The MENA "Let's discuss religion and our own personal belief" thread

[Nasturtium 500]

ok im really trying to understand this so plz correct me if im wrong, what separates Muslims and Christians for the most part is the believe in Jesus in the way that he was conceived and that fact that we do not believe he is God, and if he died on the cross and of course our believe in the prophet Muhammad (pbuh)

and what separates the different sectors of Christianity is the way baptism is understood?

sara

There is a lot which seperates Islam and Christianity. The texts are different, the stories are different, the nature of G-d is different, the nature of sin is different, the means of salvation is different, the morals overlap some and differ in other places (such as regarding lying), the required feasts are different, the nature of prophets are different.... what seperates Christians is tradition and interpretation basically... somewhat like thinking aout what is different between Shia and Sunni... Shia and Sunni start at the same, basic null hypothesis-- there is no other god but Allah and Mohammed is his messenger-- but then kind of start diverging. Then it gets more complicated as you mix in schools of thought and cultures, and then you know just because someone is a hanafi from Jordan he may find out he has more in common with a Shia from Iran than a Malaki in Morocco-- it beigns to fall out to personal belief and labeling. A hallmark example is where protestants will discuss the idea of intercessory prayer with the dead (which is linked to the medieval belief that the dead are with you and haunt you, saints are extraordinary dead people and can haunt anyone, thus you can contact them without being a relative, even though contact with the dead is forbidden in the Bible )as being a Catholic belief. Not all Catholics pray this way though, some pray only in the name of G-d and intercede with no one other than (living) friends and family. In this case, a fundamentalist baptist would have more in common with a catholic of such belief than of another fellow baptist who proclaimed the idea that they felt Jesus is not the only way to heaven. Sometimes, it's not the label but you need to figure out what is the content of belief-- we have labels to make it easier on us though.

[Nasturtium 500]

I'll ask another question. In the church I was in we were only to bring the King James Version of the Bible there and nothing else was acceptable. Why do you think there are so many interpretations of the Bible? You can pick up several different ones and interpret the meanings differently by their explanations.

There are a few differences which are totally in the open and notable-- such as the verse insertions by Council of Nicea and KJV (which are mostly removed from all modern printings of KJV)...the "versions" of the bible have to do with translation. Anyone who speaks more than one language knows translation is subjective. There is never a one to one for languages... so... thus you get translation differences. If you are refering to doctrinal differences, that has to do with the particular study that person wishes to go through. Commentary is just scholarly input about possible meanings. That's how you get things like the Ryrie Study Bible, etc. That aprticular author is giving his annotations.

[sandinista! 1,816]

"What separates Muslims and Christians for the most part is the believe in Jesus in the way that he was conceived" Sara

The way that Jesus was conceived (or the 'Immaculate Conception') also separates Christians, most notably Catholics.

i'm not sure i understand what you mean, or what sara means.

muslims most assuredly believe in the virginal conception of jesus. the utter majority of mainstream christians, whether catholic or protestant also believe in the virginal conception of jesus. there are groups who do not adhere to that belief, but they are not the majority, and do not fall along the lines of catholic vs protestant etc. when it comes to embracing or disavowing that belief.

i don't know what sara meant when she said that what separates muslims and christians is the manner of jesus' conception. the nature of jesus, absolutely. but not his virginal conception.

Not to mention that the immaculate conception refers to Mary's (ra) conception, and not Jesus' (as).

exactly! i have no idea where the 4th and 5th paragraphs of my post went. down the rabbit hole i suppose.

[Nasturtium 500]

In the original languages the Qur'an and Bible were written in, the use of plural most likely makes sense (grammar wise). When it gets turned into English the plural confuses the readers.

That is how I've understood it.

I have also had Christians explain it to me the way you just explained it (The trinity).

It's confusing to me how we can all find what we want in other texts and beliefs.

The plural or singular used in the English translations has to do with what is the original Hebrew word used. If it's Elohim (which is plural) then they use a we/us/our depending on the case. if it is singular (Adonai, etc) then they use a He/Him/His/etc. This is the same as what is denoted by L-rd, G-d, etc. Adonai is used if L-rd is capitolized either by first letter or entire word. Elohim is for G-d if it is capitolized in whole or part. YHVH is used if it is I AM or sometimes G-d...

