Israel Plunges Gaza Into Darkness

[PalestineMyHeart 1,897]

Still, I'd like to see you quote something recent (2005-2006) from a reputable site, instead of

quotes circa 2001-2003 about Israel asking for money. The Israeli economy has rebounded

substantially from its low point in the early 2000s.

Read more carefully. I cited the "asking" headlines to support my statement that "it never seems to be enough" and Israel keeps asking for more. I cited U.S. government agencies to support my statements of what has already been given. Or are you saying American government reports aren't "reputable" enough for you ??

As for the 2005-2006 figures.... I haven't seen official reports from the various U.S. agencies yet (maybe they're still counting it up.... although I'm sure the "checks" have already cleared the bank.)

Edited July 5, 2006 by wife_of_mahmoud

[mawilson 2,133]

Read more carefully. I cited the "asking" headlines to support my statement that "it never seems to be enough" and Israel keeps asking for more. I cited U.S. government agencies to support my statements of what has already been given. Or are you saying American government reports aren't "reputable" enough for you ??

I would very much like to see a report from a US government agency confirming your

claim that Israel's loans are somehow "forgiven". To "forgive" a $10 billlion loan,

someone would have to cough up the money, and it's not something that can be done

quietly -- I imagine that any such (mis)allocation of funds would have to have been

authorised by Congress.

[PalestineMyHeart 1,897]

I would very much like to see a report from a US government agency confirming your

claim that Israel's loans are somehow "forgiven". To "forgive" a $10 billlion loan,

someone would have to cough up the money, and it's not something that can be done

quietly -- I imagine that any such (mis)allocation of funds would have to have been

authorised by Congress.

Dude, I already gave you the link for the official U.S. government agency report. This time, try reading it.

The Congressional Review Service

http://fpc.state.gov/documents/organization/47088.pdf

Page 9, "Loans With Repayment Waived":

Since 1974, some or all of U.S. military aid to Israel has been in the form of loans for which payment is waived. Technically, the assistance is called loans, but as a practical matter, the military aid is grant. From FY1974 through FY2003, Israel has received more than $45 billion in waived loans.

So it's not a mere "$10 billion" waived, it's at least $45 billion. And of course it was authorized by Congress. And of course someone had to cough up the money -- unfortunately, once again, it was the U.S. taxpayer.

[Ban Hammer 13,352]

I would very much like to see a report from a US government agency confirming your

claim that Israel's loans are somehow "forgiven". To "forgive" a $10 billlion loan,

someone would have to cough up the money, and it's not something that can be done

quietly -- I imagine that any such (mis)allocation of funds would have to have been

authorised by Congress.

Dude, I already gave you the link for the official U.S. government agency report. This time, try reading it.

The Congressional Review Service

http://fpc.state.gov/documents/organization/47088.pdf

Page 9, "Loans With Repayment Waived":

Since 1974, some or all of U.S. military aid to Israel has been in the form of loans for which payment is waived. Technically, the assistance is called loans, but as a practical matter, the military aid is grant. From FY1974 through FY2003, Israel has received more than $45 billion in waived loans.

So it's not a mere "$10 billion" waived, it's at least $45 billion. And of course it was authorized by Congress. And of course someone had to cough up the money -- unfortunately, once again, it was the U.S. taxpayer.

you just shot your own argument down about it being more than 5 billion a year....

from 1974-2003 = 29 years. 45 billion divided by 29 = 1.55 billion a year.

[PalestineMyHeart 1,897]

I would very much like to see a report from a US government agency confirming your

claim that Israel's loans are somehow "forgiven". To "forgive" a $10 billlion loan,

someone would have to cough up the money, and it's not something that can be done

quietly -- I imagine that any such (mis)allocation of funds would have to have been

authorised by Congress.

Dude, I already gave you the link for the official U.S. government agency report. This time, try reading it.

