Engagement/Wedding Ceremony Pics

[babybunny 2]

oh god!

NOT THIS GAME AGAIN.

if you are married say your married stop playing the " lets pretend we are not game"

no one learned nothing from golden heart. this is bad!!!

BE HONEST TELL THE TRUTH! its harder to be DISHONEST than to be HONEST!!!

once you LIE - you have to keep on LYING ... all for a bloody K-1? your gonna risk getting

a bann. dayum that is selfish.

I happen to be one of the most selfless people on earth fyi...

If I go out and hire some elvis here in the USA to perform a marriage ceremony for me and my fiance without first applying for a marriage certificate, am I then married?

And were I to go around shouting "we're married we're married" when neither the USA or Morocco sees it that way, wouldn't that be the real lie? I simply want to know from the experience of others here who have used and not used their ceremony pictures, how the experience went for them. Have you or your fiance had an interview in morocco for K1? Did you have a ceremony in morocco before filing your K1? and if so, did you or did you not use photos from it and how was that experience from your point of view?

well how about learning a little knowlege.. if you are MARRIED you cant COME on K-1 visa!~~

your cheating by failing to registar the marriage! which you know is illegal. you keep the game going

by hiding your own pics. I hope everyone that plays that game get CAUGHT!!!!! saddly those Unknowingly

get caught too. but you are KNOWINGLY trying to FRAUD.. Hince the TITLE of your TOPIC. when you LIE you have to keep on LYING and one more thing- The embassy DOES conduct Field investigations.

if they ask neighbours if you married and they say yes- your goose is cooked! if you go in this with

clean hands - you should have no problems smooth sailing.

here is a grim reminder:

http://www.visajourney.com/forums/index.ph...c=15648&hl=

[PalestineMyHeart 1,897]

I don't always agree with you, Shon, but I think you have a valid point here (maybe expressed a bit harshly, but still a valid point.)

I'll probably cause a few folks to get their knickers in a twist by saying this, but it seems to me that some people DO try to "have it both ways." They have an "Islamic marriage" in their SO's country so that they can spend time alone together, even consummate their relationship without upsetting Muslim sensibilities. (I am certainly not pointing the finger at the OP here, as she clearly states there was no marriage contract nor any papers signed.)

But then, since they are convinced that a K-1 process for fiances will be "quicker" than the K-3 or CR-1 for spouses, they don't "register" the marriage, so that they can claim to U.S. immigration that they are merely "engaged."

So now we get into the question of.... when is a marriage not a marriage ? Is the answer "It's a marriage when it serves our purpose, and not a marriage when it doesn't ?"

Seems... well.... deceptive to present oneself as "married" as far as the family and community (not to mention, God) is concerned, but merely "engaged" as far as U.S. immigation is concerned.

So I would agree with most of the advice given here -- it doesn't seem prudent to use such photos as evidence of a fiance relationship. As Shon points out, even the title of this thread adds more confusion as to what exactly the relationship is.

-MK

[UmmSqueakster 54]

Not to divert the thread or anything, but my husband and I relied on the legal advice from an earlier edition of this book, that said that it was perfectly fine to have a religious ceremony and still apply for a fiance visa. It stated that USCIS doesn't care about anything other than a legal marriage, and hey, even mention your religous marriage at your fiance interview. So, we started planning the whole visa process in early 2002, got married religiously in 2003 and finally applied for a fiance visa in January 05, all the time relying on the information from this book that had come highly recommended from a lawyer friend. There wasn't anything surreptitious about it. We didn't even know it would be a problem until I found VJ in the midst of the K-1 visa and found out that things had apparently changed.

I would like to know when this mindset changed. I wonder if I write the author of this book if she'd respond. Hmmmm.

[soul_encounter 0]

oh god!

NOT THIS GAME AGAIN.

if you are married say your married stop playing the " lets pretend we are not game"

no one learned nothing from golden heart. this is bad!!!

BE HONEST TELL THE TRUTH! its harder to be DISHONEST than to be HONEST!!!

once you LIE - you have to keep on LYING ... all for a bloody K-1? your gonna risk getting

a bann. dayum that is selfish.

I happen to be one of the most selfless people on earth fyi...

If I go out and hire some elvis here in the USA to perform a marriage ceremony for me and my fiance without first applying for a marriage certificate, am I then married?

And were I to go around shouting "we're married we're married" when neither the USA or Morocco sees it that way, wouldn't that be the real lie? I simply want to know from the experience of others here who have used and not used their ceremony pictures, how the experience went for them. Have you or your fiance had an interview in morocco for K1? Did you have a ceremony in morocco before filing your K1? and if so, did you or did you not use photos from it and how was that experience from your point of view?

well how about learning a little knowlege.. if you are MARRIED you cant COME on K-1 visa!~~

your cheating by failing to registar the marriage! which you know is illegal. you keep the game going

by hiding your own pics. I hope everyone that plays that game get CAUGHT!!!!! saddly those Unknowingly

get caught too. but you are KNOWINGLY trying to FRAUD.. Hince the TITLE of your TOPIC. when you LIE you have to keep on LYING and one more thing- The embassy DOES conduct Field investigations.

if they ask neighbours if you married and they say yes- your goose is cooked! if you go in this with

clean hands - you should have no problems smooth sailing.

here is a grim reminder:

http://www.visajourney.com/forums/index.ph...c=15648&hl=

Thankfully, most here on this forum are supportive and helpful in giving advice. You would think, in a place such as this, with relationships such as these, there would be a lot less judgement and hate going around but oh well, the world is what it is.