[Nasturtium 500]

also, the verse nagishkaw cites carries very different meaning for jews using the same text but having a different belief system. the traditional Jewish interpretation here is "wind," as "spirit" would imply a living supernatural presence co-extent with yet separate from God at Creation. This, however, is the sense in which rûach was understood by the early Christian church in developing the doctrine of the Trinity, in which this passage plays a central role. Most English translations render this phrase as "the Spirit of God." obviously for them, there's no trinity being hinted at there.

Yes, Ruach has two meanings as you mentioned... if it's used in pair with HaKodesh though, it is the Spirit of G-d. G-d is a spirit, so it becomes another name-- example is here:

"Ruach HaKodesh": "the Divine Spirit; as in "Sefer Tehilim nichtav beRuach HaKodesh" "The Book of Psalms was written with the inspiration of the Divine Spirit"

The Ruach HaKodesh works as a kind of inspiration in traditional literature, inspires prophecy, writing, etc. It's like being inspired by the Spirit of G-d.

[Nasturtium 500]

Julianna Happy to see you around.

I have come to post a novel I also am procrastinating an assignment.

another huge bone of contention between catholics and protestants is transubstantiation. the literal vs. the symbolic in the eucharist. for catholics, it is believed that there is a literal change in the substance of bread and wine into the body and blood of christ. protestants believe that it is merely symbolic.

I should just read your posts before I post LOL.

what i meant had nothing to do with his virginal conception, i mean that i can not accept that God is the father of Jesus, so there for its hard for me as a Muslim to believe that Jesus is the son of God.

I believe that God created Jesus.

I do ask that you have patience with me as English is not my first language so if i just blurt something out and think that everyone will understand what i mean im sorry.

sara

It's not a son like you would make a son physically... it's a deference to relationship. They are the same.

[catknit 144]

I think for the Muslims in the group explaining the different denominations in the Protestant side of the church falls under similar terrain as the 4 jurists in Islam - the big difference being we slap a specific name over the door. Typically, within a specific denomination, having whichever name it is [baptist, Lutheran, Methodist, etc] means you have a pretty good idea what is going on during services, how the church is run, etc.

Many denominations will splinter off due to a disagreement - whether it be on doctrine or the in and outs of running the church. I think the Alliance Church mutated out of the Presbyterian Church - that the Methodists came from an Anglican tradition...it's all somewhat messy. Generally speaking, the protestant churches are either named for the theologian whose teachings they follow [Lutheran = Luther, Calvinists - Calvin] or some aspect of their doctrine/church running style/divine inspiration [Pentecostals, Presbyterian, Methodists].

Having held numerous offices/taught Sunday school/ etc - I can tell you allllllllll about the polity in the Presbyterian church but to keep it short and so you can see the differences between the Catholic list and the Lutheran list here are the high lights;

Presbyterians do not believe in the transubstaniation. We have what's called the table of fellowship for performing communion - not an alter - we do not believe anything is being sacrificed; all is being done in remembrance of the last supper only. Anyone baptized in the Christian church is welcome to participate. We believe in only 1 baptism - if you switch teams [for lack of a better word] no need to re-baptize. Prebyterians are BIG on grace - BIG - we believe that good/charitable actions in the here and now are nice but only by the grace of God will you go to heaven. We also are huge on predestination. We believe God is all knowing - past, present, future - your path is there and you have free will - but He knows where you're going and what you're doing now, the remainder of today, and tomorrow, and it's all been laid out.

The egg trinity explanation I've never heard before. We were taught with the water phases - steam, liquid water, and ice are all the same substance, just different presentations of the same substance...

[Staashi 371]

First and foremost, excellent posts Julianna! Second, love the dialogue - always good to see people asking questions without slinging ####### allover the place.

One of the issues with the differences between Catholics and Protestants is the issue of the Blessed Mother - Catholics believe that Mary is ever virgin, meaning she never had sexual relations with Joseph. Many Protestants on the other hand believe that Mary and Joseph procreated after the birth of Jesus and that they had children. Also, Catholics venerate Mary - Protestants just see her as a woman of God, who just so happened to be the mother of Jesus.

