Failing relationships

[slim 1,525]

I'm glad you and your wife talked about the possibility of divorce (not making it a taboo, actually seeing if it felt right), but ultimately decided to stay together.

We're still "deciding" and probably will be forever!

It sounds like it took a while but eventually you found what worked for the both of you.

Still working on it. We basically both got to the point where we were like, "screw you, I'm going to do my own thing." We kept the mutual respect and of course stayed within the bounds of traditional marriage (doing our own thing is our hobbies and interests, not cruising the bars for some strange!) and that's what actually reminded us that we'd like to do some stuff together too. Not everything, and we shouldn't do everything together. But, a lot of things we do. The difference is now we want to whereas before it was more like, "GET AWAY FROM ME! I'M IN MY NOTHING BOX!!!"

the woman is usually not able to see the man in everyday activities until she arrived in the U.S. Then when the woman arrived some men can felt like the hard work is over and he can just go back to how his life was before, with a slight difference. Some do not fully understand this is when the real work begins.

Slim is that guy! If I had a dollar for everytime my wife told me that I had to change my life now that she's here I'd be rich. Probably the biggest fight for us is when I tell her that my life IS our life now, that's just part of her coming here. If I would've went there, her life would've been mine. Sure, I try to accomodate her as much as possible and I really would like to change my life around so we could live the life she wants to. But, I don't know where I can work two hours a day for $500,000/year. As soon as I find that job, I'll be more than happy to accomodate her whims. Til then, she better get to work and help me pay these bills!

[WalkonWildSide 0]

But, I don't know where I can work two hours a day for $500,000/year. As soon as I find that job,

If you find that job, I would be more than happy to split the work for you for only 40% of the salary.

Actually the only people that I know that can make that kind of money are celebs, Paris Hilton made 22 million in 2006-2007 from doing her endorsement deals. She got paid 150K to show up at a Halloween party. Nice.

[GiGii 4]

Slims post rocks!

All relationships have their ups & downs sure, but that's blah blah to the OP looking for a real reason that things aren't the way they once were. People do change, they get used to relationships and sometimes treat them as "maintenance free" when they aren't.

I'll tell you a little about our situation. My husband came here, dropped everything, even school to be with me. Was i thrilled, sure. But I dont think I appreciated it enough, soon it was just like "this is my husband, this is what he does, this is what I do, tada marriage!" The problem was I was still so wrapped up in my life and my activities that I kinda lost track of his happiness. He was super homesick, he missed his very tight nit family and most of all doing guy things with guys. Here he just seemed like my accomplice, not a true partner, cause he jumped right in the middle of my life. So he grew a little distant, to the point I got off my high horse to notice. Then the odd stuff grew kinda worse and I started seeing sadness.

What broke the silence? A fight We let each other hear all the negativity that we were holding deep inside get out. He felt a little better, but I realized that he was depressed and I kinda fed that depression. It came down to the fact that life here was not as he imagined, "our" life was not as he imagined. And its realizing it so blantly that led to changes.

Even though I'm very independent, I take him along more places, just so he feels loved & important. Is this what I would normally do for anyone else? No, but he dropped the world for me, i think I can do a little something for him too.

I know my story is not like yours Kotenochek, however maybe you can gain something through it. Maybe he just got used to you being around and forgot to make you feel more appreciated, tell him your thoughts and insecurities, if he has a heart, he'll act on the talk.

Slim - none of my business, but i just had to ask. You let your wife go alone with a "buddy" to FL? I guess I'm too jealous to let something like that fly.

[KGSodie 0]

Even though I'm very independent, I take him along more places, just so he feels loved & important. Is this what I would normally do for anyone else? No, but he dropped the world for me, i think I can do a little something for him too.

Lots of good stuff in this thread. Cheers to all.

GiGii's quote above is central to my own line of thought. Natasha gave up everything when she moved here - her close-knit family (especially her sister), her job, ease of communication, her entire way of life. Whenever I feel myself getting upset of the 'unfairness' of something wrong between us, it's my mantra: "Chill - no matter how hard something is for me, it's 10x harder for Natasha". That said, every guy is different. I don't always agree with Slim, but I can always understand where he is coming from.