The Congressional Review Service

http://fpc.state.gov/documents/organization/47088.pdf

Page 9, "Loans With Repayment Waived":

Since 1974, some or all of U.S. military aid to Israel has been in the form of loans for which payment is waived. Technically, the assistance is called loans, but as a practical matter, the military aid is grant. From FY1974 through FY2003, Israel has received more than $45 billion in waived loans.

So it's not a mere "$10 billion" waived, it's at least $45 billion. And of course it was authorized by Congress. And of course someone had to cough up the money -- unfortunately, once again, it was the U.S. taxpayer.

you just shot your own argument down about it being more than 5 billion a year....

from 1974-2003 = 29 years. 45 billion divided by 29 = 1.55 billion a year.

Reading is fundamental.

The $45 billion we are discussing now is merely the amount of "waived loans." This amount is entirely separate from the even more massive amounts of foreign aid, military aid, and other assistance given to Israel, which we already discussed.

Look before you leap.

[Ban Hammer 13,352]

I would very much like to see a report from a US government agency confirming your

claim that Israel's loans are somehow "forgiven". To "forgive" a $10 billlion loan,

someone would have to cough up the money, and it's not something that can be done

quietly -- I imagine that any such (mis)allocation of funds would have to have been

authorised by Congress.

Dude, I already gave you the link for the official U.S. government agency report. This time, try reading it.

The Congressional Review Service

http://fpc.state.gov/documents/organization/47088.pdf

Page 9, "Loans With Repayment Waived":

Since 1974, some or all of U.S. military aid to Israel has been in the form of loans for which payment is waived. Technically, the assistance is called loans, but as a practical matter, the military aid is grant. From FY1974 through FY2003, Israel has received more than $45 billion in waived loans.

So it's not a mere "$10 billion" waived, it's at least $45 billion. And of course it was authorized by Congress. And of course someone had to cough up the money -- unfortunately, once again, it was the U.S. taxpayer.

you just shot your own argument down about it being more than 5 billion a year....

from 1974-2003 = 29 years. 45 billion divided by 29 = 1.55 billion a year.

Reading is fundamental.

The $45 billion we are discussing now is merely the amount of "waived loans." This amount is entirely separate from the even more massive amounts of foreign aid, military aid, and other assistance given to Israel, which we already discussed.

Look before you leap.

perhaps you should follow your own advice:

page 4: from 1971 to the present, us aid to israel has averaged over 2 billion per year....

[Veiled Princess 1]

perhaps you should follow your own advice:

page 4: from 1971 to the present, us aid to israel has averaged over 2 billion per year....

Still seems like a lot considering many people here are jobless, homeless and starving. That would be a rather nice little tax break for some of us.

[PalestineMyHeart 1,897]

I would very much like to see a report from a US government agency confirming your

claim that Israel's loans are somehow "forgiven". To "forgive" a $10 billlion loan,

someone would have to cough up the money, and it's not something that can be done

quietly -- I imagine that any such (mis)allocation of funds would have to have been

authorised by Congress.

Dude, I already gave you the link for the official U.S. government agency report. This time, try reading it.

The Congressional Review Service

http://fpc.state.gov/documents/organization/47088.pdf

Page 9, "Loans With Repayment Waived":

Since 1974, some or all of U.S. military aid to Israel has been in the form of loans for which payment is waived. Technically, the assistance is called loans, but as a practical matter, the military aid is grant. From FY1974 through FY2003, Israel has received more than $45 billion in waived loans.

So it's not a mere "$10 billion" waived, it's at least $45 billion. And of course it was authorized by Congress. And of course someone had to cough up the money -- unfortunately, once again, it was the U.S. taxpayer.

you just shot your own argument down about it being more than 5 billion a year....

from 1974-2003 = 29 years. 45 billion divided by 29 = 1.55 billion a year.

Reading is fundamental.

The $45 billion we are discussing now is merely the amount of "waived loans." This amount is entirely separate from the even more massive amounts of foreign aid, military aid, and other assistance given to Israel, which we already discussed.

Look before you leap.

perhaps you should follow your own advice:

page 4: from 1971 to the present, us aid to israel has averaged over 2 billion per year....