[sandinista! 1,816]

also, the verse nagishkaw cites carries very different meaning for jews using the same text but having a different belief system. the traditional Jewish interpretation here is "wind," as "spirit" would imply a living supernatural presence co-extent with yet separate from God at Creation. This, however, is the sense in which rûach was understood by the early Christian church in developing the doctrine of the Trinity, in which this passage plays a central role. Most English translations render this phrase as "the Spirit of God." obviously for them, there's no trinity being hinted at there.

Yes, Ruach has two meanings as you mentioned... if it's used in pair with HaKodesh though, it is the Spirit of G-d. G-d is a spirit, so it becomes another name-- example is here:

"Ruach HaKodesh": "the Divine Spirit; as in "Sefer Tehilim nichtav beRuach HaKodesh" "The Book of Psalms was written with the inspiration of the Divine Spirit"

The Ruach HaKodesh works as a kind of inspiration in traditional literature, inspires prophecy, writing, etc. It's like being inspired by the Spirit of G-d.

interesting. how does that work then in your beliefs-is that considered part of the trinity? how is that concept understood in judaism that rejects any and all notions of there being a trinity?

[Nasturtium 500]

Ok, so my husband and I have a question!

In the Bible, there is the Old Testament and the New Testament. The only part of the Bible that Jewish people believe in, is the Old Testament... Do you know of a place in the Old Testament that speaks of the coming of Christ. If there is a place that does, why dont Jewish people believe that Jesus was the son of God or in New Testament?

What are the core differences between Judaism and Christianity?

Sorry if this is phrased poorly, it isn't meant to offend. Hopefully a Jewish person can help shed some light on this for us!

Thanks!!

I'm getting kinda tired so i'm going to cut and paste all the verses. pay no attention to the differing formats. Here are messianic prophetic verses from the Tanakh:

Proverbs 30:4 - Who has gone up to heaven and come down? Who has cupped the wind in the palms of his hands? Who has wrapped up the waters in his cloak? Who established all the ends of the earth? What is his name, and what is his son's name? Surely you know!

Micah 5:2 - But you, Beit-Lechem near Efrat, so small among the clans of Y'hudah, out of you will come forth to me the future ruler of Isra'el, whose origins are far in the past, back in ancient times.

Jeremiah 23: 5 "The days are coming," says ADONAI when I will raise a righteous Branch for David. He will reign as king and succeed, he will do what is just and right in the land. 6 In his days Y'hudah will be saved, Isra'el will live in safety, and the name given to him will be ADONAI TZIDKENU [ADONAI our righteousness].

Isaiah 7:14 Therefore ADONAI himself will give you people a sign; the young woman will become pregnant, bear a son and name him 'Immanu El [God is with us]. (The word "Immanu El" is repeated in Isaiah 8:8.) (traditional jews argue that alma means a young girl not virgin, although it's like our word maiden-- it can refer to both and implies a virginity-- also a young girl giving birth is hardly a prophecy, i think that happens thousands of times per day. )

Isaiah 9: 6 For a child is born to us, a son is given to us; dominion will rest on his shoulders, and he will be given the name Pele-Yo'etz El Gibbor Avi'Ad Sar-Shalom [Wonder of a Counselor, Mighty God, Father of Eternity, Prince of Peace], 7 in order to extend the dominion and perpetuate the peace of the throne and kingdom of David, to secure it and sustain it through justice and righteousness henceforth and forever. The zeal of ADONAI-Tva'ot will accomplish this.

Malachi 4:2 - But to you who fear my name the sun of righteousness will rise with healing in its wings...." (this is the prophecy of tzit-tzit-- that a Messiah will be able to heal)

Zechariah 9:9 Rejoice with all your heart, daughter of Tziyon! Shout out loud, daughter of Yerushalayim! Look! Your king is coming to you. He is righteous, and he is victorious. Yet he is humble - he's riding on a donkey, yes, on a lowly donkey's colt.

Daniel 9:25 - Know, therefore, and discern that seven weeks [of years] will elapse between the issuing of the decree to restore and rebuild Yerushalayim until an anointed prince comes... (this refers to the restoration of the City-- it was in this exact timing that Yeshua allowed Himself to be publically declared as Messiah)

Daniel 9:26 - Then, after the sixty-two weeks, Mashiach will be cut off and have nothing. The people of a prince yet to come will destroy the city and the sanctuary, but his end will come with a flood, and desolations are decreed until the war is over.