As bobb said, communication is paramount. When two people join lives, it's not all rainbows and unicorns, and clear-thinking adults should understand this. If your man is a man, he'll understand this too. I don't care how well someone speaks English, how much American TV they watch, how deeply they think they understand life here - the reality is certain to be different. This also applies to the relationship, not just culture. Is he the same guy you married? Nope. Are you the same girl he married? Nope. Time brings change, it's inevitable. Sometimes the change is good, sometimes it's meh, and sometimes it's bad. Working through the problems and issues of day to day life is what brings a couple closer together. What that means for you two will be different than it is for us.

The tough part is addressing unhappiness and concern without coming across as nagging and whining. This works both ways, by the way, for both people. Any sentence that starts with "You always...." or "You never...." is probably not constructive to relationship building. Talk about how you feel and what your needs are, and chances are he'll respond with how he feels and what his needs are. Then find the middle ground, even if sometimes that means retreat on the part of one of you. And if there's something that is critical to your needs, make it clear and stand your ground. Frying pan optional, of course.

Natasha has, on more than one occasion, told me she'd had enough and wanted to return to Russia. It used to upset me until I figured out that her statement was really born out of deep frustration with something, sometimes not even to do with me. I learned that it was at these times that I needed to shut my mouth and open my ears and heart, and hear what Natasha was trying to really say. Homesickness is a terrible thing and creeps up on you. Different cultures have different paces to life, and it's an insidious foe.

You have friends here, so read the various advices and take away what seems appropriate for your situation. Good luck!

[chili74 0]

Very nice message above. I feel a bit sheepish that I did not put more effort into my post compared to all of these honest and helpful ones...

We wish you the best, Котёночек!!

[MAO36 30]

Hello To All,

I always read the various threads and very seldom will I respond in writing but this is one I can relate to completely.

My husband is from Nigeria. He came here on the K3 visa (big mistake, we should have taken the CR1 route). Anyway, just like it was mentioned earlier, when you are finally united as a married couple who has been apart for close to a year, nothing can feel more right. The love is something out of your favorite love story book (for the girls ofcourse), for the man at this point you are not even thinking about how much you miss your homies. You are both consumed in making up for lost time and enjoying the euphoria.

At some point as was mentioned, the euphoria simmers down, reality sets in. Hubby has to find a job, get his license, familiarize himself with the American english dialect so that he can communicate more effectively. He has to get to know his wife and the step children he inherited. (Let's face it), you really don't know one another as well as you would have if you both lived in the same country. We began to quareel about any and everything. I began to get very frustrating while waiting for the EAD, the SS card, him almost killing me with his driving skills(lol) etc, etc and without realizing it became very controlling. As my husband would tell you, instead of feeling like a man and a Husband, he felt like my child. I also did not realize, not only did he feel like a child but like a lost child with no relatives to run to for support. I couldn't see it, instead I began to complain "Where is the romance you showed me in your country", I want flowers, I want cards, I want you to tell me you love me more. I did not even realize what he was going through in his own life. He finally admitted he feels like a fish out of water sometimes.

I changed my approach. I have become less demanding, less controlling, stopped mentioning the Do you know all I have done to get you here" speech and put myself in his shoes. I began helping him with his resume, suggesting certain careers including furthering his education. I have started listening more and biting my tongue when I have a different opinion on small minor issues(men love to feel like their right) which is ok when it doesn't hurt anyone or anything. So far so good Guys, no it's not my Cinderella romance but it is one that has great potentional! He has even agreed to being more affectionate(why just this morning I woke up to him rubbing my back) WOW!-what a treat!! which he says is easier when I'm not hollering and belittling him. He said a man cannot express his love when the woman is constantly complaning and focusing on the negatives.

I hope this makes sense. LOL

[bobb 0]

...I learned that it was at these times that I needed to shut my mouth and open my ears...

A very wise insight. One of the biggest problems in any form of communication is 'hearing' what the other person said. Actually hearing and responding. Not thinking ahead to emphasize your previous thoughts and not really 'listening' when the other is talking. What is needed is a flowing conversation.

Men and women can have the same experience and the descriptions will be totally different. Men and women think differently. It is important to understand this to promote better communication.

...Natasha gave up everything when she moved here - her close-knit family (especially her sister), her job, ease of communication, her entire way of life...

