Failing relationships

[mox 298]

Yeah, you would think that (PJs and UGGS came from somewhere, right?)

Heh!

[WalkonWildSide 0]

^Where are those from? Englishrussia.com?

I've had them on my computer forever. They crack me up!

[eekee 182]

Are you sure? I think the pull of laziness would outweigh any kind of "omg but I'm a FEMINIST" reaction.

Yeah, you would think that (PJs and UGGS came from somewhere, right?) but for some reason most AWs think when a dude is offering to help them, he's offering (as Chris Rock said) to "help them with some d--k." And they're probably right, but at least RWs have the balls to accept help without feeling obligated to do something in return.

I spent the first several months my wife was here trying to explain how women have given up their own right to femininity by being feminist. Further, in demanding "equal" treatment they've guaranteed they can no longer be afforded "lady" treatment because of it. Not publicly, anyway, and that's where AMs have been conditioned, over time, to only offer to help if they're indeed offering to help with some d--k.

Kind of defeats the whole purpose of the system, no?

When I got back from Russia after the first time I went with my guy friend took me to buy a printer. I stood there, waiting. He was like, "What are you standing there for?" And I was like um I'm waiting for you to carry this to the car. He thought I was insane.

Sometimes American men WILL carry things for you, even ones you don't know. Like putting heavy suitcases on luggage racks or something. But you can't expect American men to carry things for you if you're deemed capable of carrying it yourself.

The American version of feminism doesn't translate to Russia because women have been in the workforce since the revolution. There was no feminine mystique with stay at home moms. The idea of feminism as a movement that allows women to have the choice between working and staying home with kids doesn't apply to Russia, because every woman works--unless you marry somebody super super rich I guess. To Russian men feminists are men-haters, not women who want equality. And I'm not really sure what being "equal" with men in Russia would net you. I would definitely rather be a woman in Russia than a man.

I do have lots of American female friends who have lived in Russia but never dated a Russian guy, because they couldn't deal with the return to more traditional roles than well-educated, urban, feminist American women are used to.

[Brad and Vika 129]

I do have lots of American female friends who have lived in Russia but never dated a Russian guy, because they couldn't deal with the return to more traditional roles than well-educated, urban, feminist American women are used to.

[eekee 182]

^I'm not sure what you're laughing at, cause it's true. They don't want a man who kind of needs to be taken care of. They don't want to answer the statement "I'm hungry" with "What do you want? We have kotlety, pelmeni, eggs, and hot dogs." They answer with "OK, go look in the kitchen and make yourself something." And that can be as offensive as not carrying your woman's bags. I mean, if I'm not doing anything and they're very busy playing video games or being hungover, I'm fine with doing that kind of thing. But a lot of my American female friends just can't deal.

Edited May 13, 2009 by eekee

[slim 1,514]

Field Museum, Brad?

[Brad and Vika 129]

^I'm not sure what you're laughing at, cause it's true. They don't want a man who kind of needs to be taken care of. They don't want to answer the statement "I'm hungry" with "What do you want? We have kotlety, pelmeni, eggs, and hot dogs." They answer with "OK, go look in the kitchen and make yourself something." And that can be as offensive as not carrying your woman's bags. I mean, if I'm not doing anything and they're very busy playing video games or being hungover, I'm fine with doing that kind of thing. But a lot of my American female friends just can't deal.

Not laughing ekee, just being sarcastic. I think you are absolutely right on. You are preaching to the choir here. IMO, American men are trained almost from birth to be softer and more maleable, while women here are trained to be "equals", whatever that means. It does lead to a blurring of gender roles, and many (I will stick my neck out here and say most) of us who married women from Eastern Europe actually like the traditional roles. We are never sure if what my wife would call "acting like man" is the right thing. In her opinion, acting like a man includes just the activities you describe - helping her out of the taxi, carrying the bags, etc.

Field Museum, Brad?

Actually, it is that other bastion of culture - the Luxor casino in Las Vegas

[GiGii 4]

^I'm not sure what you're laughing at, cause it's true. They don't want a man who kind of needs to be taken care of. They don't want to answer the statement "I'm hungry" with "What do you want? We have kotlety, pelmeni, eggs, and hot dogs." They answer with "OK, go look in the kitchen and make yourself something." And that can be as offensive as not carrying your woman's bags. I mean, if I'm not doing anything and they're very busy playing video games or being hungover, I'm fine with doing that kind of thing. But a lot of my American female friends just can't deal.

