The MENA "Let's discuss religion and our own personal belief" thread

[~PalmTreeGurl~ 154]

Hello Leyla, I will add this regarding your question. The bible clearly states that it was Jesus (the Messiah) that was crucified. It also clearly states that Judas went and hanged himself. GOD did not hang Judas.

(Judas Iscariot said...) "I have sinned by betraying innocent blood.'' And they (the Jewish council) said, "What is that to us? You see to it!''

Then he threw down the pieces of silver in the temple and departed, and went and hanged himself. (Mt 27.4-5)

[~PalmTreeGurl~ 154]

Hello Leyla, I will add this regarding your question. The bible clearly states that it was Jesus (the Messiah) that was crucified. It also clearly states that Judas went and hanged himself. GOD did not hang Judas.

(Judas Iscariot said...) "I have sinned by betraying innocent blood.'' And they (the Jewish council) said, "What is that to us? You see to it!''

Then he threw down the pieces of silver in the temple and departed, and went and hanged himself. (Mt 27.4-5)

edited to add, that by that very same verse of Matthew 27 vs 5 just by Judas saying "I have sinned by betraying innocent blood" also means that he is not referring to himself and 2nd that he is referring to Jesus being crucified.

[sandinista! 1,816]

but isn't it more of a metaphysical question, requiring something much more substantial than just awareness of what's contained in the various holy books? for some, the knowledge of what is stated in matthew is not enough to believe what is stated in matthew. for others it is.

[Nagishkaw 510]

Either you believe it or you dont.

[Leyla 0]

This is where we start to get into questionable waters.

In order to believe the verses in the Bible, one needs to believe in the validity of the Bible, and the same for Qur'an.

Personally, It's .... difficult for me to believe the Holy Books because I can't trust humans. If they were indeed revealed by God at one point, I believe that was the word. However, I feel like the original word has been tampered with. So........yeah. Maybe all of this is a lost effort on my part.

[Nasturtium 500]

That was very informative.

I guess I have A LOT more questions.... but I am afraid it would turn into a discussion with the potential to get out of hand..

Here is one that might be safe. And a question Muslims asked me quite often: If Jesus is God, and God is the only perfect sacrifice, and Jesus was put on earth to be sacrificed for the sins of humans then ....... was God not in heaven during this period of time? (I know this is explained by the trinity but that confuses me too).

But, if Jesus is the SON and not God that would allow God as a whole to stay in heaven while this was going on. Also.... if Jesus is GOD and not a separate divine being, why does he pray to himself?

To me it makes sense that Jesus was not a divine being, but a beloved prophet of God. Generally, I believe the same that Muslims believe when it comes to Jesus. I believe he was a prophet of God with no claim to divinity. I believe that when Judas was taking the Romans over to take Jesus, God took Jesus and made Judas appear as if he was Jesus (Judas became the victim of his own betrayal). The Qur'an says that God made it appear to the people that they had killed Jesus. But really, God took Jesus up to heaven to await the time when he would come back to earth and fight the antichrist.

Soooo yeah.... maybe a PM would be better. Or even a phone call because this can get very confusing for me.

Discussions will only get out of hand in proportion to the immaturity of the participants. So, I wouldn't worry about it.

Re: your first question: Well, that scenario would only work if G-d was like a human, angel, or anything other than G-d. For people who think of G-d as being like a really powerful person, that is a good question, because they are not considering the meaning of omnipresence. G-d is omnipresent-- thus He can be everywhere at once. When G-d appeared to Moses and allowed him to see His back as He passed, G-d wasn't only in that one place at that one time. When G-d appeared in Avraham's dream as smoke and terror in the Shekeineh, He wasn't trapped in Avraham's dream. If your concept of G-d is that He is bound by space and time, then yes, He could only be on earth. If you believe in a G-d not bound by space and time, then He could be in both places. (and that is an answer without any trinity at all. )

Yeshua is the Torah embodied. The Torah is to show us how to live by loving our neighbor as ourselves and loving our G-d with all our hearts. Prayer is a part of that. G-d consults Himself in several places in the Bible. He consults Himself at creation, He consults Himself when thinking about telling Avraham about the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah. Praying/talking to Himself wouldn't be out of the pattern. Also, to empty Himself of His full glory required incredible humbling and allowed for temptation and weakness... so Yeshua was subject to the full array of humanity. This would require self-assurance.