Many men lose sight of this very important point after the woman arrives.

[slim 1,525]

Slim - none of my business, but i just had to ask. You let your wife go alone with a "buddy" to FL? I guess I'm too jealous to let something like that fly.

My wife has plenty of opportunity to be unfaithful here but yet she still comes home to her poor, fat, primitive husband. Adding a little sand isn't going to change the equation too much.

Jealousy is the most overrated of all emotions. It's 100% unnecessary.

The tough part is addressing unhappiness and concern without coming across as nagging and whining.

Ladies, take note. This is super important!

Men are fixers. We like to fix whatever problems you have (or we have together) but we're not the best at detecting the problem or even fully realizing what it is. We assume that no news is good news. Since you didn't tell us, nothing is wrong, right?

You have to carefully describe it to us in a clear, concise, and objective manner so we can ascertain the best course of action to remedy the problem. If you come across as condescending or unappreciative it almost sounds as if the problem is not something we can fix, but something in your head. (And we never, ever try to fix that!)

You say - "I watch TV today and on this show they have wonderful, nice romantic dinner then he make for her massage and sweet love near fire." What you mean is, "it's been so long since we've had a romantic time together and I saw it on TV today and remember how nice and wonderful our relationship once was. Can you please make it that way again?" We hear - "I was watching TV.... blah, blah, blah."

Try this - "I want nice dinner and romantic time on Saturday night. I watch TV and see this and remember how we have wonderful time together but not since couple months ago. We must do this again Saturday." What you mean is - "it's been so long since we've had a romantic time together and I saw it on TV today and remember how nice and wonderful our relationship once was. Can you please make it that way again?" We hear - "Saturday I'm gettin some as long as I take her to a nice dinner first and make a massage. OK. Gotta remember dinner and massage. Dinner, massage, Saturday. Saturday dinner massage dinner massage dinner Saturday." (We wont' forget the gettin some part, trust me!)

Men have very simple motivations. If it doesn't pertain to gettin some, food, or one of our hobbies (sports, cars, guns, gettin some, pie, food, sports, beer, gettin some) then there's really only like, maybe 50% chance that we'll even remember what you're talking about. But, if you tie it into one of those things above, we'll NEVER forget. Conversely, if you relate it to something totally unrelated to the things above, we will intentionally forget it! "I'm going to my mom's house on Saturday." We just heard "I'm going blah, blah, blah." Or, we heard, "On Saturday you can watch baseball and drink beer all night because I won't be here."

And remember too, we don't like to be wrong. We don't like it when things are broken. If you make it sound like something is wrong, and we did it, we'll doubly ignore and forget it. "You never even want to see my mother so I'm going without you." - "Hallelujah! I'm going to watch baseball and drink beer all night on Saturday night. Why? I don't know, all I know is she said something about her mom and Saturday and she won't be here."

Try this - "I know you don't like going to my mother's house and I know you're going to miss your baseball game and can't drink your PBR, but, it's important to me (always say something is important. If it's important, we will take more note.) that you go with me. Please make yourself available and come with me on Saturday night. (Then always ask for confirmation.) Can you come with me on Saturday night? (Add emphasis!) I'd really appreciate it if you could come along, it would mean a lot to me. (Then seal the deal.) And you know what happens when you do something for me......."

We'll be sitting on your mom's sofa talking about spring fashion before you know it. Why? Because not only did you ask us (requested for a valid reason, not because of some emotional whatever) but you also related it to something that's important to us. (Something for me = something for you.) Do we want to make you happy? Yes. But we want to make you happy so you'll quit nagging us.

he says is easier when I'm not hollering and belittling him. He said a man cannot express his love when the woman is constantly complaning and focusing on the negatives.

Chris Rock said it best - "Ladies, if you want to truly make your man happy. I mean really, really happy, you only gotta do three simple things. That's it. Just three. And it aint what you been seein in them ladies magazines. Why do ladies even make them stupid lists anyway. All you gotta do is three things. Those three things are - Give me some head, make me a sandwich, and don't talk so much. That's it! I guarantee you if you do those three things, your man will always be happy!"

Gospel.

Many men lose sight of this very important point after the woman arrives.