Therefore thus says the Lord GOD: "Behold, I lay in Zion a stone for a foundation, a tried stone, a precious cornerstone, a sure foundation; whoever believes will not act hastily." (Isa 28:16)

The stone which the builders rejected has become the chief cornerstone. This was the LORD'S doing; it is marvelous in our eyes. (Ps 118:22-23)

Then I said to them, “If it is agreeable to you, give me my wages; and if not, refrain.” So they weight out for my wages 30 pieces of silver. And the LORD said to me, “Throw it to the potter” "- that princely price they set on me. So I took the thirty pieces of silver and threw them into the house of the LORD for the potter. (Zech 11:12-13)

Even my own familiar friend in whom I trusted, who ate my bread, has lifted up his heel against me. (Ps 41:9)

He will not cry out, no raise His voice, nor cause His voice to be heard in the street. A bruised reed He will not break, and smoking flax He will not quench; He will bring forth justice for truth. (Isa 42:2-3)

I gave my My back to those who struck Me, and My cheeks to those who plucked out the beard; I did not hide My face from shame and spitting. (Is 50:6)

They pierced My hands and my feet. (Ps 22:16)

And I will pour on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem the Spirit of grace and supplication; then they will look on Me whom they have pierced. Yes, they will mourn for Him as one mourns for his only son, and grieve for Him as one grieves for a firstborn. (Zech 12:10)

They divide My garments among them, and for My clothing they cast lots. (Ps 22:18)

They also gave me gall for my food, and for my thirst they gave me vinegar to drink. (Ps 69:21)

In one house [the Passover lamb] shall be eaten... nor shall you break one of its bones. (Ex 12:46)

Many are the afflictions of the righteous, but the LORD delivers him out of them all. He guards all his bones; not one of them is broken. (Ps 34:20)

For You will not leave my soul in Sheol, nor will You allow Your Holy One to see corruption. (Ps 16:10)

You have ascended on high, you have led captivity captive; you have received gifts among men, even from the rebellious, that the LORD God might dwell there. (Ps 68:18)

From the going forth of the command to restore and build Jerusalem until Messiah the Prince, there shall be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks... And after the sixty-two weeks Messiah shall be cut off, but not for Himself; And the people of the prince who is to come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary. (Dan 9:25-26)

The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon Me, because the LORD has anointed Me to preach good tidings to the poor; he has sent Me to heal the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to those who are bound; to proclaim the acceptable year of the Lord, and the day of vengeance of our God.” (Isa 61:1-2)

Why do the nations rage, and the people plot a vain thing? The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against the LORD and against His Anointed One... “Yet I have set My King on my holy hill of Zion. I will declare the decree: the LORD has said to Me, ‘You are My Son, today I have begotten You. Ask of Me, and I will give You the nations for Your inheritance, and the ends of the earth for Your possession. Kiss the Son, lest He be angry, and you perish in the way... (Ps 2)

“But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, though you are little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of you shall come forth to Me the One to be Ruler in Israel, whose goings forth are from of old, from everlasting.” (Mic 5:2)

He is despised and rejected by men, A Man of sorrows and acquainted with grief. And we hid, as it were, our faces from Him; He was despised, and we did not esteem Him. (Isa 53:3)

The Exalted Servant (Isaiah 52)

13Behold, My (AB)servant will prosper,

He will be high and lifted up and greatly (AC)exalted.

14Just as many were astonished at you, My people,

So His (AD)appearance was marred more than any man

And His form more than the sons of men.

15Thus He will (AE)sprinkle many nations,

Kings will (AF)shut their mouths on account of Him;

For (AG)what had not been told them they will see,

And what they had not heard they will understand.

Isaiah 53

The Suffering Servant

1(AH)Who has believed our message?

And to whom has the arm of the LORD been revealed?

2For He grew up before Him like a (AI)tender shoot,

And like a root out of parched ground;

He has (AJ)no stately form or majesty

That we should look upon Him,

Nor appearance that we should [a]be attracted to Him.

3He was (AK)despised and forsaken of men,

A man of sorrows and (AL)acquainted with grief;

And like one from whom men hide their face

He was (AM)despised, and we did not (AN)esteem Him.

