picking my belorussian up on monday...

[WalkonWildSide 0]

Most folks I've met who were born prior to '91 say Russia, regardless of which country they're actually from.

Da, she doesn't mind if I call her Russian, and her friend Olga is from Ukraine and I can't call her Russian. She's Ukrainian. Everyone's a little picky about the subject.

I never tell people what my ancestry is, considering I have no idea what it is. I think it is the oddest question. I am American, not Irish-American or German-American. USA has been a country long enough that we can call ourselves Americans and make claims to our European hertiage anymore.

[eekee 182]

People in my (Belarusian) family get very offended if you say they're Russian. Sometimes I say that my mom is a Russian speaker just to make things easier, and she does understand Russian and all, but she is definitely Belarusian. And according to Russians, I am VERY visibly ethnically Belarusian. It also took a long time for my mom to come around to the fact that I have a life in Russia and with Russians, and not for the usual American parent reasons, either. It was because, in a strongly nationalistic, anti-Soviet family, she was raised to believe that Russians were evil, evil people.

It's generally an East/West thing. People from Eastern Ukraine and Eastern Belarus are more likely to be Russian speakers and identify with Russians, whereas people from Western Ukraine and Western Belarus tend to be more nationalistic and speak Ukrainian or Belarusian. But I think in Belarus today it's all Russified for the most part.

And even though I am only one-half Belarusian, I was raised differently enough to consider myself Belarusian-American. My family far more closely resembles a Russian or Belarusian family than an American one.

Edited May 7, 2009 by eekee

[Brad and Vika 129]

I find that here in my city there is a difference in outlook that is both age and time of immigration related. Most of the Russian speaking folks that have been here more than twenty years are Jewish, and they were also Soviet citizens. They call themselves "Russian" regardless of their country of origin. The newer, younger Russian speakers identify much more closely with their home country, and definitely do not want to be characterized as Russian (if they aren't from Russia).

[eekee 182]

I find that here in my city there is a difference in outlook that is both age and time of immigration related. Most of the Russian speaking folks that have been here more than twenty years are Jewish, and they were also Soviet citizens. They call themselves "Russian" regardless of their country of origin. The newer, younger Russian speakers identify much more closely with their home country, and definitely do not want to be characterized as Russian (if they aren't from Russia).

I think a lot of it has to do with anti-semitism in Belarus and Ukraine. One of my friends is my age and was born in (a Russian-speaking) part of Ukraine and immigrated when she was quite little, and she considers herself Russian because she considers Ukrainians stupid anti-semites. :/

[peejay 327]

I find that here in my city there is a difference in outlook that is both age and time of immigration related. Most of the Russian speaking folks that have been here more than twenty years are Jewish, and they were also Soviet citizens. They call themselves "Russian" regardless of their country of origin. The newer, younger Russian speakers identify much more closely with their home country, and definitely do not want to be characterized as Russian (if they aren't from Russia).

I think a lot of it has to do with anti-semitism in Belarus and Ukraine. One of my friends is my age and was born in (a Russian-speaking) part of Ukraine and immigrated when she was quite little, and she considers herself Russian because she considers Ukrainians stupid anti-semites. :/

Lots of interesting points of view.

My 23 year old stepdaughter was born in Belarus (in 1985 it was still the BSSR) to ethnic Russian parents. There was an aerodrome for the Soviet Air Force in Baranovichi, Belarus. Her dad was an officer transferred there and that is how my wife ended up in Belarus from Russian Siberia. My stepdaughter always refers to herself as being Russian even though she was born in Belarus. Ditto for my wife too. She preferred living in Belarus to Siberia and stayed there after divorcing her daughter's father. He went back to Siberia after the divorce. She took Belarusian citizenship after the USSR dissolved, but she is ethnic Russian. That was all too common back then as most took citizenship of their residency regardless of ethnicity. I see Uzbekis and Kazahks here in the USA that run the gamut of being Slavic Christians to Asiatic Muslims. They all mostly speak Russian and blend in with the FSU Russian speaking community here in Houston.