While I can empathize with that point of view, and even take it into consideration, the fact remains life is here now. Sure, it sucks they had to leave everything behind and start over, but that's part of the deal, and the sooner they can get on with that, the better. I'm not saying it shouldn't be considered, I'm just saying life here should be priority and the whole excuse of, "I can't function in accordance with life in the U.S. because I made this huge sacrifice." is not a valid one.

I've been accused of being somewhat cold on this issue (not by my wife but by others on the forum) but I whole-heartedly believe assimilation should begin on day one and there should be no turning back. Life begins anew once they arrive. Sure, they should have connections back home, but only after things here are taken care of. For instance, going back home to visit. That's all well and good, once you have vacation time from your job and have saved up enough money to cover expenses of your life here in the U.S. while you're gone. Different financial situations are going to dictate the timing and duration of trips back home, but this nonsense of "I'm going back for three months because I miss home." is complete and total BS.

[WalkonWildSide 0]

Slim: Write a book - even better make a video with lots of explosions and shooting stuff, and put your pearls of wisdom in there. You'll make a million bucks. Maybe it will take more than 2 hours, but should be a pretty big money tree.

[Brad and Vika 129]

...I learned that it was at these times that I needed to shut my mouth and open my ears...

A very wise insight. One of the biggest problems in any form of communication is 'hearing' what the other person said. Actually hearing and responding. Not thinking ahead to emphasize your previous thoughts and not really 'listening' when the other is talking. What is needed is a flowing conversation.

Men and women can have the same experience and the descriptions will be totally different. Men and women think differently. It is important to understand this to promote better communication.

...Natasha gave up everything when she moved here - her close-knit family (especially her sister), her job, ease of communication, her entire way of life...

Many men lose sight of this very important point after the woman arrives.

I am a little late to the party here, but I have really appreciated what the posters here have to say to a guy in the early (4 months) stages of the relationship. I chose to respond to this post because it appears to me to go to the heart of some of the OP and the response chain Slim started.

Vika and I are definitely in the throws of the "post-honeymoon", and I find that about 90% of our disagreements come from various forms of poor communication. Usually we can laugh about it later, but boy-howdy, how the fireworks can fly. For the other 10%, we have two main areas of disagreement, sleep and food. Vika enjoys (and needs) MUCH more sleep than I do - ten hours a day even when she feels good. No problem right? But she also likes to sleep until lunch time, and is most active while I am most tired in the evening. She also talks (or shouts) in her sleep - each night either simply waking me, or scaring the ####### out of me as she shouts in Russian. When she is up late talking to her girlfriends she is more restless. I find the situation mentally and emotionally draining, and tend to be fairly irritable by the end of the week. I am constantly reminding myself to be aware of her growing homesickness, and that her frustration over not being able to get a SSN or drive yet are the primary cause of the weird schedule. Vika comes from a very close family, and like many Eastern Europeans, calling frequently to each other and planning to come together are as necessary to her as breathing. She seldom talks about her anxiety over the poor health of her grandfathers (both), or the guilt she sometimes feels because her parents and other relatives are caring for them without her help. Like Slim, a movie or game on TV and a sixer are fine with me most of the time, and my relatives don't want or expect me to care for them.

Slim is spot on, that this is not just about the paperwork. It is really a help to me to read what others think and experience on this journey, and I thank especially the few of you who have talked with me by phone over the past few months. Although like Slim's wife, my Viktoriya would rather I not post too many personal details on the web, it is pretty nice to get some sense that we are not alone in these experiences.

Oh yeah, about the food. We repeatedl argue about Vika opening and enjoying stinky, salty fish in the house while I am around. I know it is juvenile, but I can't resist trying constantly to get her to spare me that one particular cultural enrichment. She can buy, keep, and eat it all she wants - just not inside around me. Thank God that the weather has turned, and she has totally created a pleasant environment for eating out on the patio

[slim 1,525]

Slim: Write a book - even better make a video with lots of explosions and shooting stuff, and put your pearls of wisdom in there. You'll make a million bucks. Maybe it will take more than 2 hours, but should be a pretty big money tree.

