a pattern here? "Israel asks for this" and "Israel asks for that", but nothing definitive

to prove that "Israel got this and that".

I focused on foreign aid, because it was your initial statement that "[israeli economy]

is completely propped up by foreign aid" of "more than $5 billion a year" which is "more

than 1/3rd of the entire U.S. foreign aid budget". I pointed out that $2-3 billion that

Israel gets from the US is a) hardly 1/3 of the US foreign aid budget (seeing that Iraq

got 18 billion last year), and b ) less than 2% of Israel's GDP.

Loan guarantees do not qualify as foreign aid - they simply allow Israel to borrow money

at a low interest rate. The guarantees are free to the US taxpayer unless Israel defaults

on a loan which it never has.

If you think letting Israel borrow money is the same as giving them foreign aid, then by

the same rationale the US economy is "completely propped up by Chinese foreign aid",

because the US borrows money from Asian countries (mostly China and Japan) to finance

its soaring trade deficit. In fact, the rest of the world is "subsidizing" the US economy

at a rate of more than $2 billion per day.

Israel makes its own weapons -- warplanes, tanks and missiles -- that are just as good

as the weapons supplied by the US, and come with no strings attached.

The Merkava MK 4 tank:

About 200 factories take part in the manufacturing of the tank (main contractors and

subcontractors). The major manufacturers include: Elbit - El Op (control systems), the

IDF (main construction, assembly and testing), IMI (main gun, protection components

and transmission), Urdan (armor castings), IAI-Ramta (protection components). The

majority of the manufacturing is performed by the private sector. The rest is

performed by the IDF and state-owned industries.

Source: Israeli Weapons.

[PalestineMyHeart 1,897]

See a pattern here? "Israel asks for this" and "Israel asks for that", but nothing definitive

to prove that "Israel got this and that".

Oh, I definitely see a pattern here.

Despite your protestations, there's plenty of "definitive" evidence to show that Israel already is the recipient of more U.S. aid dollars than any other country in this world. And then has the chutzpah to keep asking for more.

I focused on foreign aid, because it was your initial statement that "[israeli economy]

is completely propped up by foreign aid" of "more than $5 billion a year" which is "more

than 1/3rd of the entire U.S. foreign aid budget".

You dissemble. As the record shows, you have very selectively quoted one part of my "initial statement," conveniently ignoring the context of the rest of the passage because it did not suit your attempt to debate it. Let me refresh your memory:

It's completely propped up by foreign aid (mostly U.S.) The economy is in ruins, in no small part due to the massive expenditures for the illegal settlements and the cost of keeping its army continually deployed in the West Bank.

If Israel was "really" such an economic success, why is the U.S. shelling out more than $5 billion a year to keep them afloat ? They get more than 1/3rd of the entire U.S. foreign aid budget, not to mention the other, less publicized means of skinning the American taxpayer !

So don't try to play games with what I stated.

Israel is not economically self-sufficient and relies on foreign assistance and borrowing to maintain its economy. It has been the single highest annual recipient of U.S. aid since 1976, and is the largest cumulative recipient of foreign assistance since WWII. Just step out of your state of denial for once and look it up.

I pointed out that $2-3 billion that

Israel gets from the US is a) hardly 1/3 of the US foreign aid budget (seeing that Iraq

got 18 billion last year), and b ) less than 2% of Israel's GDP.

In your continuing attempt to deflect attention from the staggering amount of U.S. tax dollars spent on/for Israel, you again try to cite/compare U.S. aid to Iraq. It's almost as if you begrudge any reparations (or responsibility) for repairing the massive damages the U.S. inflicted there. American attacks destroyed Iraqi infrastructure, and the U.S. knows it don't have a chance in hell of keeping the country under its influence without rebuilding some of that infrastructure. That's what the "aid" money is -- to rebuild some of what they destroyed in order to bolster political control. And it's nowhere near the cumulative amount of money that's been showered on Israel over the years.

Now we could get into "who" exactly Iraq could have been a threat to (certainly not the U.S.,) and "who" clamored for the war the loudest (just as they now clamor for a U.S. attack on Iran.) But that's another thread -- that is, if you care to open that can of worms.

Loan guarantees do not qualify as foreign aid - they simply allow Israel to borrow money

at a low interest rate. The guarantees are free to the US taxpayer unless Israel defaults

on a loan which it never has.

If you think letting Israel borrow money is the same as giving them foreign aid, then by

the same rationale the US economy is "completely propped up by Chinese foreign aid",

because the US borrows money from Asian countries (mostly China and Japan) to finance

its soaring trade deficit. In fact, the rest of the world is "subsidizing" the US economy

at a rate of more than $2 billion per day.

LOL. That was the beauty of Israel's arrangement, wasn't it ? Calling this type of aid "loan guarantees" seemed to indicate that the money would somehow be paid back, and helped shield the excess amount from public criticism. Only Israel doesn't pay it back. The U.S. has regularly waived the payment of loans due before maturity date.