4Surely our griefs He Himself (AO)bore,

And our sorrows He carried;

Yet we ourselves esteemed Him stricken,

Smitten of (AP)God, and afflicted.

5But He was [c]pierced through for (AQ)our transgressions,

He was crushed for (AR)our iniquities;

The (AS)chastening for our well-being fell upon Him,

And by (AT)His scourging we are healed.

6All of us like sheep have gone astray,

Each of us has turned to his own way;

But the LORD has caused the iniquity of us all

To fall on Him.

7He was oppressed and He was afflicted,

Yet He did not (AU)open His mouth;

(AV)Like a lamb that is led to slaughter,

And like a sheep that is silent before its shearers,

So He did not open His mouth.

8By oppression and judgment He was taken away;

And as for His generation, who considered

That He was cut off out of the land of the living

(AW)For the transgression of my people, to whom the stroke was due?

9His grave was assigned with wicked men,

Yet He was with a (AX)rich man in His death,

(AY)Because He had (AZ)done no violence,

Nor was there any deceit in His mouth.

10But the LORD was pleased

To (BA)crush Him, (BB)putting Him to grief;

If He would render Himself as a guilt (BC)offering,

He will see (BD)His offspring,

He will prolong His days,

And the good (BE)pleasure of the LORD will prosper in His hand.

11As a result of the anguish of His soul,

He will (BF)see it and be satisfied;

By His (BG)knowledge the Righteous One,

My Servant, will justify the many,

As He will (BH)bear their iniquities.

12Therefore, I will allot Him a (BI)portion with the great,

And He will divide the booty with the strong;

Because He poured out (BJ)Himself to death,

And was (BK)numbered with the transgressors;

Yet He Himself (BL)bore the sin of many,

And interceded for the transgressors.

And I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your seed and her Seed; He shall bruise your head, and you shall bruise His heel. (Gen 3:15)

The scepter shall not depart from Judah, nor a lawgiver from between his feet, until Shiloh comes; and to Him shall be the obedience of the people. (Gen 49:10)

I see Him, but not now; I behold Him, but not near; A Star shall come out of Jacob; a Scepter shall rise out of Israel… Out of Jacob One shall have dominion, and destroy the remains of the city. (Num 24:17-19)

“But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, though you are little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of you shall come forth to Me the One to be Ruler in Israel, whose goings forth are from of old, from everlasting.” (Mic 5:2)

In the former time he brought into contempt the land of Zebulun and the land of Naphtali, but in the latter time he will make glorious the way of the sea, the land beyond the Jordan, Galilee of the Gentiles. The people who walked in darkness have seen a great light; those who dwelt in the land of the shadow of death, upon them a light has shined. (Isa 9:1-2)

Then the eyes of the blind shall be opened, and the ears of the deaf shall be unstopped. Then the lame shall leap like a deer, and the tongue of the dumb sing. For waters shall burst forth in the wilderness, and streams in the desert. (Isa 35:5-6)

And in that day there shall be a Root of Jesse, who shall stand as a banner to the people; for the Gentiles shall seek Him, and His resting place shall be glorious. (Isa 11:10)

It is too small a thing that You should be My Servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the preserved ones of Israel; I will also give You as a light to the Gentiles, that You should be My salvation to the ends of the earth. (Isa 49:6, see also Isa 42:1,6)

As far as why would people who believe in Yeshua as Moshiach think Jews don't recognize Him: refer to the above of Isaiah 53. it specifically says they will not recognize Him corporately, which then ties to the corporate recognition which brings in the Messianic kingdom (this is agreed upon between Jews and Christians-- a coporate recognition event).

The Jewish position is complex, but is fairly well covered in this link:

http://www.simpletoremember.com/articles/a/jewsandjesus/

I could argue it out but I think that more or less answers your basic question. As to why their position doesn't work for ME, it has to do with the mixing of tradition (lots on the Christian side, some on the Jewish side) and polemics.

First and foremost, excellent posts Julianna! Second, love the dialogue - always good to see people asking questions without slinging ####### allover the place.

One of the issues with the differences between Catholics and Protestants is the issue of the Blessed Mother - Catholics believe that Mary is ever virgin, meaning she never had sexual relations with Joseph. Many Protestants on the other hand believe that Mary and Joseph procreated after the birth of Jesus and that they had children. Also, Catholics venerate Mary - Protestants just see her as a woman of God, who just so happened to be the mother of Jesus.