The fate of Judas is recorded twice in the Bible (I won't quote because Tamara did), and foretold in the Tanakh (in the verses I posted earlier). Yeshua could not be messiah if He didn't fulfil this exact role and be sacrificed on the exact dates, etc. He would also have to be G-d to fulfil the role, and have to possess human blood to fulfil the role. So basically, unless you decide to not follow the complete framework (in which case the entire concept is null and void for anyone who did that and a given they wouldn't accept anything out of the Bible), then it has to be one way. HSHM doesn't have many ways, only one way, and the way is strict and clear-cut, never changing, reflecting the absoluteness of His nature and holiness.

but isn't it more of a metaphysical question, requiring something much more substantial than just awareness of what's contained in the various holy books? for some, the knowledge of what is stated in matthew is not enough to believe what is stated in matthew. for others it is.

a metaphysical question about which part?

[Nasturtium 500]

This is where we start to get into questionable waters.

In order to believe the verses in the Bible, one needs to believe in the validity of the Bible, and the same for Qur'an.

Personally, It's .... difficult for me to believe the Holy Books because I can't trust humans. If they were indeed revealed by God at one point, I believe that was the word. However, I feel like the original word has been tampered with. So........yeah. Maybe all of this is a lost effort on my part.

That's pretty much what I was getting at. As far as tampering with the Tanakh, I have yet to find anyone be able to produce the proof in that... the NT has insertions which are pretty clearly identifiable and openly acknowledged. The Tanakh is the scripture that is mentioned in the NT-- they had no other scripture.

[Staashi 371]

But, if Jesus is the SON and not God that would allow God as a whole to stay in heaven while this was going on. Also.... if Jesus is GOD and not a separate divine being, why does he pray to himself?

To me it makes sense that Jesus was not a divine being, but a beloved prophet of God. Generally, I believe the same that Muslims believe when it comes to Jesus. I believe he was a prophet of God with no claim to divinity. I believe that when Judas was taking the Romans over to take Jesus, God took Jesus and made Judas appear as if he was Jesus (Judas became the victim of his own betrayal). The Qur'an says that God made it appear to the people that they had killed Jesus. But really, God took Jesus up to heaven to await the time when he would come back to earth and fight the antichrist.

Actually, Jesus prayed to God - the best example of this is through the Lord's Prayer - he refered to Him as Our Father.

I don't understand the Qu'ran in this statement - God didn't make it appear that people had killed Jesus...Jesus DID die on the cross - it was through His divinity that He was resurrected. In the Nicene Creed we proclaim this:

For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate;

he suffered, died, and was buried.

On the third day he rose again

in fulfilment of the Scriptures;

he ascended into heaven

and is seated at the right hand of the Father.

He will come again in glory

to judge the living and the dead,

and His kingdom will have no end.

[Nasturtium 500]

This is where we start to get into questionable waters.

In order to believe the verses in the Bible, one needs to believe in the validity of the Bible, and the same for Qur'an.

Personally, It's .... difficult for me to believe the Holy Books because I can't trust humans. If they were indeed revealed by God at one point, I believe that was the word. However, I feel like the original word has been tampered with. So........yeah. Maybe all of this is a lost effort on my part.

That's pretty much what I was getting at. As far as tampering with the Tanakh, I have yet to find anyone be able to produce the proof in that... the NT has insertions which are pretty clearly identifiable and openly acknowledged. The Tanakh is the scripture that is mentioned in the NT-- they had no other scripture.

Actually, i should say the law and the prophets were scripture, the writings were present but not yet part of the tanakh proper. They used them, and that is why they have their own section.

[Nasturtium 500]

But, if Jesus is the SON and not God that would allow God as a whole to stay in heaven while this was going on. Also.... if Jesus is GOD and not a separate divine being, why does he pray to himself?

To me it makes sense that Jesus was not a divine being, but a beloved prophet of God. Generally, I believe the same that Muslims believe when it comes to Jesus. I believe he was a prophet of God with no claim to divinity. I believe that when Judas was taking the Romans over to take Jesus, God took Jesus and made Judas appear as if he was Jesus (Judas became the victim of his own betrayal). The Qur'an says that God made it appear to the people that they had killed Jesus. But really, God took Jesus up to heaven to await the time when he would come back to earth and fight the antichrist.

Actually, Jesus prayed to God - the best example of this is through the Lord's Prayer - he refered to Him as Our Father.

I don't understand the Qu'ran in this statement - God didn't make it appear that people had killed Jesus...Jesus DID die on the cross - it was through His divinity that He was resurrected. In the Nicene Creed we proclaim this:

For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate;

he suffered, died, and was buried.

On the third day he rose again

in fulfilment of the Scriptures;

he ascended into heaven

and is seated at the right hand of the Father.

He will come again in glory

to judge the living and the dead,

and His kingdom will have no end.

The L-rd's prayer was spoken in response to when the diciples asked Yeshua how they should pray.

The Qu'ran doesn't espouse the crucifixtion at all... Muslims don't believe Yeshua ever died. The crucifixtion was actually of another individual who subsituted for Yeshua, and if I remember correctly, this individual recieved some reward for doing so. So, there is also no resurrection. There is also no divinity. It is more of an Enoch/Elijah story.

