Failing relationships

[Brad and Vika 129]

I just reside in US for two years. I did seen some men who are courteous. Not many though but when I need somebody they do pop out. Or he just want to see my round azz? My spouse is courteous too. He does everything for me except installing my tampons.

i guess you still need to train him some more.

Yeah - but that one was WAY too much information.

[Ban Hammer 13,113]

I just reside in US for two years. I did seen some men who are courteous. Not many though but when I need somebody they do pop out. Or he just want to see my round azz? My spouse is courteous too. He does everything for me except installing my tampons.

i guess you still need to train him some more.

Yeah - but that one was WAY too much information.

but that's sj.

[slim 1,514]

I don't mean for it to sound so combative, but this isn't the first (or last) time we've heard the "feminists have ruined everything" myth, but the facts just don't bear it out. For example, according to the "feminists have ruined everything" myth, men are afraid to hold the door open for a woman for fear of being accused of sexism. And yet I see men holding doors open for women *ALL* the time. I see women holding doors open for men, and all other combinations. As I said in my post, I'm not afraid to hold a door open for a woman, and I personally don't know a single person who's afraid to hold a door open. There is also a myth that men are afraid to compliment a woman, especially in the workplace. And yet I hear it in my own workplace all the time, and I've often complimented my own female co-workers on their attire. Yes, of course it's inappropriate to say "hey those pants make your аss look awesome!" but there's nothing wrong with saying "I really like that shirt." The argument that feminism has ended "chivarly" (if it ever existed) is simply a myth, and we as intelligent men need to stop using it as a convenient excuse to be lazy. And women who buy into it need to stop too, because it does nothing but create more lazy men.

We're not talking about the difference between men/women holding doors open or being able to say, "I like that shirt." Those are expressions of common courtesy and they are widely accepted here in the U.S.

What we're talking about is when the woman stops at the door and waits for it to be opened for her because there is a man around. (Exactly what eekee was saying when she bought the heavy printer and stood there waiting for her male friend to carry it. It's an expectation that a male will carry it and a female will just wait for him to do so.) For foreign women from several parts of the world, and especially FSU, it's almost like a door handle is 400 degrees and will burn her hand if she touches it when there's a man around. There's an established expectation that it's "his job" to open the door.

In America, not so much. In America there will be a race to see who can open the door first. Exceptions to the rule are when they're out on a date or if she likes him. But, if he's a creepy old overweight and scraggly looking dude, she HAS TO open the door herself or else she's giving him the wrong idea. We've come to the point of women behaving in a way as to dictate their level of response to male affection - it's only harrassment if it's unwanted. If she likes it, then it's game on! So, when you're telling your lady coworker you like her shirt, if you've been working together for a long time it'll be no big deal and she knows you mean, "I like your shirt." If she's sexually attracted to you and welcomes your comments it'll be "I know he likes my shirt because he fantasizes about my perfect breasts all day long and I could have him any time I want." But, if she isn't attracted to you or feels like you're only viewing her as a sex object, it's "He's making me feel uncomfortable. I'm going to the boss and I'm going to report him." And as Brad said, that happens all too often in the American workplace.

You can also see it when you go out somewhere. If a girl likes a guy, she'll wait for him to open the door for her. If she doesn't, she shows him she'll get the door herself. She has to dictate her position by her actions. FSU women, not so much. That's the distinction between the two cultures. For FSU women it's an expectation that a man, any man, regardless of how much she likes him or he likes her or how fat and nasty he is, will open the door because it is man's job to open door for woman. For U.S. women, it's not an expectation, there's a whole decision process involved.