I am also 1/2 Belarusian blood from my mother. Both of my grandparents were born in Byelorussia (Belarus), but my mom and aunts were born in the USA. I am an American with a Scottish surname from my dad. My grandparents were both ethnic Byelorussians. They both had Byelorussian surnames and spoke both Byelorussian and Russian in addition to English after living in the USA over 50+ years. They were of the Russian Orthodox religion and married in that church. Interestingly there was and still is a Russian Orthodox church in Galveston, TX. They actually grew up in the same village in Byelorussia, but married here in the USA in that church.

I met my mom's relatives in Belarus many years ago and they run the gamut of having Ukrainian, Byelorussian, and Russian surnames. My cousins with Ukrainian surnames don't even speak Ukrainian as a primary language. They mostly speak Russian. They know some Byelorussian words, but are mostly Russified in the 21st century. My many trips to Belarus and Russia to visit my mom's relatives eventually culminated in meeting and marrying my Russian wife. Life has its twists and turns.

As for me, of course I consider myself 100% American. I know a lot of Russian and Byelorussian words, but I'm far from fluent in either language. In fact, I'm not fluent at all even after being raised around it most of my life. I live, work, and exist in the English speaking world. My wife and stepdaughter speak perfect English and I really have no incentive to learn Russian at 52 years old.

Interestingly, if I had to choose a hyphenated description of myself I would choose Byelorussian-American even though I have a Scottish surname. I was raised among my mom's parents at a young age and have the Slavic look. I identify more with that than a Scottish ancestory that I have no cultural attachment to.

As far as the story about the Ukrainians. My stepdaughter's boyfriend here in the USA is Ukrainian and they visited his parents there last year in 2008. Some Ukrainians definitely have issues with Russians. She told me stories that some restaurants and clubs will not serve Russian speakers. She said that some Ukrainians can be downright rude if you cannot speak Ukrainian to them. Byelorussians are pretty much Russified, but I have personally caught glimpses of some that have their prejudices toward ethnic Russians. Some of my relatives in Belarus would have preferred me to marry an ethnic Belarusian. Some of my Belarusian relatives are very proud and nationalistic Belarusians that love everything Belarusian. They are hardcore.

[eekee 182]

Our families sound quite similar, peejay, except that you and my mom are of the same generation. My grandparents tried to raise my mom with the idea that after the Soviet Union fell, they'd all go back to Belarus and it'd be awesome. So she had to go to Belarusian classes, dance in folk dance groups, and sing in the Belarusian choir. She was also told constantly that Americans were uncultured and she wasn't one of them. Their whole village came over together and settled in the same town, and made their own church (which goes under the Greek archdiocese since Russian hatred was so strong). My mom spent all of her time outside of school with other Belarusian kids, and in so many ways is very different from other American women her age.

There are plenty of Russians with Ukrainain surnames who are Russian and speak Russian--I don't think it means very much.

And again, in Ukraine, the Russian hatred is a Western (and current government) thing. In Eastern Ukraine, people speak Russian, although I believe there are official policies which discriminate against Russian speakers? (i.e., movies in theaters being shown in Ukrainian despite being in Russian-majority areas.) One of our Ukrainian Russian forumers should be able to confirm this, but that's the gossip I've heard.

[peejay 327]

Our families sound quite similar, peejay, except that you and my mom are of the same generation. My grandparents tried to raise my mom with the idea that after the Soviet Union fell, they'd all go back to Belarus and it'd be awesome. So she had to go to Belarusian classes, dance in folk dance groups, and sing in the Belarusian choir. She was also told constantly that Americans were uncultured and she wasn't one of them. Their whole village came over together and settled in the same town, and made their own church (which goes under the Greek archdiocese since Russian hatred was so strong). My mom spent all of her time outside of school with other Belarusian kids, and in so many ways is very different from other American women her age.