Already in the works! If I had a little more time (or a rich uncle who could fund me) I'd already have my screen play done. In the mean time, I gotta work at the factory and pay some bills. Here, maybe this will tide you over until the big release date - http://vids.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseacti...ideoID=37942594

sleep and food. Vika enjoys (and needs) MUCH more sleep than I do - ten hours a day even when she feels good. No problem right? But she also likes to sleep until lunch time, and is most active while I am most tired in the evening. She also talks (or shouts) in her sleep - each night either simply waking me, or scaring the ####### out of me as she shouts in Russian. When she is up late talking to her girlfriends she is more restless. I find the situation mentally and emotionally draining, and tend to be fairly irritable by the end of the week.

During the week my wife and I are on totally separate schedules and we often do not sleep together. (I'm not joking about the couch.) We usually don't eat together either and if we eat together, it's more like eating "at the same time" as she'll eat her stuff and I'll eat mine. Very seldom do we have an actual meal together but when we do have the chance to do so, we'll eat our own stuff together at the table.

We tried to "force it" to work (sleeping and eating) when we first lived together but over time it naturally evolved into this anyway. Let it happen now and save yourself a lot of heartache. You should do what you can together, but you shouldn't "have to" do it together if it works better for you separately. Cuddle on the couch before going to bed or lay in bed together for a while then go your separate ways. Make your dinner together or make your stuff then let her eat that nasty fish, but sit down outside together. There are lots of ways to still make it work while still enjoying yourself.

And where is Kotenocheck, by the way? She got all this started and hasn't been back!

[Kotenochek 0]

I've actually tried to post some of the "bad" stuff here because I believe the other part of our Visa Journey (The unofficial stuff that doesn't directly deal with visas, immigration, paperwork, etc. - The everyday life stuff.) is just as important, maybe more so, than the visa. My wife wasn't thrilled when I shared some personal details here on the forum but I think it's a great place to get feedback and advice and to also help us realize we're not alone and many of us here are going through similar situations. Sure, we're not all best friends, but we're not really strangers either. Some things we can share because we don't really know each other but other things we try to keep private when really, we should be sharing. I made a good friend through VJ, met in person, and wouldn't feel funny sharing anything with him or his wife. Several others here on the forum I've never met but I'm pretty sure we'd be good buddies too. (On that note, it's time to get a VJ Russia Forum meetup going!) Anyway, we're all going through something, and maybe what you're going through is exactly what someone else needs to hear. So, that's my little plea to everyone to open up a little more. Don't feel like you have to keep everything private. Share!

OK - Kotenochek, from the limited bit of things you've posted about your husband, he seems like a pretty good guy, and what sounds like is happening is just the lull that naturally occurs once the fire and passion and the "newness" of being together wears off and the daily grind sets in. My wife absolutely HATED me for about a year (OK, more like two years) because she expected all those nice things that I did while we were still in the "warming up" stages to continue indefinitely. I'm telling you, as a man, I'm not going to buy flowers all the time. I'm not going to go out of my way to be romantic, all the time. As a matter of fact, now that we've been married for a while, dare I say, I shouldn't have to. - And that's where the problems start.

See, women expect a man to always be that guy. The guy who they fell in love with, the guy who waited out in the rain for two hours, the guy who held their hair while they puked (bad example, but you get the point) the guy who cared about them and asked them how their day was. That nice, wonderful, loving, adoring guy.

Men, on the other hand, expect that she will be that same girl. That girl who didn't care if he went out with his buddies because they'd catch up later. That girl who didn't care if he wore pants with wrinkles in them. That girl who would "surprise him" while he was driving to dinner. That girl who was fun to be around, who didn't care if he wanted to do his own thing, who didn't really make a big deal about anything except spending time together once in a while.

And what happened?

He turned into the guy who stopped trying. Who was unwilling to go the extra mile. The guy who would rather watch TV than give his wife a massage. She turned into the girl who now, instead of saying, "I'll see you later" said, "You better see me now or else there won't be a later." That funky spontaneity was gone, and everything turned all serious!

Why?

Well, short answer is you went from "dating" (and trying to impress upon each other 100% of your good qualities and mutual interests) to "cohabitating" (living together and sharing every single little itty bitty piece and intricate detail of your entire life) and now there's no more room for 100% to be good. Bad things are a part of life, and they have to be dealt with together.