Your apparent reading comprehension problems are becoming tedious.

Page 1, first paragraph:

Since 1985, the United States has provided $3 billion in grants annually to Israel.

You do not seem to grasp the simplest of mathematical concepts here. $3 billion in "grants," added to the $2 billion in "average foreign aid" you refer to on page 4, adds up to $5 billion.

And this total does not even include the waived loans, or the "sweetheart deals," or the myriad of other methods of sliding cash to Israel (some of which we've already discussed) that boost the total even more.

But please, continue to post your foolish arguments.

[mawilson 2,133]

Since 1974, some or all of U.S. military aid to Israel has been in the form of loans for which payment is waived. Technically, the assistance is called loans, but as a practical matter, the military aid is grant. From FY1974 through FY2003, Israel has received more than $45 billion in waived loans.

Military aid - yes - but we have already established that. You're using the same

numbers over and over again trying to inflate them to an astronomical degree.

For example, when you claimed that the US paid for the development of Israeli

weaponry, you forgot to mention that it was the same military aid money that paid for it.

So - let's summarise -

Foreign aid: ~ $2.5 billion / year

Military aid (in the form of waived loans): ~ $2.5 billion / year (although as

charlesandnessa pointed out, the actual number is closer to $1.5 billion / year)

These numbers add up to $4-5 billion per year, which is still minuscule compared

to Israel's GDP.

What else is there?

Don't even try to say "loan guarantees" - we already counted them under "military aid",

unless you can provide proof that Israel's loans were waived for something

other than military aid!

[Ban Hammer 13,352]

Your apparent reading comprehension problems are becoming tedious.

Page 1, first paragraph:

ah yes, my reading comprehension. it's on page 3, dearie.

Since 1985, the United States has provided $3 billion in grants annually to Israel.

You do not seem to grasp the simplest of mathematical concepts here. $3 billion in "grants," added to the $2 billion in "average foreign aid" you refer to on page 4, adds up to $5 billion.

And this total does not even include the waived loans, or the "sweetheart deals," or the myriad of other methods of sliding cash to Israel (some of which we've already discussed) that boost the total even more.

But please, continue to post your foolish arguments.

me continue my foolish arguments? roflmao. good thing you are not an accountant, you'd be in jail!

bottom of page 3, which you refer to as page 1

for fy2005, the us provided $360 mill in economic, 2.22 bill in military, and 50 mill in migration resettlement assistance. grand total 3.08 billion.

bottom of page 14

...requested 2.28 billion im military, 240 in economic, 40 mill in refugee grants. grand total 2.92 bill

again, your own documentation shows an average of 3 bill a year!

[PalestineMyHeart 1,897]

me continue my foolish arguments? roflmao. good thing you are not an accountant, you'd be in jail!

bottom of page 3, which you refer to as page 1

for fy2005, the us provided $360 mill in economic, 2.22 bill in military, and 50 mill in migration resettlement assistance. grand total 3.08 billion.

bottom of page 14

...requested 2.28 billion im military, 240 in economic, 40 mill in refugee grants. grand total 2.92 bill

again, your own documentation shows an average of 3 bill a year!

OK Charles I didn't count in the title and contents pages, and referred to the actual first paragraph of the report as page 1. My bad. Here's a brownie point for you.

Now, go back and read the thread again. The amounts of "military aid" and "grants" cited in this report are not the total sum of U.S. aid given to Israel. Even mawilson can admit the sum is more like $5 billion annually in recent years. (Don't expect to get an accounting down to the penny from your Congressional representatives.)

And when coming up with your "averages" of U.S. aid given over half a century, keep in mind how inflation has affected the value of a dollar. I guess if you really want to push that line of argument, you should first find one of those accountants you mentioned to adjust all past aid into today's dollars, just to keep things in context.

Since 1974, some or all of U.S. military aid to Israel has been in the form of loans for which payment is waived. Technically, the assistance is called loans, but as a practical matter, the military aid is grant. From FY1974 through FY2003, Israel has received more than $45 billion in waived loans.