[Brad and Vika 129]

I don't mean for it to sound so combative, but this isn't the first (or last) time we've heard the "feminists have ruined everything" myth, but the facts just don't bear it out. For example, according to the "feminists have ruined everything" myth, men are afraid to hold the door open for a woman for fear of being accused of sexism. And yet I see men holding doors open for women *ALL* the time. I see women holding doors open for men, and all other combinations. As I said in my post, I'm not afraid to hold a door open for a woman, and I personally don't know a single person who's afraid to hold a door open. There is also a myth that men are afraid to compliment a woman, especially in the workplace. And yet I hear it in my own workplace all the time, and I've often complimented my own female co-workers on their attire. Yes, of course it's inappropriate to say "hey those pants make your аss look awesome!" but there's nothing wrong with saying "I really like that shirt." The argument that feminism has ended "chivarly" (if it ever existed) is simply a myth, and we as intelligent men need to stop using it as a convenient excuse to be lazy. And women who buy into it need to stop too, because it does nothing but create more lazy men.

We're not talking about the difference between men/women holding doors open or being able to say, "I like that shirt." Those are expressions of common courtesy and they are widely accepted here in the U.S.

What we're talking about is when the woman stops at the door and waits for it to be opened for her because there is a man around. (Exactly what eekee was saying when she bought the heavy printer and stood there waiting for her male friend to carry it. It's an expectation that a male will carry it and a female will just wait for him to do so.) For foreign women from several parts of the world, and especially FSU, it's almost like a door handle is 400 degrees and will burn her hand if she touches it when there's a man around. There's an established expectation that it's "his job" to open the door.

In America, not so much. In America there will be a race to see who can open the door first. Exceptions to the rule are when they're out on a date or if she likes him. But, if he's a creepy old overweight and scraggly looking dude, she HAS TO open the door herself or else she's giving him the wrong idea. We've come to the point of women behaving in a way as to dictate their level of response to male affection - it's only harrassment if it's unwanted. If she likes it, then it's game on! So, when you're telling your lady coworker you like her shirt, if you've been working together for a long time it'll be no big deal and she knows you mean, "I like your shirt." If she's sexually attracted to you and welcomes your comments it'll be "I know he likes my shirt because he fantasizes about my perfect breasts all day long and I could have him any time I want." But, if she isn't attracted to you or feels like you're only viewing her as a sex object, it's "He's making me feel uncomfortable. I'm going to the boss and I'm going to report him." And as Brad said, that happens all too often in the American workplace.

You can also see it when you go out somewhere. If a girl likes a guy, she'll wait for him to open the door for her. If she doesn't, she shows him she'll get the door herself. She has to dictate her position by her actions. FSU women, not so much. That's the distinction between the two cultures. For FSU women it's an expectation that a man, any man, regardless of how much she likes him or he likes her or how fat and nasty he is, will open the door because it is man's job to open door for woman. For U.S. women, it's not an expectation, there's a whole decision process involved.

Furthermore, a woman at work can always file away an action or comment for later use. If she gets upset with the man weeks later it can be brought up and used against him even by a third party. For anybody who thinks I am exagerating, let me say that the law and most company policies are very clear on this. Once some one goes to the boss with a "he or she is making me uncomfortable" story - the boss MUST take action. Even if the story or teller lacks credibility, if there is no action, then the manager is also guilty. When I managed people I even saw women doing this to each other (she is marrried boss, and watching her kiss her much younger office-boyfriend is making me sick. I am a very religious person - and that stuff just offends me - make it stop). The difference is that if the perp is male, you are forever painted with that brush once the first finger is pointed.

Men can do it too, but I have never seen it done. Guys, can you imagine telling your manager that one of your female colleagues is chatting you up and making you uncomfortable - so much so that you need intervention by the boss to make it stop?

To Slim's point about only unwanted attention here being harrassment, that is exactly the danger, and reason for my caution. Another comment I hear all the time (and see myself in Ukraine or Romania, but not Belarus), is about eye contact. My sisters tell me that in America, women don't even make eye contact with a guy if they can help it unless they like him. It is an invitation to smile, then converse, and then he will probably hit on the poor girl. Ridiculous but true. In Ukraine, most every woman on the street will make eye contact, smile (even at an old fat guy), and it means not a thing.