Someone feel free to correct the above if it's wrong

Edited May 6, 2009 by julianna

[~PalmTreeGurl~ 154]

But, if Jesus is the SON and not God that would allow God as a whole to stay in heaven while this was going on. Also.... if Jesus is GOD and not a separate divine being, why does he pray to himself?

To me it makes sense that Jesus was not a divine being, but a beloved prophet of God. Generally, I believe the same that Muslims believe when it comes to Jesus. I believe he was a prophet of God with no claim to divinity. I believe that when Judas was taking the Romans over to take Jesus, God took Jesus and made Judas appear as if he was Jesus (Judas became the victim of his own betrayal). The Qur'an says that God made it appear to the people that they had killed Jesus. But really, God took Jesus up to heaven to await the time when he would come back to earth and fight the antichrist.

Actually, Jesus prayed to God - the best example of this is through the Lord's Prayer - he refered to Him as Our Father.

I don't understand the Qu'ran in this statement - God didn't make it appear that people had killed Jesus...Jesus DID die on the cross - it was through His divinity that He was resurrected. In the Nicene Creed we proclaim this:

For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate;

he suffered, died, and was buried.

On the third day he rose again

in fulfilment of the Scriptures;

he ascended into heaven

and is seated at the right hand of the Father.

He will come again in glory

to judge the living and the dead,

and His kingdom will have no end.

The L-rd's prayer was spoken in response to when the diciples asked Yeshua how they should pray.

The Qu'ran doesn't espouse the crucifixtion at all... Muslims don't believe Yeshua ever died. The crucifixtion was actually of another individual who subsituted for Yeshua, and if I remember correctly, this individual recieved some reward for doing so. So, there is also no resurrection. There is also no divinity. It is more of an Enoch/Elijah story.

Someone feel free to correct the above if it's wrong

Yah, your right, thats what they were talking about Judas. They believe GOD put Judas in JESUS' place. That is why I wrote earlier about Judas in Matthew. That verse clearly explained the 2 things that we believe. Jesus was crucified and Judas hanged himself.

Edited May 6, 2009 by TamaraLovesAdam

[doodlebugg 10]

The bottom line for me is the question "who were the authors of the four gospels?". I mean I don't just grab any old newspaper to read the news, I look at what it is, decide if it's slanted to the right or left, evaluate the author of a particular article and then make my own decision. I don't see enough questioning of who the authors are of the four gospels.

http://www.youtubeislam.com/video/5560/Who-wrote-the-Gospels

[sara..... 371]

The bottom line for me is the question "who were the authors of the four gospels?". I mean I don't just grab any old newspaper to read the news, I look at what it is, decide if it's slanted to the right or left, evaluate the author of a particular article and then make my own decision. I don't see enough questioning of who the authors are of the four gospels.

http://www.youtubeislam.com/video/5560/Who-wrote-the-Gospels

thanks for putting that link up i have seen him and listened to him before but this is the first time i have seen this one given explanation of this topic

sara

[~PalmTreeGurl~ 154]

from website http://www.biblehistory.com/links.htm

The New Testament is a collection of books about the life and times of Jesus and the events that happened to His early followers. The time of the writing of the New Testament books dates from after the crucifixion of Jesus to around the end of the first century, perhaps 45 to 95 A.D. The first four books are called the Gospels. The four authors take entirely different approaches in telling their story but share much overlapping information. The book written by Matthew begins with something very important to the Jews, that is establishing that Jesus, the Messiah, had the proper family blood line through the tribe of Judah. The book of Mark begins his Gospel when Jesus is already a grown man and just beginning His public ministry. Doctor Luke, a physician, writes with the careful detail of a man whose occupation trained him to be a careful observer. The doctor opens with the angel Gabriel visiting the yet-to-be father of John the Baptist. The Gospel of John takes us far back in time and informs us that the Word (Jesus Christ) was with God in the beginning.

my own note: each author was inspired by GOD and is evident by the writings of the Gospels, which were in fulfillment of the O.T.

[Sofiyya 1,687]

An interesting topic re Biblical history is how it was compiled. The History Channel broadcasts a documentary on the subject that I can recommend. http://shop.history.com/detail.php?p=72268

NEW YORK, Dec. 19 /PRNewswire/ -- When Jesus was a boy, did he kill

another child? Was Mary Magdalene a prostitute -- or an apostle? Did Cain

commit incest? Will there be an apocalypse or is this God's trick to scare us?

The answers to these questions aren't found in the Bible as we know it, but

they exist in scriptures banned when powerful leaders deemed them unacceptable

for reasons both political and religious. BANNED FROM THE BIBLE reveals some

of these alternative tales and examines why they were "too hot for

Christianity." The two-hour world premiere BANNED FROM THE BIBLE airs on

Christmas, Thursday, December 25 at 9 pm ET/PT.