Are you talking about older men? More younger urbanites aren't like that. They like the independence from women (but enjoy when their mom does stuff for them). I know several that have never asked for a cooked meal. If the wife/girlfriend makes it cool, if she doesn't he'll make a sandwich. No fuss. I suppose the further you are from a big city the less this is true, but I think times are slowly changing.

The carrying bags, heavy things, opening doors still applies everywhere.

The reason chivalry is dead in the US is because of feminists. Its not just them wanting equality, its the chicks getting their feathers ruffled if some guy does something nice for them, like hold the door open. A guy will open a door once and get a dirty look or something said to, maybe he'll try once more, but if he gets a can of whoop a$$ again for doing it, then that was the last time he did it. How hard is a simple "thank you."

Being an independent woman (and NOT a feminist or anything of that nature), I was used to doing all the things in life myself. When my husband arrived I thought that the chivalry would end a couple months later... or at least decline. But to this day, every door is opened, every bag carried. I guess it's that stuff that makes woman feel like princesses... and appreciate our men more.

[mox 298]

Sorry, but this isn't right at all.

Not a single man I know is afraid to hold a door open for a woman. I don't know where that comes from, but it's a myth. I've never gotten a dirty look for holding a door open for a woman, and I *always* hold the door open for a woman (or man) when the situation presets itself. Feminism is not the problem, and it's sad to see a woman buying into that kind of Rush Limbaugh BS. It's a lot more complicated than that, and while yes there are some very radical feminists who would probably give me a piece of their mind for holding a door open for them, they are in the fringe minority of feminism and do not represent mainstream cultural trends at all. Even Gloria Steinem has said in interviews that she doesn't mind doors being held open for her or other common courtesies. That's not what feminism is about at all. What feminism has given this country is equal pay for equal work (granted, there's still a lot of work to do on that front, but it's much better than even a couple decades ago), equal opportunities for women to hold traditionally male jobs, the right to not have their asses smacked in the workplace and then being told that it's just guys being guys, the right to vote, the right to have control of their own bodies, and the list goes on.

The reason why "chivalry is dead" in the US is simply because society as a whole has relaxed, and quite frankly men (and women) have gotten lazier, and parents are worse than ever about teaching core values to our children. That's why we wear casual clothes instead of suits and ties to the workplace these days, or why we buy and eat a large percentage of our meals from a drive thru window. Men don't hold doors open or help a lady out with a big package anymore because Americans are fuc*ing lazy and can't be bothered. It has nothing at all to do with feminism. It has everything to do with a culture of laziness and general apathy.

And before Russian men are held up as the ideal in chivalry too much, I'll remind you that women make less money in Russia for doing the same job as a man by a pretty wide gap. Russian women, while expected to bring in 1/2 the income (or at least work a full time job), are also expected to maintain the household, cook, clean, do the shopping, and raise the children. The leading cause of death for married Russian women is at the hands of their husband, and the leading cause of death for all men in Russia is alcoholism, followed closely by drug-related causes. Both countries have their social problems, and neither is close to perfect.

[WalkonWildSide 0]

One of the major differences you will see in USA vs Russia is the holding doors. What I mean is that in the USA it is pretty common for a stranger to hold the door for you, or vice-versa. In Russia, NOT a chance. Sure the guy will hold the door for his GF, mom, etc..but a stranger. No way. And as a foreigner you decide to hold the door for someone in Russia, 50 people will walk through. Crazy.

[eekee 182]

^I'm not sure what you're laughing at, cause it's true. They don't want a man who kind of needs to be taken care of. They don't want to answer the statement "I'm hungry" with "What do you want? We have kotlety, pelmeni, eggs, and hot dogs." They answer with "OK, go look in the kitchen and make yourself something." And that can be as offensive as not carrying your woman's bags. I mean, if I'm not doing anything and they're very busy playing video games or being hungover, I'm fine with doing that kind of thing. But a lot of my American female friends just can't deal.