Correct, and the protestant belief is because of the verses which discuss his brothers by the title of brother (as opposed to his diciples which are under another title).

[Nasturtium 500]

also, the verse nagishkaw cites carries very different meaning for jews using the same text but having a different belief system. the traditional Jewish interpretation here is "wind," as "spirit" would imply a living supernatural presence co-extent with yet separate from God at Creation. This, however, is the sense in which rûach was understood by the early Christian church in developing the doctrine of the Trinity, in which this passage plays a central role. Most English translations render this phrase as "the Spirit of God." obviously for them, there's no trinity being hinted at there.

Yes, Ruach has two meanings as you mentioned... if it's used in pair with HaKodesh though, it is the Spirit of G-d. G-d is a spirit, so it becomes another name-- example is here:

"Ruach HaKodesh": "the Divine Spirit; as in "Sefer Tehilim nichtav beRuach HaKodesh" "The Book of Psalms was written with the inspiration of the Divine Spirit"

The Ruach HaKodesh works as a kind of inspiration in traditional literature: inspires prophecy, writing, etc. It's like being inspired by the Spirit of G-d.

interesting. how does that work then in your beliefs-is that considered part of the trinity? how is that concept understood in judaism that rejects any and all notions of there being a trinity?

I should have used a colon after traditional literature.

Anyway, that is the traditional Jewish POV given up there as opposed to traditions of the Church. DFor me yes, it's part of the trinity.

Honestly, my personal beliefs are more unified than the Roman position. This may be long and windy as an explanation. The Christian POV about the trinity is hardly unified (play on words intended). It ranges from thinly veiled polytheism to a near-unitarianism.

I'm the far latter. I have a spirit, I *am* a spirit. i just can't do anything in particular with my spirit at the moment other than travel around physically. (i'm fairly sure this idea somewhat jives with islam-- you have a spirit, a soul, and it's not tied inherently to your physical body as it existed before and after your death as far as I understood the Muslim beliefs-- correct me if i am wrong, which is entirely possible).) The Spirit of G-d is G-d. G-d is omnipresent, which is seperate in possibility from us as humans with a limited capability and spirit. So G-d can be with you, ie send the Ruach haKodesh (in the traditional Christian structure of belief) but Himself not be right there in full manifestation (because you would die). In the same way, Yeshua always existed-- as a Spirit, the Spirit of G-d, the Word, the Angel of the L-rd... it is a unified one, like a compound eye lens being ONE eye lens. He had to empty Himself (as is mentioned) in order to not purify and kill the flesh in which He existed. This is placing Himself in a servant's role. When He says to pray in His name, the example He gives is to pray to Adonai-- in the name of Adonai. So, there's just G-d. The nature and workings of G-d are as they are, but there isn't like 3 people having a party up there and you can be invited if you believe in the right rainbows and unicorns. That's polytheism

[Berber Mama 5]

I have a stupid question. Why do Jewish people write G-d (instead of God)???

[Nasturtium 500]

Oh, and one last thing-- a major Jewish contention is that Christians violate the laws of G-d. G-d states in the Tanakh several "everlasting" commandments. Christians, for the most part, disregard these and have (for some reason) decided everlating is over. Christians also perpetually misunderstand the purpose of the covenants, the Law, and grace. Grace is how you are saved in the Tanakh. Grace, is not something "new." The Law is not how one is saved at all, ever, and no Jew is ever confused about that. The basic idea is simple: through faith, you are saved. Through faith you sumbit yourself to G-d in obedience (the Law). It begins with Faithfulness to G-d. Avraham was not counted righteous by his works, but by his faithfulness. No one was ever saved by observing the law, but by their faithfulness to G-d. The NT doesn't teach against the law, but tradition does. The point being, Jews are very well familiar with the commandments of G-d and they know when they are being violated. Christians are often considering themselves to be familiar with the person of G-d, and place lesser importance on the commandments.

[Nasturtium 500]

I have a stupid question. Why do Jewish people write G-d (instead of God)???