Military aid - yes - but we have already established that. You're using the same

numbers over and over again trying to inflate them to an astronomical degree.

For example, when you claimed that the US paid for the development of Israeli

weaponry, you forgot to mention that it was the same military aid money that paid for it.

So - let's summarise -

Foreign aid: ~ $2.5 billion / year

Military aid (in the form of waived loans): ~ $2.5 billion / year (although as

charlesandnessa pointed out, the actual number is closer to $1.5 billion / year)

These numbers add up to $4-5 billion per year, which is still minuscule compared

to Israel's GDP.

What else is there?

Don't even try to say "loan guarantees" - we already counted them under "military aid",

unless you can provide proof that Israel's loans were waived for something

other than military aid!

How am I inflating anything ? 2 + 3 = 5.

And the actual amount IS astronomical -- by 1997 (that's nearly 10 years ago,) it already added up to about $14,630 for each Israeli. And even as generous as that was, you have to consider that what Israelis actually get in U.S. aid is considerably less than what it costs U.S. taxpayers to provide it. As long as the U.S. runs an annual budget deficit, every dollar of aid the U.S. government gives Israel has to be raised through U.S. government borrowing. So the cost to Americans to provide this support was about $23,240 per Israeli.

Nice "miniscule" gift. Your gratitude is overwhelming. I wonder how most Americans would have chosen to spend their own money.

Anyway.... at least you finally (grudgingly) admit to the $5 billion a year. Thank you ! Of course you try to dismiss it as "miniscule," and want to avoid discussing the indirect aid. But I wonder what that "miniscule" $5 billion a year could have bought here at home, for hard-working Americans who forked over the cash.

Your method of debate is interesting, to say the least -- first you deny that my statements could possibly true (such as the waived loans business,) and challenge me to provide a "reputable" link. Then, when you are given one, you immediately abandon that tack and switch to another argument. "Hey, don't look there, look over here !" It's all smoke and mirrors.

OK back to your remarks. The report certainly did not say that "all" military aid to Israel takes the form of waived loans, yet you are trying to float that canoe. You are dissembling again. And you (understandably) neglect to address things like the extra $9 billion buried in last year's budget. It's not me who's trying to add the same amounts twice, rather it's you who's trying to claim that obviously separate categories are actually the same thing.

It's interesting how you totally declined to argue with the facts of the preferential deals given to Israel in producing/buying/selling military equipment. Or with the facts of Israel earning interest on the money we loan it. Or with the fact that Israel engages in a "consistent pattern of gross violations of internationally recognized human rights," so that giving it any U.S. military aid at all is completely illegal under our own laws.

Anyone who knows ANYthing about the reality of U.S. aid to Israel knows that Israel is the single biggest recipient of U.S. aid in history. It's a staggering figure -- to put it in perspective, in the period of 1948-the present, the amount given to Israel alone equals the entire amount of U.S. foreign aid given to Latin America, sub-Saharan Africa, and the Caribbean combined.

And all this to a country that claims to be the 16th richest economy in the world, who has been repeatedly caught spying on its benefactor, and who continues to defy U.S. foreign policy in its illegal occupation and illegal settlement program.

So tell me -- what is the exact return that America is getting for its investment ?

Apparently some folks don't want to face the truth about American aid to Israel. Either that or they are deliberately trying to deflect attention from it. Is it because they don't want the American taxpayer to awake from his media-induced coma about the situation ? Of course that taxpayer might get mad, even mad enough to start voting Israel's collaborators out of Congress, and shutting down the cash cow. And that, most certainly, would force Israel to stop acting like a schoolyard bully protected by his powerful, larger, older friend. Instead of dictating its unilateral demands and throwing its weight around (thanks to the best military U.S. money can buy) Israel might have to try diplomacy instead and start getting along with its neighbors.

What a scary thought !