Are you talking about older men? More younger urbanites aren't like that. They like the independence from women (but enjoy when their mom does stuff for them). I know several that have never asked for a cooked meal. If the wife/girlfriend makes it cool, if she doesn't he'll make a sandwich. No fuss. I suppose the further you are from a big city the less this is true, but I think times are slowly changing.

The carrying bags, heavy things, opening doors still applies everywhere.

The reason chivalry is dead in the US is because of feminists. Its not just them wanting equality, its the chicks getting their feathers ruffled if some guy does something nice for them, like hold the door open. A guy will open a door once and get a dirty look or something said to, maybe he'll try once more, but if he gets a can of whoop a$$ again for doing it, then that was the last time he did it. How hard is a simple "thank you."

Being an independent woman (and NOT a feminist or anything of that nature), I was used to doing all the things in life myself. When my husband arrived I thought that the chivalry would end a couple months later... or at least decline. But to this day, every door is opened, every bag carried. I guess it's that stuff that makes woman feel like princesses... and appreciate our men more.

Maybe in the beginning it's cool, but get six months into a relationship in Russia and see what happens. Sure, they'll make stuff for you too if you ask with no complaints, but it depends on their cooking skill level. I know a girl who's married to a 25 year old guy from Petersburg, lives in Moscow, and he sits at home every night waiting for her to get home from work so she can cook for him. Even if she gets home at 10pm from work, he's there, starving. But in general there is more of an idea that you do things for and take care of the person you're in a relationship with that doesn't seem to be present in American ones.

I still hold the doors open for everyone--I don't think that it should be men hold it open for women; it should be the whoever goes through the door should hold it open for the next person.

And Mox is right too; if feminism should address anything in Russia, it should focus on getting domestic violence to actually be illegal and perceived as a crime.

Edited May 15, 2009 by eekee

[Brad and Vika 129]

Sorry, but this isn't right at all.

Not a single man I know is afraid to hold a door open for a woman. I don't know where that comes from, but it's a myth. I've never gotten a dirty look for holding a door open for a woman, and I *always* hold the door open for a woman (or man) when the situation presets itself. Feminism is not the problem, and it's sad to see a woman buying into that kind of Rush Limbaugh BS. It's a lot more complicated than that, and while yes there are some very radical feminists who would probably give me a piece of their mind for holding a door open for them, they are in the fringe minority of feminism and do not represent mainstream cultural trends at all. Even Gloria Steinem has said in interviews that she doesn't mind doors being held open for her or other common courtesies. That's not what feminism is about at all. What feminism has given this country is equal pay for equal work (granted, there's still a lot of work to do on that front, but it's much better than even a couple decades ago), equal opportunities for women to hold traditionally male jobs, the right to not have their asses smacked in the workplace and then being told that it's just guys being guys, the right to vote, the right to have control of their own bodies, and the list goes on.

The reason why "chivalry is dead" in the US is simply because society as a whole has relaxed, and quite frankly men (and women) have gotten lazier, and parents are worse than ever about teaching core values to our children. That's why we wear casual clothes instead of suits and ties to the workplace these days, or why we buy and eat a large percentage of our meals from a drive thru window. Men don't hold doors open or help a lady out with a big package anymore because Americans are fuc*ing lazy and can't be bothered. It has nothing at all to do with feminism. It has everything to do with a culture of laziness and general apathy.

And before Russian men are held up as the ideal in chivalry too much, I'll remind you that women make less money in Russia for doing the same job as a man by a pretty wide gap. Russian women, while expected to bring in 1/2 the income (or at least work a full time job), are also expected to maintain the household, cook, clean, do the shopping, and raise the children. The leading cause of death for married Russian women is at the hands of their husband, and the leading cause of death for all men in Russia is alcoholism, followed closely by drug-related causes. Both countries have their social problems, and neither is close to perfect.