There are plenty of Russians with Ukrainain surnames who are Russian and speak Russian--I don't think it means very much.

And again, in Ukraine, the Russian hatred is a Western (and current government) thing. In Eastern Ukraine, people speak Russian, although I believe there are official policies which discriminate against Russian speakers? (i.e., movies in theaters being shown in Ukrainian despite being in Russian-majority areas.) One of our Ukrainian Russian forumers should be able to confirm this, but that's the gossip I've heard.

My grandfather came to Texas with my grandmother's brother and another Byelorussian man in 1910. My grandmother followed later in 1913. They all came by ship through the immigration quarantine station in Galveston, TX and eventually settled in rural Matagorda county. A lot of bad things happened in Byelorussia after they left. The Bolshevik Revolution, civil war, Stalinism, two world wars, Nazi occupation, The Cold War, etc. They never went back nor did they ever see their parents or siblings again. They wrote letters though. So my mom and aunts never were primed to go back there to visit or to live. So their story is a bit different. They worked really hard to assimilate and to become Americanized. Being from the USSR was not something they advertised in those days.

Anyway, here is a link and a photo you might find of interest. It is the Orthodox church in Galveston where my grandparents got married in 1915. It has an interesting history. I'll post some more old historical stuff I have when I have time to track it down on my computer.

http://www.orthodox.org/galveston/

[eekee 182]

Yeah, my family would *never* ever go to a Serbian/Russian Church.

Being from the USSR was also not something to advertise in the 1950s and 1960s, and I think that it was something that was really difficult for my mother growing up. I think it's only since I began learning Russian that she's come around on certain things.

Edited May 8, 2009 by eekee

[slim 1,525]

My many trips to Belarus and Russia to visit my mom's relatives eventually culminated in meeting and marrying my Russian wife.

I didn't know they did that in Texas too, I thought it was just an Appalachian thing!

[Brad and Vika 129]

I think a lot of it has to do with anti-semitism in Belarus and Ukraine. One of my friends is my age and was born in (a Russian-speaking) part of Ukraine and immigrated when she was quite little, and she considers herself Russian because she considers Ukrainians stupid anti-semites. :/

I agree about the anti-semitism, but disagree about that being any cause for a jew identifying himself as "Russian". I really think it is because they simply speak a common language. They do tend to refer to each other (amongst themselves) by their home city (but not country). That seems to be just a way of differentiation, i.e. "which Sveta, from Babrusk, or from Novgorod?".

On a related note, there does seem to be a great tendency in Belarus to continue to identify oneself as ethnic Russian, ancestry permitting. The russification you spoke of seems to cause a clear sense of identity preference for somehow being Russian. This is definitely not the case in Ukraine (even the Russian parts). In some cases there is almost an inferiority complex when comparing their country to Russia. This is in spite of a well developed sense of national pride - and I can't figure out the dichotomy, unless there is some state indoctrination towards ultranationalism in the education there. Your thoughts?

[eekee 182]

I think a lot of it has to do with anti-semitism in Belarus and Ukraine. One of my friends is my age and was born in (a Russian-speaking) part of Ukraine and immigrated when she was quite little, and she considers herself Russian because she considers Ukrainians stupid anti-semites. :/

I agree about the anti-semitism, but disagree about that being any cause for a jew identifying himself as "Russian". I really think it is because they simply speak a common language. They do tend to refer to each other (amongst themselves) by their home city (but not country). That seems to be just a way of differentiation, i.e. "which Sveta, from Babrusk, or from Novgorod?".

On a related note, there does seem to be a great tendency in Belarus to continue to identify oneself as ethnic Russian, ancestry permitting. The russification you spoke of seems to cause a clear sense of identity preference for somehow being Russian. This is definitely not the case in Ukraine (even the Russian parts). In some cases there is almost an inferiority complex when comparing their country to Russia. This is in spite of a well developed sense of national pride - and I can't figure out the dichotomy, unless there is some state indoctrination towards ultranationalism in the education there. Your thoughts?