[Ban Hammer 13,352]

OK Charles I didn't count in the title and contents pages, and referred to the actual first paragraph of the report as page 1. My bad. Here's a brownie point for you.

nice to know you can't be graceful when acknowledging someone is right

Now, go back and read the thread again. The amounts of "military aid" and "grants" cited in this report are not the total sum of U.S. aid given to Israel. Even mawilson can admit the sum is more like $5 billion annually in recent years. (Don't expect to get an accounting down to the penny from your Congressional representatives.)

nor will we get accounting from you. your own sources you discount. interesting.

And when coming up with your "averages" of U.S. aid given over half a century, keep in mind how inflation has affected the value of a dollar. I guess if you really want to push that line of argument, you should first find one of those accountants you mentioned to adjust all past aid into today's dollars, just to keep things in context.

talk about shifting mirrors and smoke. now we have to take into account inflation!

blah blah blah extra stuff deleted

Anyway.... at least you finally (grudgingly) admit to the $5 billion a year. Thank you ! Of course you try to dismiss it as "miniscule," and want to avoid discussing the indirect aid. But I wonder what that "miniscule" $5 billion a year could have bought here at home, for hard-working Americans who forked over the cash.

is this any worse than what we spend on the un? at least with the israelis we get intelligence, field testing of equipment/designs and capabilities, and so on.

It's interesting how you totally declined to argue with the facts of the preferential deals given to Israel in producing/buying/selling military equipment. Or with the facts of Israel earning interest on the money we loan it. Or with the fact that Israel engages in a "consistent pattern of gross violations of internationally recognized human rights," so that giving it any U.S. military aid at all is completely illegal under our own laws.

so you're saying we should cut off aid to them and leave them at the mercy of suicide bombers. cool! i'm seeing a pattern to your arguements now.

Anyone who knows ANYthing about the reality of U.S. aid to Israel knows that Israel is the single biggest recipient of U.S. aid in history. It's a staggering figure -- to put it in perspective, in the period of 1948-the present, the amount given to Israel alone equals the entire amount of U.S. foreign aid given to Latin America, sub-Saharan Africa, and the Caribbean combined.

i seriously doubt the reason you are raising this is so those listed above can get more. no, you just want any aid to israel cut off.

And all this to a country that claims to be the 16th richest economy in the world, who has been repeatedly caught spying on its benefactor, and who continues to defy U.S. foreign policy in its illegal occupation and illegal settlement program.

the source you cited earlier includes that the monetary aid from the usa comes with strings. but hey, it's also illegal to get on a bus and blow everyone on it to pieces too, but i don't hear any outrage from you about that.

So tell me -- what is the exact return that America is getting for its investment ?

Apparently some folks don't want to face the truth about American aid to Israel. Either that or they are deliberately trying to deflect attention from it. Is it because they don't want the American taxpayer to awake from his media-induced coma about the situation ? Of course that taxpayer might get mad, even mad enough to start voting Israel's collaborators out of Congress, and shutting down the cash cow. And that, most certainly, would force Israel to stop acting like a schoolyard bully protected by his powerful, larger, older friend. Instead of dictating its unilateral demands and throwing its weight around (thanks to the best military U.S. money can buy) Israel might have to try diplomacy instead and start getting along with its neighbors.

What a scary thought !

apparently this investment is designed to annoy you. yes, shut off israel's money. that's what you are really after. thus throwing them to the wolves. it's obvious what your intent is now.

[mawilson 2,133]

Anyway.... at least you finally (grudgingly) admit to the $5 billion a year. Thank you ! Of course you try to dismiss it as "miniscule," and want to avoid discussing the indirect aid. But I wonder what that "miniscule" $5 billion a year could have bought here at home, for hard-working Americans who forked over the cash.

I never really argued with the $5 billion figure, I was just wondering how you arrived at that number.

Your method of debate is interesting, to say the least -- first you deny that my statements could possibly true (such as the waived loans business,) and challenge me to provide a "reputable" link. Then, when you are given one, you immediately abandon that tack and switch to another argument. "Hey, don't look there, look over here !" It's all smoke and mirrors.