[Chuckles 0]

I think this discussion is right on topic. When you are talking about relationships with Americans with Russians, this cultural difference makes a difference.

I know I do all those things for my wife. I assumed it showed I loved her. To an American woman, it might. To a Russian woman, you better do all those things, and it really proves nothing. Try not doing those things and see what happens...

You can agree or disagree with it if you want. You can blame it on whatever you want. It still exists.

This goes both ways I am sure. American woman with Russian men probably have some reverse issues where they think a guy is showing affection, but he is just doing his 'cultural duty' in his mind.

Going back to the original poster, this is probably one of the things going on in their marriage. He is an American man. He grew up conditioned to let the woman be equal, and open her own damn doors (a simplification I know), and after 2 years, he is reverting back. It doesn't mean he doesn't love you, he spent many many years doing that, as it is the accepted way in America. Of course there are probably other things, but this might be one of them.

[Brad and Vika 129]

I think this discussion is right on topic. When you are talking about relationships with Americans with Russians, this cultural difference makes a difference.

I know I do all those things for my wife. I assumed it showed I loved her. To an American woman, it might. To a Russian woman, you better do all those things, and it really proves nothing. Try not doing those things and see what happens...

You can agree or disagree with it if you want. You can blame it on whatever you want. It still exists.

This goes both ways I am sure. American woman with Russian men probably have some reverse issues where they think a guy is showing affection, but he is just doing his 'cultural duty' in his mind.

I agree with all of this, and say again that I really like the way the gender roles play out in our relationship (mostly). Also, I really like that flowers, etc. get me BIG points as opposed to placed under suspicion of some wrongdoing. Another example is the home atmosphere. She feels that she is naturally in charge of making the home "cozy", while I am in charge of paying for that. Small price so far for the great return.

Vika does seem to put a huge stock in anything she reads on the internet or a (Russian or Ukrainian) magazine though. I am happy that she doesn't follow Oprah and Dr. Phil. We are eating a fair amount of organic food now, and she informed me that there was so much harmful stuff in the shampoo, toothpaste, makeup (who knew? ) now that we must switch to organic. About once a week she discovers some new threat that will surely kill us both, or goes into a panic assuming that triple polio and cancer are one more "gamburger" away. I try to take it all with a grain of salt, because if nutrasweet really kills you, I am a goner already.

Edited May 18, 2009 by Brad and Vika

[mendeleev 68]

Sorry, but this isn't right at all.

Not a single man I know is afraid to hold a door open for a woman. I don't know where that comes from, but it's a myth. I've never gotten a dirty look for holding a door open for a woman, and I *always* hold the door open for a woman (or man) when the situation presets itself. Feminism is not the problem, and it's sad to see a woman buying into that kind of Rush Limbaugh BS. It's a lot more complicated than that, and while yes there are some very radical feminists who would probably give me a piece of their mind for holding a door open for them, they are in the fringe minority of feminism and do not represent mainstream cultural trends at all. Even Gloria Steinem has said in interviews that she doesn't mind doors being held open for her or other common courtesies. That's not what feminism is about at all. What feminism has given this country is equal pay for equal work (granted, there's still a lot of work to do on that front, but it's much better than even a couple decades ago), equal opportunities for women to hold traditionally male jobs, the right to not have their asses smacked in the workplace and then being told that it's just guys being guys, the right to vote, the right to have control of their own bodies, and the list goes on.

The reason why "chivalry is dead" in the US is simply because society as a whole has relaxed, and quite frankly men (and women) have gotten lazier, and parents are worse than ever about teaching core values to our children. That's why we wear casual clothes instead of suits and ties to the workplace these days, or why we buy and eat a large percentage of our meals from a drive thru window. Men don't hold doors open or help a lady out with a big package anymore because Americans are fuc*ing lazy and can't be bothered. It has nothing at all to do with feminism. It has everything to do with a culture of laziness and general apathy.