The Russian Jews from Ukrainian cities that I know just call themselves Russian, and don't say that they're from Odessa or Crimea or whatever. They don't consider themselves Ukrainian at all. I suppose that "Ukrainian" is conisdered an entirely different ethnic group that they don't consider themselves a part of. (Of course, a lot of people are pissed that Crimea is a part of Ukraine anyway.) If you go to Brighton Beach, that's mostly Jews and it's known as Little Odessa By the Sea. But it's considered a Russian neighborhood, not a Ukrainian one, even though Odessa is technically in Ukraine and I suppose that there's a great deal of people there who moved from Russian-speaking Ukrainian cities.

Also in the Soviet Union "Jewish" in and of itself was considered an official ethnicity, and is pretty much still thought of that way.

I would say that with the current Ukrainian government, there is a definite policy/tendency toward derussification. They look toward the West, toward NATO, and like to defy Russia.

Edited May 9, 2009 by eekee

[Brad and Vika 129]

I would say that with the current Ukrainian government, there is a definite policy/tendency toward derussification. They look toward the West, toward NATO, and like to defy Russia.

Good observation here. I find that they do both, shaking Russia's hand with the right - slapping Russia's face with the left. Some of the derussification appears to me to be political grandstanding, and Russia tolerates some of that because of close political/ethnic ties to much of Ukraine. For example, last year when the President of Ukraine was meeting with EU members, the PM was opening a free trade zone with Russia (in Crimea). Same week. The Ukrainian government does a pretty good job IMO of appearing to look west while not really antagonizing Russia much.

[slim 1,525]

Good observation here. I find that they do both, shaking Russia's hand with the right - slapping Russia's face with the left. Some of the derussification appears to me to be political grandstanding, and Russia tolerates some of that because of close political/ethnic ties to much of Ukraine. For example, last year when the President of Ukraine was meeting with EU members, the PM was opening a free trade zone with Russia (in Crimea). Same week. The Ukrainian government does a pretty good job IMO of appearing to look west while not really antagonizing Russia much.

So all those American "observers" did what?

And just for the record, Yulia Tymoshenko should be our all-time world leader. Kind of like how Johnny's dad was all-time QB when we played football, yeah, she should be all-time world leader. Maybe not actually making decisions and stuff, but just always on TV. Her and Sarah Palin together. Palin can be the West and Tymoshenko can be the East. Now the only big problems we're going to have is who's going to be shirts and who's going to be skins?

[Brad and Vika 129]

Good observation here. I find that they do both, shaking Russia's hand with the right - slapping Russia's face with the left. Some of the derussification appears to me to be political grandstanding, and Russia tolerates some of that because of close political/ethnic ties to much of Ukraine. For example, last year when the President of Ukraine was meeting with EU members, the PM was opening a free trade zone with Russia (in Crimea). Same week. The Ukrainian government does a pretty good job IMO of appearing to look west while not really antagonizing Russia much.

So all those American "observers" did what?

And just for the record, Yulia Tymoshenko should be our all-time world leader. Kind of like how Johnny's dad was all-time QB when we played football, yeah, she should be all-time world leader. Maybe not actually making decisions and stuff, but just always on TV. Her and Sarah Palin together. Palin can be the West and Tymoshenko can be the East. Now the only big problems we're going to have is who's going to be shirts and who's going to be skins?

Shirts and skins is so pedestrian. They could just oil up wrestle on pay per view to solve any disagreements.

[WalkonWildSide 0]

Shirts and skins is so pedestrian. They could just oil up wrestle on pay per view to solve any disagreements.

If it is Jello wrestling...I am thinking we have a way to get out of economic hole.

Who would be on the under-card?