It is in deference to the holiness of G-d and in the commandment of not taking the L-rd's name in vain. G-d has a real name. you don't write out God because you are refering to the idea that you don't want to deface the name of G-d, which isn't G-d, of course, but it is a reminder. In the same way you often do not write out the other titles in completeness, although sometimes you do. I wrote out some in the above because otherwise there could be confusion. I don't think anyone is confused about what G-d is. Yet, if I wrote HSHM or something similar instead of HaShem people may not know of Whom I am speaking. in the same way I wrote out the initials of the Name, although ususally they are not written out, and if they are they may be altered to be something like YHWH (there is no W in the Hebrew language-- so you will not accidentally say the Name).

[Leyla 0]

I just thought of a question. This is a question for Christians.

I grew up in the Catholic Church, now I don't really adhere to a religion. I've studied religion and I don't really understand why Christians believe Jesus is the son of God. I know this is a staple of faith in Christianity and I don't mean to offend. Bible and I just don't find where it states that Jesus is the son of God.

Hi Leyla,

The Bible states several times that Yeshua is Son of G-d, but also Yeshua states it Himself. You just have to know the Torah and Tanakh to see His references.

The Bible states it here:

"For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of G-d." Romans 3:23

"Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of G-d." John3:5

"For G-d so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son, that whosoever believes in him shall not perish but have everlasting life. For G-d sent not his son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved." John 3:16, 17

"If you shall confess with your mouth the L-rd Yeshua (Jesus), and shall believe in your heart that G-d has raised him from the dead, you shall be saved." Romans 10:9

"Whosoever shall confess that Yeshua (Jesus) is the Son of G-d, G-d dwells in Him and he in G-d." 1 John 4:15

"For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of G-d is eternal life through Yeshua (Jesus) Messiah our L-rd." Romans 6:23

"And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory." 1 Timothy 3:16

"looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Messiah Yeshua," Titus 2:13

"Simon Peter, a bond-servant and apostle of Yeshua Messiah, To those who have received a faith of the same kind as ours, by the righteousness of our God and Savior, Yeshua Messiah:" 2 Peter 1:1

"And I will kill her children with pestilence, and all the churches will know that I am He who searches the minds and hearts; and I will give to each one of you according to your deeds." Revelation 2:23

"who will transform the body of our humble state into conformity with the body of His glory, by the exertion of the power that He has even to subject all things to Himself." Philippians 3:21

"And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature, and upholds all things by the word of His power. When He had made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high," Hebrews 1:3

"Yeshua Messiah is the same yesterday and today and forever." Hebrews 13:8 (reference to Malachai 3:6: " For I am the L-rd, I change not."

"For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form," Colossians 2:9

"And those who were in the boat worshiped Him, saying, 'You are certainly God’s Son!'" Matthew 14:33

^^ a couple of examples... then examples of what He said Himself:

"I and the Father are One." (John 10:30) (fairly self-explanatory)

"Truly truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM." (John 8:58)

"Now Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was." (John 17:5) (pre-existence to creation-- G-d)

"Where two or three have gathered in My name, I am in their midst." (Matt 18:20) (omnipresence)

"For just as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, even so the Son gives life to whom He wishes." (John 5:21)

"For not even the Father judges anyone, but He has given all judgement to the Son." (John 5:22)

"Son, your sins are forgiven." (Mark 2:5) (Only G-d can forgive sins)

"That you may know that the Son of Man has power on Earth to forgive sins." Matt 9:6

"Him that has Power to give out Healing Power and Power over Death to His followers." Matt 10:8

"The Son of Man is L-rd even of the Sabbath Day" Matt 12:8

"The Son of Man shall send forth HIS ANGELS and they shall gather out of His kingdom all things that offend ... and shall cast them into a furnace, ... then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father" Matt 13:41-43

"Simon Peter answered, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God." Jesus replied, "Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by man, but by my Father in heaven." Matt 16:16-17

"When the Son of Man shall come in His glory and all the holy angels with Him, then shall He sit upon the throne of His glory and before Him shall be gathered all nations, and He shall separate them ...." Matt 25:31

"No man has ascended up to Heaven but He that came down from heaven even the Son of Man which is in heaven" John 3:13

"All men should honor the Son even as they honor the Father. He that does not honor the Son, does not honor the Father." John 5:23

"For I came down from heaven ..." John 6:38

"I am the Bread of Life ...." John 6:35 (a reference to the temple bread)