And before Russian men are held up as the ideal in chivalry too much, I'll remind you that women make less money in Russia for doing the same job as a man by a pretty wide gap. Russian women, while expected to bring in 1/2 the income (or at least work a full time job), are also expected to maintain the household, cook, clean, do the shopping, and raise the children. The leading cause of death for married Russian women is at the hands of their husband, and the leading cause of death for all men in Russia is alcoholism, followed closely by drug-related causes. Both countries have their social problems, and neither is close to perfect.

Thanks, Mox, for replying to some of the silly comments that this sort of topic usually elicits.

My wife is a feminist, as she defines the term, and won't put up with anyone correcting her that her definition is incorrect. She hasn't reentered the job market right away, for good reasons, but that doesn't mean that she's happy being a kept woman. She worked, and worked very well, her whole life in Russia.

She also is feminine in ways that I find unusual and refreshing. She dresses with a fine sense of style and always looks great, especially to me. Under her influence, I'm dressing less like a typical American man and more a little more like a european ... or russian ... man. It isn't a bad thing.

Too many American men, in my judgment, misunderstand the desire of many russian women to dress attractively. A former boss of mine, a Russian, put that part of the situation aptly. Russian women dress like women, Russian men like men, and Americans like neither.

Now I'll read on because its really OP's situation that I'm interested in.

Edited May 18, 2009 by novotul

[Nasturtium 500]

Hey Guys,

We always write when things are awesome,but never really when they suck...

Recently I have heard many sad stories from my girlfriends that moved here same way( through K1-K3)...

And I should say my own relationship is not at the top of the mountain nowadays"in spite my maid outfits,SLim"...

What is going with American Men?Is it the crisis that makes you guys so insecure or whats up?

Or after 2 years interest is just gone for no reason?

I am not saying I am extra perfect,but I have been there for my husband 1000%,supporting through everything,loving and doing everything possible...However I think now that could be the reason...Maybe when you give it all to Men don't want it anymore?

It could be, like others said, stress... also the newness is wearing off. There is a certain ammount of us being thrust into almost an arranged marriage style of relationship... because of distances, etc. Often times most people on these forums met their SO on travels, through work in a foreign country (like we did), or online... and they meet in person and then basically either get married in that place and then often go home only to make no or only sporadic visits (like we did about every 6 months, also I continued to work there in the summers for 2 month stretches), or they do K-1 and the person comes and then if they decide to marry they have only been together, in person, for a duration of about 3 months at most. Obviously this doesn't cover the gamut of situations, but this does cover many of us. So, you figure in a way, this is pretty similar to how you kind of know of this guy since you were kids and he lives across town and then your parents give you about 90 days to see if you'd agree to get married. You kind of jump in, while usually we take a lot longer to figure out how we feel-- in person, not just over the phone and online and through some sporadic visits. I think it can create a major magical-moment let-down when the relationship becomes very real and very ordinary and the excitement wears off. Couple that with stress and it's a real mood-killer.

I think Americans live pretty stressful lives. We may not see ourselves that way much, but when you contrast us with other places, you notice that they seem to be having a bit more fun than we are in general. Often times we can call this irresponsibility, but it is what it is-- other people dealing with life as it comes.

You can try talking to him, and depending on what type of person he is you may or may not get anywhere with that-- but just keep at it. I wouldn't "nag" in the sense of kind of complaining or whining about it, but showing genuine concern can really help-- even if you have to do it more than once. If he's like me, he'll try to bury everything and only give you partial stories (because I am the stereotypical emotional "man" lol, although I am obviously not a man) just to try to get rid of the talk which he will hate, but if you press us enough and are non-threatening to us, then we will eventually let you know what is going on. For some, if they can't fix a problem they will either bury it, hide it, or try to pretend it doesn't exist as long as it's not something physical. He may be like this-- and you just have to show you are a good confidant and let him feel free to confide and then if he says he never wants to discuss it again... don't bring it up again. You will have helped already and he may bring things up himself later. I would avoid telling him you want to discuss his "feelings" as it can create a negative reaction. I know I certainly don't ever want to discuss my "feelings" with anyone.