In contrast, the Chinese expect their loans to be paid back (and to collect their interest) as you well know.

Here's another little exclusive "perk" for Israel. They get to earn (and keep) interest on the money we loan them:

Israel, unlike any other recipient of U.S. financial aid, receives its funds in a lump sum during the first month of the fiscal year, allowing it invest the funds in the U.S. and earn interest on them. The foreign assistance appropriation bill signed on November 5, 1990, provided this special treatment for Israel.

U.S. Agency for International Development officials estimate that it cost the American taxpayer between $50 million and $60 million to borrow funds for this early lump-sum payment to Israel. In addition, the U.S. government pays Israel interest on the anti-terrorism Economic Support Fund funds invested in U.S. Treasury notes, according to A.I.D. officials. It has been reported that Israel earned about $86 million in U.S. Treasury note interest in 1991.

Israel makes its own weapons -- warplanes, tanks and missiles -- that are just as good

as the weapons supplied by the US, and come with no strings attached.

The Merkava MK 4 tank:

About 200 factories take part in the manufacturing of the tank (main contractors and

subcontractors). The major manufacturers include: Elbit - El Op (control systems), the

IDF (main construction, assembly and testing), IMI (main gun, protection components

and transmission), Urdan (armor castings), IAI-Ramta (protection components). The

majority of the manufacturing is performed by the private sector. The rest is

performed by the IDF and state-owned industries.

Source: Israeli Weapons.

LOL You are really making this so easy. Because the U.S. taxpayer shelled out the cost of all that, too. Read it and weep:

In addition to the foreign assistance, the United States has provided Israel with $625 million to develop and deploy the Arrow anti-missile missile (an ongoing project), $1.3 billion to develop the Lavi aircraft (cancelled), $200 million to develop the Merkava tank (operative), $130 million to develop the high energy laser anti-missile system (ongoing), and other military projects. In FY 2000 the United States provided Israel an additional $1.2 billion to fund the Wye agreement, and in FY 2002 the United States provided an additional $200 million in anti-terror assistance.

http://fpc.state.gov/documents/organization/47088.pdf

The United States has poured billions of dollars into Israeli military technology, technology that is in direct competition with that of the U.S. So, in other words, the Israelis take our money to create a product to sell, then they sell that product back to us at a profit, directly competing with our own American companies. Sweet !

Also, Israel enjoys large discounts on what are considered “surplus” U.S. arms, and Israeli military firms get preferential treatment in relationships with U.S. military firms. By law, U.S. contractors, are required to subcontract Israeli firms for military components, subcontracts that would otherwise have gone to American firms. Not so sweet for U.S. companies who aren't "in the loop."

And finally, since you so proudly bring up the Merkava tank, which as I've shown is actually American-funded, although Israeli-designed and produced.....

Unfortunately (again) for your argument, its performance is not exactly "just as good" as American-made, as you would allege. The Palestinians managed to blow one up with essentially a pipe bomb. I wonder what would happen to it against a "real" army.

[mawilson 2,133]

Let me refresh your memory:

It's completely propped up by foreign aid (mostly U.S.) The economy is in ruins, in no small part due to the massive expenditures for the illegal settlements and the cost of keeping its army continually deployed in the West Bank.

If Israel was "really" such an economic success, why is the U.S. shelling out more than $5 billion a year to keep them afloat ? They get more than 1/3rd of the entire U.S. foreign aid budget, not to mention the other, less publicized means of skinning the American taxpayer !

So don't try to play games with what I stated.

I just rephrased what you stated, I don't see why you're making such a big deal out of it.

I presume the $5 billion figure includes $2.5 billion of foreign aid and $2.5 billion of "other,

less publicized means", such as military aid?

LOL. That was the beauty of Israel's arrangement, wasn't it ? Calling this type of aid "loan guarantees" seemed to indicate that the money would somehow be paid back, and helped shield the excess amount from public criticism. Only Israel doesn't pay it back. The U.S. has regularly waived the payment of loans due before maturity date.

I've seen these claims before but - again - no proof.

In addition to the foreign assistance, the United States has provided Israel with $625 million to develop and deploy the Arrow anti-missile missile (an ongoing project), $1.3 billion to develop the Lavi aircraft (cancelled), $200 million to develop the Merkava tank (operative), $130 million to develop the high energy laser anti-missile system (ongoing), and other military projects. In FY 2000 the United States provided Israel an additional $1.2 billion to fund the Wye agreement, and in FY 2002 the United States provided an additional $200 million in anti-terror assistance.

Great - at least now we know where the much-cited mysterious $2.5 billion figure comes from.

Still, I'd like to see you quote something recent (2005-2006) from a reputable site, instead of

quotes circa 2001-2003 about Israel asking for money. The Israeli economy has rebounded

substantially from its low point in the early 2000s.