It's hard to do. Especially in cases like ours where you take two adult people who are accustomed to living totally separate lives and then try to mesh them into one, and do it in a hurry. Usually the cohabitating stage can be prolonged before marriage and serious relationships develop over time. She leaves a toothbrush. He has a drawer. She stays over more and more. Then they decide to be together forever. In our cases, we jump in head first then have to sort out who gets which drawer and where our toothbrushes go.

And it's an ongoing process. My wife and I celebrated our second anniversary with a nice dinner and toasted to getting divorced. We seriously were at that point where we just could not stand each other anymore and both of us were ready to throw in the towel. We actually sat there and told each other how pissed off we'd become and then drank to getting it over with. The weird thing is, that was kind of a release for both of us. Once we took that stress off each other, and started doing our own thing, it started working out pretty good. Right now, she's in Florida with a buddy of hers and I'm here at home. Why? Because that's what she wanted to do and I'm glad she's doing something to make herself happy. When she makes herself hapy... I DON'T HAVE TO!!!! When the obligation is gone, and you're free to enjoy yourself, it's a lot more fun to enjoy together.

Men and women are different. The person you married isn't exactly who you thought they'd be, but you do like each other. If you take the stress off of trying to make it work, and just let it naturally work itself out, it will. There are going to be rough spots and things that don't seem all that great, but if you do your own thing and make yourself happy through them, then your partner is free to do so as well. You can't make your partner happy when you're not happy yourself. And really, it's not your job to make your partner happy, it's their job to be happy together with you. If they're not, you can work on it together, but really, it's up to them. Trying to "make them happy" will not only NOT make them happy, but it won't make you happy either. Make yourself happy, and your partner will most likely be happier with you having done so.

There's an interesting video out there, maybe you should watch it. The guy pretty much sums up the interesting dynamic of the difference between what's going on in our brains. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GuMZ73mT5zM Watch that video, and see if what's going on in your relationship is really as serious as you think it may be. Or is he just in his "nothing box?"

Keep the stories coming, keep posting them, and everyone, come on! Don't make VJ just about paperwork. The most important part of our Journeys is after the visa!

thank you so much!!!this helped!!!

[chili74 0]

And, lo, Slim did command us to Share! And share, we did.

[Brad and Vika 129]

During the week my wife and I are on totally separate schedules and we often do not sleep together. (I'm not joking about the couch.) We usually don't eat together either and if we eat together, it's more like eating "at the same time" as she'll eat her stuff and I'll eat mine. Very seldom do we have an actual meal together but when we do have the chance to do so, we'll eat our own stuff together at the table.

We tried to "force it" to work (sleeping and eating) when we first lived together but over time it naturally evolved into this anyway. Let it happen now and save yourself a lot of heartache. You should do what you can together, but you shouldn't "have to" do it together if it works better for you separately. Cuddle on the couch before going to bed or lay in bed together for a while then go your separate ways. Make your dinner together or make your stuff then let her eat that nasty fish, but sit down outside together. There are lots of ways to still make it work while still enjoying yourself.

We really don't have a problem eating together, and prefer to do that at this point (other than when she wants to eat the salty fish). I have hope that the sleep stuff will work itself out in time. I think it is typical for one person to sleep more lightly than the other, and I am definitely the light sleeper here. Also, VIka came from an environment where people live much closer, and apparently learned to sleep through a pretty constant racket - her room being right next to the kitchen and WC with a door of mostly bevelled glass.

[WalkonWildSide 0]

Brad: With the needing more hours of sleep per day...this is a typical FSU woman thing. I have heard this so many times before. Your sleep schedules don't have to align perfectly. Unless both of you work at the same factory on the same shift, somebodies schedule will be different.

In regards to shouting at night. I suffer from this too. It is triggered by stress. Almost always when I am move to a new location the first few months I have this issue. The new location, new sounds, etc, cause stress and it happens. The first time really freaked out the GF. There is nothing you can do about it. You have to learn to live through it. Buy some earplugs is about the best advice one can give. It isn't her fault. She can't control it.

However, it can help if she gets into a good routine and does relaxing things BEFORE going to bed. Talking to mama right before bed is not relaxing, she may disagree but it is true. She needs to read or have a cup of tea or something right before bed. She needs to find something that works.

And by the way when she eventually starts shouting in English, then you will know she is assimilated into American life.