Hope things continue to work out

Re: the American feminism, etc discussion... OK, so I'm a girl. I am, by definition, a feminist since I believe in the rights of women to either stay home, be subservient if they want, have 20 kids, have no kids, work as CEOs, or whatever they are qualified for and want to do.

Slim-- I saw you (or thought this was where you were going, so correct me) sort of inadvertantly advocating we have sexual dimorphism with an example, which isn't true. We are not sexually dimporphic at all. There is a 30% variation overall in our species, and that doesn't qualify as dimorphic. There are many women who cannot and will never be able to hack it as firefighters, but there are many, many men who could not do that either. There are plenty of 6'+ tall women, and many who could totally beat the ####### out of many men. There are many 5' tall men. That's why if you do a cemetary population study and don't have good pelvic evidences and are using, say, a right humerus to do MNI and sexing, you can only run it against that population within the cemetary-- or else you'll get screwed up results. Running a early medieval Norwegan cemetary (to throw out good stereotypes) against a pre-Columbian cemetary is going to have nearly everyone in one listed as male and nearly everyone in the other listed as female, when in fact they are should be the regular 48-52 ratio as long as it's not sexed burials or some kind of cultural catch (like female infanticide being popular).

That aside, I think advocating the unqualified promotion of individuals for whatever reason is very, very wrong. I don't care how few women are in firefighting-- if they are not being turned away simply because they are female but because they just aren't qualified. I would HOPE that they would only accept qualified individuals of EITHER sex. Same with any profession. Undeserved promotion and hiring is a huge sticking point for me.

Re: The chivalry conversation-- Chivalry was a fictional invention developed around the time of Marie de France if I remember correctly, and popularized with the lays of Arthur and Chretien de Troys. It isn't dead simply because it never existed. Traditional American gender roles are something totally different and do not in any way involve chivalry.

I open doors for whomever is behind me if I am not in some kind of crazy hurry. I never, even if in a hurry, will let a door intentionally slam in someone's face. I have done it by accident and apologized when i realized what I did. I don't care if a man opens a door for me, but it can throw me off sometimes because it's random as to if it happens or not and I never expect it. I don't yell lol. I say thank you and move on (or hold the door for him, whatever I have time for and percieve to be appropriate). I don't like to be touched or have people touch my things, but I *know* I am odd in this. If a man tried to hold my coat for me, I would say thank you and let him do it. If we were known enough to eachother, he would probably realize I don't like being touched and also don't touch men for religious reasons... so... he likely wouldn't do it anyway. But I am surely not going to bite off anyone's head or think badly of them for this. I recognize myself as the odd factor in this. Having said that, only one person has ever held a coat for me ever, and it was only once-- my exhusband.

In the same way that you men walk a line of not being sure what you can and cannot do without reprocusions in every situation, we women walk a similar line. We have all had the experiences of having our niceness misinterpreted as interest, or having happily accepted a compliment only to have a man interpret that as free license to do whatever he wanted, etc. So, sometimes if you feel you're kind of being cut off, it can have to do with women walking a line as well. I am guilty of basically shutting down any and all conversations and interactions beyond what is necessary until I feel I know a man well enough that he will NOT misinterpert what I am saying, thinking, or doing. I usually work the no touching into something plausible and conversational (not an Arrested Development "No touching!" thing but a kind of anecdote which includes my no touching so they know) so they are forewarned. I am sure I appear extremely b!tchy at times, but being that I make mostly male friends for whatever reason, it cannot be that big of a deal.

