Olbermann and Hannity are both fvcking nuts

[Heracles 417]

Honestly justifying this stuff has nothing to do with the spurious debate about whether or not waterboarding constitutes "torture" and whether or not it was "that bad".

Again the legal framework that says its ok to smother someone and pour water over their face, but not pull their fingernails out is about as meaningful in real terms as Bill Clinton excluding oral sex from his definition of "sexual relations".

The media's handling of the issue is pretty stupid IMO - perhaps they should be waterboarded before they throw out silly, pedestrian statements.

Well they need to define it but don't go around telling everyone what departments like the CIA or military are up to. No other country in this world publishes what they do or their next military move / strategy. America is not leading by example, they are simply becoming the laughing stock of the world. People don't value America more when the read about this so-called honesty approach or watch films like Fahrenheit 9/11. To the contrary, they use it against the US, to ridicule and hate on the country. Something liberal yanks just do not comprehend. Absolutely no one I heard of watched a film like Fahrenheit 9/11 and was like wow at least there are some Americans who see what is going on. To the contrary, they used it to reinforce their biases and further ridicule and hate on the nation.

I am not saying we should not question the government or hold them up to a high standard (this country sure needs that) but that does not mean publishing every single thing they do is the way to go about it. Ironically I believe people in the private sector, be it individuals, groups or companies, do more harm to this country and its reputation than any government. For example, when a company goes to a country and screws over the people there for a profit, who do you think the people will end up hating? The company? I think not. They will automatically equate it to a wrong doing by those "greedy imperialist Americans".

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

As usual - you're exaggerating. They don't publish "everything" and the Obama administration has already cited official secrets in the case of several Guantanamo detainees.

The fact is - this torture stuff was very controversial and divisive when the Bush administration as in power. The issue doesn't go away just because they're no longer in office.

[Heracles 417]

That's not really the point though, is it? The treatment of terrorists by those who are signed up the the agreement is rather more pertinent.

So what do we do when this approach fails. Do we sit here and take it all in the name of rights (Geneva conventions) or simply be the better person? Try explaing that the the thousands of thousands of Iraqis who have lost their lives to terrorists. All good and well to sit at my comfy desk and take about how bad this and that is. why don't you go out there and to many other hot spots around the world and tell the victims that all is good since the perpetrators of the violence or genocide are not having their rights violated.

This line of reasoning is why so much of London has become a crime cesspool. It is also why crime is so prevalent in the United States. Oh no we cannot target the perpetrators because that will be racist. We cannot be proactive because that will impede on somebody's rights. As is always the case, somebody has to pay for this lack of action in the name of rights. In both situations it is the innocent and those trying to get by or ahead who suffer the consequences. All while Cleos and co sit in their comfy upper middle class homes sipping tea.

[Peikko 1,575]

There is no 'lack of action' in the name or 'rights'. Honestly, you have a very pedestrian outlook on the world.

London a crime cesspool? How much nonsense do you soak up in the name of 'honest indignation'?

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

What I don't understand is why is there this explicit assumption that torture works in the big picture scheme of things...

That doesn't make sense at all.

[Heracles 417]

As usual - you're exaggerating. They don't publish "everything" and the Obama administration has already cited official secrets in the case of several Guantanamo detainees.

The fact is - this torture stuff was very controversial and divisive when the Bush administration as in power. The issue doesn't go away just because they're no longer in office.

Of course it was controversial as liberals made it controversial. Liberal yanks have some sort of fetish with rights. Anything rights related must be supported. Unless it's the rights of innocent people to live free of violence and murder. Then of course we are caught in an ethical loop, therefore, they go all mum on that because it contradicts and discredits other views and amendments of theirs.

The country is facing bankruptcy with millions of people without jobs, yet all liberal yanks can focus on is green power and rights. Seriously, what the #### is wrong with liberal yanks.

[Peikko 1,575]

What I don't understand is why is there this explicit assumption that torture works in the big picture scheme of things...

That doesn't make sense at all.

Well, obviously the 2 + 2 = in this instance terrorism is successful because Obama is too lily livered to administer the proper courses of action. All that is required is for a few 'terror suspects' to be hung drawn and quartered and uploaded onto U-Tube and problem solved!