"You are from beneath, I am from above - I am not of this world." John 8:23

"What if you shall see the Son of Man ascend up where He was before?" John 6:62

"No man takes (My Life) from Me. I lay it down of Myself. I have Power to lay it down and I have the power to take it up again!" - John 10:18

"If you had known Me, You would have known My Father also: and from henceforth you Know Him and have seen Him." John 14:7

"I am the Alpha and the Omega (Alef and Tav), the Beginning and the End" Revelation 1:8

"Don't you believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in Me?" John 14:10,11

^^^ etc.... this is a pretty decent sampling of His claims, including prophetic claims.

I suppose a follow up question is: Assuming Jesus is the son of God, why do we need a mangod to die for our sins? and what does that mean?

Leyla, honestly I don't think the majority of Christians have any real clue why Yeshua had to die-- especially as evidenced by the pograms, etc against the "Jesus killers" If they really knew, and understoodf, you wouldn't get this kind of reaction. it's not too complicated, but it involves stripping away of man-made traditions which directly contradict the Bible. You can get to the answer and He even says who He is, but in an effort to fulfill Daniel's prophecy of replacing the L-rd's appointed times and places with their own (unknowingly I guess), they succeeded...

From the beginning, it is apparent that the wages of sin are death-- the penalty is death. Sins can only be covered in blood. When Adam and Eve sin, their sins are covered in blood-- the goat skins. G-d covered them. This begins the long sacrifices. The sacrifices are imperfect though-- animal blood can only cover the sins for which it is sacrificed. An animal is an imperfect solution. In order to stop the cycle of imperfect solutions, there has to be a perfect sacrifice. the only perfect thing is G-d. G-d promised a Messiah, and He provides.

This is a basic G-d deal. Abraham is one notable G-d deal-- when Avram made a covenant with G-d (and thus took on a portion of His name as did Sarai-- the last "hay" (ה) of G-d's name becoming Avraham and Sarah to show their bond), G-d caused Avram to sleep and not be involved in the deal-- because Avram would, basically, screw it up. It was a one-sided covenant. This is also a one-sided covenant. Our responsibility is faithfulness, He does everything else.

So, back to Messiah. In order to cover sins, G-d needs a perfect sacrifice. The only perfect thing in existence is G-d. So, only G-d can attone for the sins of creation. It must be a G-d deal. This process is foretold in all of the feasts-- the story of the Messiah. Yeshua will fulfill all 7, but currently has done 4. The last 3 will be done at second coming. Yeshua is the unblemished lamb of passover (pesach). On teh 14th of Nissan, He was sacrificed. The feast of unleavened bread follows. One must hide the unleavened bread... and leaven represents sin. Yeshua was burried, and was without sin. The feast of first fruits (Reishit Katzir) is His resurection. The feast of Shavu'ot (also called pentacost because it occures after counting the omer, 50 days) is when He ascended into heaven and the Ruach is given (the Ruach HaKodesh, the Holy Spirit, is also in the Tanakh, by name, in case anyone thinks it's a new thing).

you can PM me if you have any questions

That was very informative.

I guess I have A LOT more questions.... but I am afraid it would turn into a discussion with the potential to get out of hand..

Here is one that might be safe. And a question Muslims asked me quite often: If Jesus is God, and God is the only perfect sacrifice, and Jesus was put on earth to be sacrificed for the sins of humans then ....... was God not in heaven during this period of time? (I know this is explained by the trinity but that confuses me too).

But, if Jesus is the SON and not God that would allow God as a whole to stay in heaven while this was going on. Also.... if Jesus is GOD and not a separate divine being, why does he pray to himself?

To me it makes sense that Jesus was not a divine being, but a beloved prophet of God. Generally, I believe the same that Muslims believe when it comes to Jesus. I believe he was a prophet of God with no claim to divinity. I believe that when Judas was taking the Romans over to take Jesus, God took Jesus and made Judas appear as if he was Jesus (Judas became the victim of his own betrayal). The Qur'an says that God made it appear to the people that they had killed Jesus. But really, God took Jesus up to heaven to await the time when he would come back to earth and fight the antichrist.

Soooo yeah.... maybe a PM would be better. Or even a phone call because this can get very confusing for me.