I'm not that complicated either, so this isn't like I want a mind-reader by any means. I just want a guy to know that if I smile and ask you about your day every day and compliment your shirt, or whatever, it doesn't mean that randomly one day I want you to grab me and try to have sex with me in the back room because you think "I am so wanting [you]" and make me have to fight you off and be super POed and whatnot. Also, just because I listen to your story about how you had a girlfriend whom you loved very much who died 15 years ago and then give my sympathies, it doesn't mean I want you to try to steal a piece of my hair because you think it's beautiful. And, just because I am buying pie from the store sometimes and standing in front of you in line and accidentally make eye contact so I feel I should smile out of politeness, it doesn't mean I want to go home with you to see your special pie treat. If I ask for directions it doesn't mean i want to hear about why I would make good breeding stock. Just because I let you hold the door doesn't mean i want you to follow me through every aisle of the store telling me about your dog and trying to figure out what we have "in common." Et cetera. These stories can be kind of amusing now, but honestly.. they kind of color the way you view gestures by people as well as offer your own, just like Brad's experience with the coat and such colors his point of view.

I'm one of the weird people who actually just means exactly what I say-- no hidden meanings. I am not flirty. If I flirt you will know it and there is no mystery as to what I want. Then I marry you. End of story. I am determined like that and not interested in wasting time. That doesn't mean I won't talk to men, I just am not a bubbly person... although again this is just me.

My husband carries things for me and holds doors for me and sometimes will open the car door for me. He will also lay clothes out for me if he asks me what I am going to wear and I am getting ready, and he will cook and I will cook... I do most of the cleaning, although if I am tired or something he will do it. He comes from a culture with very strictly defined gender roles. I'm cool with that, because mostly I have decided I would like to retire and my interests lay in areas defined as "female" in his culture anyway (such as not working. Doesn't retirement sound awesome? Reality, student loans, and bills really run contrary to the plan of doing nothing, don't they?) and this works for us. When I retire in two years (G-d willing!) then not only will I be doing what *I* want, but I know he has said since day one that he doesn't want his wife working. No big deal. I couldn't care less about ever showing up for a job ever again. Jobs interfere with what I want to do, like writing, playing with flowers and especially my heirloom vegetables, breeding a red-podded pea, working out, and nerding out over whatever is my subject du jour (currently that is egg color versus breeding for cold tolerance in chickens). Did I make it all the way through calc III? Oh yes. What do i like more than differential equations? Making you a giant cake with chocolate truffle eggs I made myself and a chocolate bird's nest of shavings. That is really what feminism is defined as and should be-- the ability to do whatever you want, within reason and within your capabilities.

In the same way I think men should be able to do that too-- and what it should come down to is an agreement within the relationship itself. I happen to like my husband being a "man" of traditional sorts. It fits with what we both want in a relationship and out of life. The reality of life is, there are responsibilites that have to be taken care of-- either you divide them/ find a solution in such a way that everyone is happy, or you will face resentment within a relationship. Whatever way the couple decides on is the best way-- for them. This could be like how my mom does all the housework except vacuuming (my dad has always done that) and my dad does all the yard work (but weeding,my mom does that) or like how I do all the housework and Ammar does all the yard work... or how a friend of mine does all the yard work and her husband does all the cleaning. No big deal.

I am sure there are Russians who run the gamut of this as well. To a certain extent, the practicing and maintaining of gender roles and manners comes down to the individual's personality. The personality of the individual is also going to affect with whom they associate, and then also color their experiential knowledge.

[eekee 182]

Julianna, I don't think we can ignore that the average woman is built differently from the average man. I've had boyfriends who were very skinny, who could fit into my jeans--but were WAY stronger than me and didn't work out ever. Whereas I work out every day and would be powerless against them. It's simply easier for men to build muscle mass. Sure, there are some women who are able to do stuff like fight fires--I saw one such woman on Women's Ultimate Ninja Warrior--but most will have to work a lot harder to get the same strength as a man. Yes, people should be judged on their merits--but in general, women are less strong. And unless you want to become a body builder or personal trainer, there's not much you can do about it.