It's really not. I wasn't aware that most of US military aid to Israel had been in the form

of waived loans, but you made it sound as if the loans were completely separate from the

military aid:

The $45 billion we are discussing now is merely the amount of "waived loans." This amount is entirely separate from the even more massive amounts of foreign aid, military aid, and other assistance given to Israel, which we already discussed.

It's really not separate, now is it? According to the very same government report you quoted:

Since 1974, some or all of U.S. military aid to Israel has been in the form of loans for which payment is waived. Technically, the assistance is called loans, but as a practical matter, the military aid is grant. From FY1974 through FY2003, Israel has received more than $45 billion in waived loans.

Yet, you're trying to make the same argument again:

OK back to your remarks. The report certainly did not say that "all" military aid to Israel takes the form of waived loans.

Really now? Let's read the same paragraph again, shall we? After all, reading is fundamental:

Since 1974, some or all of U.S. military aid to Israel has been in the form of loans for which payment is waived. Technically, the assistance is called loans, but as a practical matter, the military aid is grant. From FY1974 through FY2003, Israel has received more than $45 billion in waived loans.

Of course, "some or all" is not the same as "all", but it's close enough. More importantly, there's

nothing in the report to suggest that the waived loans were used as payment for anything

other than military aid.

It's interesting how you totally declined to argue with the facts of the preferential deals given to Israel in producing/buying/selling military equipment. Or with the facts of Israel earning interest on the money we loan it. Or with the fact that Israel engages in a "consistent pattern of gross violations of internationally recognized human rights," so that giving it any U.S. military aid at all is completely illegal under our own laws.

Facts are facts, I don't dispute things that I know to be true.

The argument started because you had initially claimed that Israel's economy was "in ruins",

even though you later affirmed that Israel is

... a country that claims to be the 16th richest economy in the world

So which one is it -- the 16th richest economy in the world, or an economy in ruins?

Nice "miniscule" gift. Your gratitude is overwhelming.

I have nothing to be grateful for, I never got the $23,240 adjusted for inflation.

Israelis are grateful, I'm sure.

...shutting down the cash cow. And that, most certainly, would force Israel to stop acting like a schoolyard bully protected by his powerful, larger, older friend. Instead of dictating its unilateral demands and throwing its weight around (thanks to the best military U.S. money can buy) Israel might have to try diplomacy instead and start getting along with its neighbors.

Maybe, but don't count on it. I'm sure that even without the extra help from the US, Israel

(or do you prefer the term "Zionist Enemy"?) will find enough resources to subjugate the

poor huddled masses of the Middle East. [/sarcasm]

[MandR 0]

Approximate cost of U.S. war on terror over 250 billion.....

Assisting Israel in their war on terror.... Priceless

[Emo 0]

Approximate cost of U.S. war on terror over 250 billion.....

Assisting Israel in their war on terror.... Priceless

Arabs cannot make peace with Israel. Any such Arab-Israeli agreement would exist only on paper. In Islam, jihad is a perpetual obligation. The military jihad is interrupted only temporarily by truces, and a truce with Arabs is what Israel has now. Arabs see themselves morally bound only by lawful agreements—and a peace agreement with an infidel state in Dar al-Islam is by definition illegal and allowed only to deceive infidels. That Jews are not infidels in Islam, but enjoy special status, will pose no difficulty for radical imams; Israel is not a theocracy, but a secular state, thus infidel promoting the Great Satan’s values. Few Muslims concede that jihad is an outdated, unrealizable regulation like those common in mature religions or reinterpret it as peaceful competition with the West. Fundamentalist Islamic terrorists who oppose settlement with Israel see jihad as war obligation and would honor no indemnity of Israel. Arabs have always violated cease-fires with Israel; why imagine they would observe peace treaties? Israel, on the contrary, would hesitate to violate peace agreement with Arabs and would constrain retaliation for terrorism

http://www.samsonblinded.org/index.html