Edited April 24, 2009 by Madame Cleo

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

As usual - you're exaggerating. They don't publish "everything" and the Obama administration has already cited official secrets in the case of several Guantanamo detainees.

The fact is - this torture stuff was very controversial and divisive when the Bush administration as in power. The issue doesn't go away just because they're no longer in office.

Of course it was controversial as liberals made it controversial. Liberal yanks have some sort of fetish with rights. Anything rights related must be supported. Unless it's the rights of innocent people to live free of violence and murder. Then of course we are caught in an ethical loop, therefore, they go all mum on that because it contradicts and discredits other views and amendments of theirs.

The country is facing bankruptcy with millions of people without jobs, yet all liberal yanks can focus on is green power and rights. Seriously, what the #### is wrong with liberal yanks.

Ah yes - its the liberals again.

Those same liberals who'd rather talk about some silly bint lost a beauty contest, rather than the imminent collapse of Chrysler.

Except - they weren't liberals were they...

[Heracles 417]

London a crime cesspool? How much nonsense do you soak up in the name of 'honest indignation'?

I can produce an article from your beloved BBC which talks about London's crime being one of the worst in the developed world. Since I have posted it a good 6 times now, in other threads, not going to bother with it again.

[Peikko 1,575]

I know my mum and I should have taken pistols with us the last time we wandered around London on foot - bloody dangerous place as it is.

[Heracles 417]

Well, obviously the 2 + 2 = in this instance terrorism is successful because Obama is too lily livered to administer the proper courses of action. All that is required is for a few 'terror suspects' to be hung drawn and quartered and uploaded onto U-Tube and problem solved!

Go sip some more tea. Then come back and tell me how bad being proactive is. How it is illogical to do this and that.

All while never offering any solutions of your own of course.

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

What I don't understand is why is there this explicit assumption that torture works in the big picture scheme of things...

That doesn't make sense at all.

Well, obviously the 2 + 2 = in this instance terrorism is successful because Obama is too lily livered to administer the proper courses of action. All that is required is for a few 'terror suspects' to be hung drawn and quartered and uploaded onto U-Tube and problem solved!

Its hard to understand how militant tribesmen scratching out a life in Afghanistan where life is short, cheap and violent is going to be dissuaded from what they're doing by the potential treatment they may or may not receive in a country that's a world away from anything they can imagine.

[Peikko 1,575]

I'll be sure to go have another cup of tea BY, it's always nice to have a cup and be mildly entertained by your hysteria.

[alienlovechild 75]

What I don't understand is why is there this explicit assumption that torture works in the big picture scheme of things...

It does work and the proof is when "enhanced interrogation" techniques give up info leading to people or places that can be verified. It's also true you'll get false info, too. You can get info other ways but it takes time and trained interrogators.

All of this stuff is 6 or 7 years old on around 30 (?) detainees so why is this even news now? Forget about the economy, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Mexico, Iran, Iraq, nukes, global warming, health care . . . so we can have some good old fashion show trials.

Quiz time- When was the last time POWs were THE major issue in a war(s)? This isn't just for you, 6. Anyone can play.

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

I know my mum and I should have taken pistols with us the last time we wandered around London on foot - bloody dangerous place as it is.

I know what you mean. When I was working there - I had to buy wear riot gear if I wanted to go out for lunch!

What I don't understand is why is there this explicit assumption that torture works in the big picture scheme of things...

It does work and the proof is when "enhanced interrogation" techniques give up info leading to people or places that can be verified. It's also true you'll get false info, too. You can get info other ways but it takes time and trained interrogators.

All of this stuff is 6 or 7 years old on around 30 (?) detainees so why is this even news now? Forget about the economy, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Mexico, Iran, Iraq, nukes, global warming, health care . . . so we can have some good old fashion show trials.

Quiz time- When was the last time POWs were THE major issue in a war(s)? This isn't just for you, 6. Anyone can play.

No, that's not my point. What I'm wondering is why people are labouring under the assumption that the fear of being "tortured" somehow prevents terrorism.