The Life of Adam and Eve, The Book of Enoch, The Book of Jubilees, The

Infancy Gospel of Thomas, The Gospel of Mary, The Apocalypse of Peter...these

are just a few of the books that were left out of the Bible. The reasons why

they were excluded provide astonishing insight into the concerns of church

leaders and scholars responsible for spreading the faith an illuminating look

at early Christian and religious history.

One hundred and fifty years after the birth of Jesus, a man named Marcion

decided that a Christian Bible was needed to replace the Hebrew Bible. Church

leaders opposed Marcion's banning of the Hebrew books, but they did agree that

Christians should have a Bible to call their own. After Constantine the Great

converted to Christianity in the 4th century, a serious effort was made to

compile a Christian Bible, one that included both the Hebrew scriptures (the

Old Testament) and Christian manuscripts (the New Testament). It took another

40 years before a final list of New Testament books was officially canonized

by the church. Many of the most popular were excluded. Upon examination today,

many of these writings attempt to resolve inconsistencies and questions raised

from reading the Bible.

BANNED FROM THE BIBLE examines the stories in some of these books, how

they were rediscovered and what they might mean to us today. Included are:

* The Life of Adam and Eve: A more detailed story of creation than what

is found in Genesis, this book includes jealous angels, a more devious

serpent, and more information about Eve's fall from grace from her

point of view.

* The Book of Jubilees: This obscure Hebrew text offers an answer to a

question that has vexed Christians for centuries -- if Adam and Eve

only had sons, and if no other humans existed, who gave birth to

humanity? This text reveals that Adam and Eve had nine children and

that Cain's younger sister Awan became his wife. The idea that humanity

was born of incest would have been radical -- and heretical.

* The Book of Enoch: This scripture reads like a modern day action film,

telling of fallen angels, bloodthirsty giants, an earth that had become

home to an increasingly flawed humanity and a divine judgment to be

rendered though denied a place in most Western Bibles; it has been used

for centuries by Ethiopian Christians. Large portions of this book were

found as part of the Dead Sea Scrolls.

* The Infancy Gospel of Thomas: The only book that deals with young

Jesus, it indicates that Jesus was a strong-willed child who one

historian describes as "Dennis the Menace as God." The book reveals

that at age five, Jesus may have killed a boy by pushing push him off a

roof and then resurrected him. Perhaps too disturbing for inclusion in

the Bible, this book seems to contain traditions, also known to the

Koran.

* The Protovangelion of James: This book offers details of the life of

the Virgin Mary, her parents, her birth and her youth, stories not

found in the New Testament Gospels but was beloved by many early

Christians.

* The Gospel of Mary: This Gnostic Text reveals that Mary Magdalene may

have been an apostle, perhaps even a leading apostle, not a prostitute.

While some texts in the Bible seem to deny women a voice in the

Christian community, this texts helps spark the debate about the role

of women in the church.

* The Gospel of Nicodemus: This is the story of Jesus's trial and

execution and his descent into hell. According to this gospel the

Savior asserts his power over Satan by freeing patriarchs such as Adam,

Isaiah and Abraham from Hell.

* The Apocalypse of Peter: Peter's apocalypse suggests that there is a

way out of punishment for evildoers and implies that the threat of the

apocalypse is a way for God to scare people into living a moral life,

and committing fewer sins.

These books are just a sampling of the hundreds that were never included

in the Holy Bible. Perhaps there are more to be found. Whether one believes

these alternative stories or not, they do provide an interesting perspective

of the religious culture and propensities of the time.

BANNED FROM THE BIBLE features commentary from Bible experts and

historians including Marvin Meyer, PhD, Professor of Bible and Christian

Studies, Chapman University; Daniel Smith-Christopher, Ph.D, Professor of

Religious Studies, Bluffton College; Anthea Butler, Ph.D, Department of

Theological Studies Loyola Marymount University; and John Dominic Crossan,

Ph.D, Professor Emeritus, DePaul University.

Margaret Kim is the executive producer of BANNED FROM THE BIBLE for The

History Channel. BANNED FROM THE BIBLE was produced for The History Channel by

FilmRoos.

Now reaching 86 million Nielsen subscribers, The History Channel,®

"Where the Past Comes Alive,®" brings history to life in a powerful manner

and provides an inviting place where people experience history personally and

connect their own lives to the great lives and events of the past. The History

Channel received the prestigious Governor's award from the Academy of

Television Arts & Sciences for the network's "Save Our History®" campaign

dedicated to historic preservation and history education. The History Channel

web site is located at http://www.HistoryChannel.com.