It's not about height and weight, but overall strength. You can be 5' tall anf very strong.

Edited May 18, 2009 by eekee

[Nasturtium 500]

Julianna, I don't think we can ignore that the average woman is built differently from the average man. I've had boyfriends who were very skinny, who could fit into my jeans--but were WAY stronger than me and didn't work out ever. Whereas I work out every day and would be powerless against them. It's simply easier for men to build muscle mass. Sure, there are some women who are able to do stuff like fight fires--I saw one such woman on Women's Ultimate Ninja Warrior--but most will have to work a lot harder to get the same strength as a man. Yes, people should be judged on their merits--but in general, women are less strong. And unless you want to become a body builder or personal trainer, there's not much you can do about it.

It's not about height and weight, but overall strength. You can be 5' tall anf very strong.

Except this is still within the same population. Building muscle mass isn't a particular issue-- it's a hormonal issue related to ammounts of testosterone, etc. There have to be biological differences between sexes except in the rarest of cases-- because species which sex have to have each sex do something different. It's also combined with cultural expectations. Where women are expected to take down and haul bundles of lodge poles, they grow up doing it. We happen to seriously look down on women who build massive muscles and who lose majority body fat. You can argue it's a health issue, but some of it is just culture and nothing more. We're also talking dimorphism. Sexual dimporphism is systemic difference in form. People usually assume humans are dimorphic because of the muscle-building abilities and intra-populational height differences... but you have to look species-wide and not just at one population. Also, by admitting it is possible, that 100% rules out dimorphism. I'm not saying women who cannot do these things should be able to just because they are women-- but just saying we are not a sexually dimorphic species. I think that concept is lost on most people, and they attribute the idea to feminism. It's not feminism, it's simple biology and anthropology.

[eekee 182]

OK, so we're not 100% dimorphic--but there ARE going to be differences. Between American women and Russian men, and Russian women and American men--it's still going to be that chances are, the man will be stronger. Except in cases where the woman is a body-builder or whatever. It's POSSIBLE, but more difficult.

[GiGii 4]

I know of no young russian alki's, or woman beaters.

Hmmm. No offense, but you really seem like a person who sees the world as she wants to see it. Spend *any* time in Russia, and you can't help but see the effects of alcoholism in Russia. Spend some time in a small village (as I have), and it will stare you in the face almost every second you are out of doors. And the reason you don't know of any "woman beaters" is because it's not usually done publicly, although I've seen it happen in night clubs.

About Russia's 75 cents to a mans dollar, this will never change. We can't get this working in the US, how would we in countries where women are less valued.

Not that it's germane to the feminism discussion, but again, you're seeing things the way you want to see them, but you are wrong. Wages between men and women in the US are closing (the gap widens sometimes, and then closes again, but the overall trend is smaller), and have been closing for decades. And even closer to Russia, if I remember correctly one of the Scandinavian countries actually has a practically nil gap between wages. So it has been working in the US and abroad, so there's no reason to think it couldn't happen in Russia. But there has to be political and social will to push such change, which probably isn't there yet.

1. If you read my posts, you'd notice that what I wrote, I stated that it was more seen in large cities, not small villages. Please read before you attack. I dont have to have your view or opinion. I see the world as I see it and base MY opinions on it. You can see it as you wish, and those are your opinions, but I'm not wrong because mine differ.

2. Let me prove why you are wrong. You get on here with your made up facts and think you are this RU & US expert. The age gap is not closing in, its widening. And my 75 cents was wrong, gov't says it is 75.5 cents for a mans dollar. Women orgs say its 78cents. Still not close to closing in or small, and since 2005 the gap is widening.

"The workplace pay gap between men and women, once thought to be narrowing, has only been getting worse, according to an analysis of recently released census data conducted by the Institute for Women’s Policy Research. Women make only 75.5 cents for every dollar that men earn, according to a new release by the U.S. Census Bureau."