Rather strong stuff I don't care what you call it (I think we are really confusing each other with definitions here), there is a huge difference between chivalrous behavior and common courtesy by definition. That is part of the problem I talked about in my earlier post. We are so far from chivalry here that we think holding the door qualifies. I also opine that the blurring of gender roles in America is directly related to the feminist movement (not to be confused with lack of courtesy). Control of career path, control of body, control of career, etc. - see the common thread here? I don't know the answers - but maybe it just comes down to what you are comfortable with, or what you can live with. Anything that puts men and women into competition for control of anything that should be cooperative in nature just confuses things more, at least in my opinion.

And back to courtesy. Speaking as a guy who has experienced "I can open my own door, thanks", and had a coat taken from my hands while I held it up for a female colleague to put on, I am happy that with my Viktoriya there is NO doubt at about it being a good idea to take her hand and help her out of the car, even if she doesn't really need it. Lifting and carrying is a given too. The refusal of courtesy didn't happen to me often over the years, and I don't recall it ever being nasty, but that isn't really the point. The point is inconsistent acceptance of same.

[eekee 182]

I wouldn't give up control of my career path, body, etc. But that doesn't mean that people have to be rude. I recognize that I am small, and there are certain jobs which I cannot work and certain tasks that I cannot perform due my physical limitations, and I welcome help from those stronger than me when it comes to carrying stuff. But I also do not want to have babies or be a housewife. I don't think that the ideas of American feminism--that women should have a choice in their lives--necessarily have to mean that politeness and chivalry and recognition that yes, there are certain biological differences (I have had girls try to tell me that their self-defense classes will enable them to fight off a 200 pound, muscle-bound man, which I don't believe) should be ignored and thrown away.

However, in Russia women have been working since the Revolution. The women in my grandmother's generation in my family were all doctors. There is free abortion. Women do not stay at home. Grandmothers do, or the kids go to daycare. As Mox said, there are lots of problems in women's lives in Russia that need to be addressed, but we also have similar problems with pay equality and women getting to high positions in the workforce here. We do have sexual harrassment laws here, and things like that--but it's still a lot harder for women to make the same money and get to the same position as a man and the general accepted number has long been that a woman will make .75 to a man's dollar.

Edited May 15, 2009 by eekee

[slim 1,514]

(granted, there's still a lot of work to do on that front, but it's much better than even a couple decades ago), equal opportunities for women to hold traditionally male jobs, the right to not have their asses smacked in the workplace and then being told that it's just guys being guys, the right to vote, the right to have control of their own bodies, and the list goes on.

Suffrage was way before the right to not have asses smacked. Same goes for feminine destruction of chivalry vs. inter-sex courtesies. Brad illustrated the point nicely with his coworker snatching the coat out of his hands when trying to help her put it on. There's a distinct line and it has way more to do with Beyonce than Susan B. Anthony or Gloria Steinham.

--necessarily have to mean that politeness and chivalry and recognition that yes, there are certain biological differences (I have had girls try to tell me that their self-defense classes will enable them to fight off a 200 pound, muscle-bound man, which I don't believe) should be ignored and thrown away.

As a 200 pound, muscle-bound man (well, a little more on the weight, a little less on the muscles!) I can tell you with confidence there are very, very few women in the whole world, regardless of training, that could fight me off physically. It is a simple biological difference. It exists and it is real.

What complicates it is when women (and anyone for that matter) feel they "deserve" the right to do something simply because they exist. A 110lb. woman who is 5'1" should be a firefighter like I should be an NBA star. It just shouldn't happen. But, if I really like the NBA, why can't I work in the front office? Why can't I be a towel boy? By the same token, why can't she be an arson investigator or fire department administrator? Why? Because she shouldn't have to be. Well, at least that's what they keep telling themselves.

[GiGii 4]

Sorry, but this isn't right at all.

Not a single man I know is afraid to hold a door open for a woman. I don't know where that comes from, but it's a myth. I've never gotten a dirty look for holding a door open for a woman, and I *always* hold the door open for a woman (or man) when the situation presets itself. Feminism is not the problem, and it's sad to see a woman buying into that kind of Rush Limbaugh BS. It's a lot more complicated than that, and while yes there are some very radical feminists who would probably give me a piece of their mind for holding a door open for them, they are in the fringe minority of feminism and do not represent mainstream cultural trends at all. Even Gloria Steinem has said in interviews that she doesn't mind doors being held open for her or other common courtesies. That's not what feminism is about at all. What feminism has given this country is equal pay for equal work (granted, there's still a lot of work to do on that front, but it's much better than even a couple decades ago), equal opportunities for women to hold traditionally male jobs, the right to not have their asses smacked in the workplace and then being told that it's just guys being guys, the right to vote, the right to have control of their own bodies, and the list goes on.