[Brad and Vika 129]

[eekee 182]

I know of no young russian alki's, or woman beaters.

Hmmm. No offense, but you really seem like a person who sees the world as she wants to see it. Spend *any* time in Russia, and you can't help but see the effects of alcoholism in Russia. Spend some time in a small village (as I have), and it will stare you in the face almost every second you are out of doors. And the reason you don't know of any "woman beaters" is because it's not usually done publicly, although I've seen it happen in night clubs.

About Russia's 75 cents to a mans dollar, this will never change. We can't get this working in the US, how would we in countries where women are less valued.

Not that it's germane to the feminism discussion, but again, you're seeing things the way you want to see them, but you are wrong. Wages between men and women in the US are closing (the gap widens sometimes, and then closes again, but the overall trend is smaller), and have been closing for decades. And even closer to Russia, if I remember correctly one of the Scandinavian countries actually has a practically nil gap between wages. So it has been working in the US and abroad, so there's no reason to think it couldn't happen in Russia. But there has to be political and social will to push such change, which probably isn't there yet.

1. If you read my posts, you'd notice that what I wrote, I stated that it was more seen in large cities, not small villages. Please read before you attack. I dont have to have your view or opinion. I see the world as I see it and base MY opinions on it. You can see it as you wish, and those are your opinions, but I'm not wrong because mine differ.

2. Let me prove why you are wrong. You get on here with your made up facts and think you are this RU & US expert. The age gap is not closing in, its widening. And my 75 cents was wrong, gov't says it is 75.5 cents for a mans dollar. Women orgs say its 78cents. Still not close to closing in or small, and since 2005 the gap is widening.

"The workplace pay gap between men and women, once thought to be narrowing, has only been getting worse, according to an analysis of recently released census data conducted by the Institute for Women’s Policy Research. Women make only 75.5 cents for every dollar that men earn, according to a new release by the U.S. Census Bureau."

I trust you on the gap stuff, as I don't really know the statistics all that well. But I think you need to stop with the "this is only what traditional people in the village are like; in big cities men are like this" BS. I've never been to the village--unless you consider St. Petersburg a village. I know only young, well-educated, trendy Russians; the equivalent of American hipsters. Tradtional attitudes toward are pervasive, even in big cities. And alcoholism has a strong genetic component and I don't see how you can magically change that by deciding to be "not villagey." I don't really get who you're hanging around with in Russia--teetotallers? Nerds? Career-obsessed Muscovites who work all the time? If anything, things have gotten worse in Russia in regard to this stuff. Look at life expectancy for men fifty years ago versus today. It used to be pretty normal. Now it's what, 58? And why? Alcoholism. Alcohol-induced injuries. Alcohol-caused fighting. And then throw in a little bit of heroin--a Russian will live for an average of 7 years after shooting up the first time. Ask your husband how many of his friends from school or university have died, and then compare it to your own numbers. Seems like traditional grandfather was living an OK lifestyle.

[mox 298]

1. If you read my posts, you'd notice that what I wrote, I stated that it was more seen in large cities, not small villages. Please read before you attack. I dont have to have your view or opinion. I see the world as I see it and base MY opinions on it. You can see it as you wish, and those are your opinions, but I'm not wrong because mine differ.

2. Let me prove why you are wrong. You get on here with your made up facts and think you are this RU & US expert. The age gap is not closing in, its widening. And my 75 cents was wrong, gov't says it is 75.5 cents for a mans dollar. Women orgs say its 78cents. Still not close to closing in or small, and since 2005 the gap is widening.

"The workplace pay gap between men and women, once thought to be narrowing, has only been getting worse, according to an analysis of recently released census data conducted by the Institute for Women’s Policy Research. Women make only 75.5 cents for every dollar that men earn, according to a new release by the U.S. Census Bureau."

God...you're really hawt when you're all hot and bothered like this. If you were to run off now and make me a sandwich, you'd be perfect.