The reason why "chivalry is dead" in the US is simply because society as a whole has relaxed, and quite frankly men (and women) have gotten lazier, and parents are worse than ever about teaching core values to our children. That's why we wear casual clothes instead of suits and ties to the workplace these days, or why we buy and eat a large percentage of our meals from a drive thru window. Men don't hold doors open or help a lady out with a big package anymore because Americans are fuc*ing lazy and can't be bothered. It has nothing at all to do with feminism. It has everything to do with a culture of laziness and general apathy.

And before Russian men are held up as the ideal in chivalry too much, I'll remind you that women make less money in Russia for doing the same job as a man by a pretty wide gap. Russian women, while expected to bring in 1/2 the income (or at least work a full time job), are also expected to maintain the household, cook, clean, do the shopping, and raise the children. The leading cause of death for married Russian women is at the hands of their husband, and the leading cause of death for all men in Russia is alcoholism, followed closely by drug-related causes. Both countries have their social problems, and neither is close to perfect.

Rather strong stuff I don't care what you call it (I think we are really confusing each other with definitions here), there is a huge difference between chivalrous behavior and common courtesy by definition. That is part of the problem I talked about in my earlier post. We are so far from chivalry here that we think holding the door qualifies. I also opine that the blurring of gender roles in America is directly related to the feminist movement (not to be confused with lack of courtesy). Control of career path, control of body, control of career, etc. - see the common thread here? I don't know the answers - but maybe it just comes down to what you are comfortable with, or what you can live with. Anything that puts men and women into competition for control of anything that should be cooperative in nature just confuses things more, at least in my opinion.

And back to courtesy. Speaking as a guy who has experienced "I can open my own door, thanks", and had a coat taken from my hands while I held it up for a female colleague to put on, I am happy that with my Viktoriya there is NO doubt at about it being a good idea to take her hand and help her out of the car, even if she doesn't really need it. Lifting and carrying is a given too. The refusal of courtesy didn't happen to me often over the years, and I don't recall it ever being nasty, but that isn't really the point. The point is inconsistent acceptance of same.

Thank you Brad. It seems according to Mox that no one has been turned down when they do an act of chivalry. Chicks do it to show that they are unreliable of a man. Is this the true definition of how feminism started, no. But this is what it has led to.

And the helping of a lady put her coat on... if I saw this in the workplace, I would almost think they have a thing going, instead of "oh what a polite man", simply because it is not seen.

Does laziness and lack of parents teaching have its effect also, sure it does. But its a mixture of both feministic ideas (even if the ladies dont define feminism this way) and lack of men knowing what a true mans role is.

Eekee you mentioned about the Russian man waiting till his lady got home to cook for him. It is traditional Russians that do this, however I pointed that perhaps times are changing. I have a young Russian guy and he cooks (ok not gourmet food, but cooks!), he cleans, we split chores, he doesnt drink and is not a woman beater. Is this one in a million? I think its the way you are brought up at home. If the mom sat there and took ####### from the dad each day, let her beat him, served like a slave then its no wonder the son would do the same thing. Like I said, I think times are slowly changing. I know of no young russian alki's, or woman beaters.

As for laws protecting women, all of Eastern Europe lacks these. If a woman dials 911 for help, they'd think its just a "quarrel" and ignore it. My MIL told me about some girl that had 3 kids, he beat her almost weekly, she kept calling for help, and if/when police arrived the a$$hole would lie and say that she's cheating on him, cops would leave. He did this for 6 months, then one night she locked herself in the bathroom so he would stop beating her, he beat the kids and told them to run to their grandparents cause he was going to kill their daughter. By the time the grandparents arrived, she was dead. Police do not act on it, cause that's all they would do, attend housecalls.

About Russia's 75 cents to a mans dollar, this will never change. We can't get this working in the US, how would we in countries where women are less valued.