The reason I went the K-1 route, was because my sweetie is my "FIANCE" not as yet a husband. We did not have the ceremony so we could have sex together or to appease either of our religious preferences (neither of us are religious) and no religious offical was in presence or anyone else who is liscensed to perform any marriage rites. Nor were any marriage vows spoken, papers or contracts signed etc And we did not do it because we cared what anyone thought of us or our relationship. Nor did I know of or think that the K1 was faster as compared to a K3. We filed K1 at the recommendation of an attorney, I was in no way intending to cheat law or time by any means. We had it at the request of his 90+yr old grandma who wished to in some way before she died be able to see that ceremony. Also, before going I specifically asked my fiance several times if he was sure about the legalities of this ordeal and he assured me it was in no way religiously or legally a marriage. Do I feel or believe we are married before God, State, Country or have any rights to claim any of the rights of married persons (such as insurance etc) NO... I do not and neither does my fiance. Am I committed to him and him alone, YES very much so.

Now opinions aside here, the "Legal" word from my immigration attorney who has worked several cases through Morocco is in today. She says that a ceremony of dress and dates and milk and friends and family is considered an "engagement" in the moroccan culture (is also quite common with marriage taking place several months or a year later even) and until legal and if islamic, religious avenues are pursued, we are in no way considered by anyone married.

Not to divert the thread or anything, but my husband and I relied on the legal advice from an earlier edition of this book, that said that it was perfectly fine to have a religious ceremony and still apply for a fiance visa. It stated that USCIS doesn't care about anything other than a legal marriage, and hey, even mention your religous marriage at your fiance interview. So, we started planning the whole visa process in early 2002, got married religiously in 2003 and finally applied for a fiance visa in January 05, all the time relying on the information from this book that had come highly recommended from a lawyer friend. There wasn't anything surreptitious about it. We didn't even know it would be a problem until I found VJ in the midst of the K-1 visa and found out that things had apparently changed.

I would like to know when this mindset changed. I wonder if I write the author of this book if she'd respond. Hmmmm.

Lol... let me know if you get a response from that author please. I would be curious to hear her take on this now.

[kerewin21 2]

soul_encounter,

We did a small engagement party with just family, we dressed up in Moroccan clothes, had a celebratory meal, and did the milk and dates. We included all of these photos, and the CO was actually particularly interested in a picture of me with his mother, with both of us dressed up. I think yours might be more complicated/confusing because it's going to be so big.

I certainly don't agree that you're somehow "cheating" by having an ENGAGEMENT party/ceremony and then applying for K-1. That doesn't make you are married and nobody should think you are.

We ran into absolutely no problems, and I thought it strengthened our application as we showed that his family was included and supported us.

That being said, there have been one or two instances recently where officers have thought a couple was actually married when they weren't and there have been some problems as a result. So you might want to tread carefully here. I think the fact that it's going to be a very big party might make it look more like a wedding and more "suspicious."

Anyway, the moral of the story is, plenty of us have had engagement parties and have had no problem, but there have been a few instances where some doubt was created (though they are not from Morocco) by having a wedding-like ceremony. I think you have to decide for yourself what to do. You might want to just include a few photos of you in the outfit, with the family, etc., and not show any of the big party.

Good luck with whatever you decide. I know it's confusing.

[PalestineMyHeart 1,897]

oh god!

NOT THIS GAME AGAIN.

if you are married say your married stop playing the " lets pretend we are not game"

no one learned nothing from golden heart. this is bad!!!

BE HONEST TELL THE TRUTH! its harder to be DISHONEST than to be HONEST!!!

once you LIE - you have to keep on LYING ... all for a bloody K-1? your gonna risk getting

a bann. dayum that is selfish.

I happen to be one of the most selfless people on earth fyi...

If I go out and hire some elvis here in the USA to perform a marriage ceremony for me and my fiance without first applying for a marriage certificate, am I then married?

And were I to go around shouting "we're married we're married" when neither the USA or Morocco sees it that way, wouldn't that be the real lie? I simply want to know from the experience of others here who have used and not used their ceremony pictures, how the experience went for them. Have you or your fiance had an interview in morocco for K1? Did you have a ceremony in morocco before filing your K1? and if so, did you or did you not use photos from it and how was that experience from your point of view?

well how about learning a little knowlege.. if you are MARRIED you cant COME on K-1 visa!~~

your cheating by failing to registar the marriage! which you know is illegal. you keep the game going

by hiding your own pics. I hope everyone that plays that game get CAUGHT!!!!! saddly those Unknowingly

get caught too. but you are KNOWINGLY trying to FRAUD.. Hince the TITLE of your TOPIC. when you LIE you have to keep on LYING and one more thing- The embassy DOES conduct Field investigations.

if they ask neighbours if you married and they say yes- your goose is cooked! if you go in this with

clean hands - you should have no problems smooth sailing.

here is a grim reminder:

http://www.visajourney.com/forums/index.ph...c=15648&hl=

Thankfully, most here on this forum are supportive and helpful in giving advice. You would think, in a place such as this, with relationships such as these, there would be a lot less judgement and hate going around but oh well, the world is what it is.

The reason I went the K-1 route, was because my sweetie is my "FIANCE" not as yet a husband. We did not have the ceremony so we could have sex together or to appease either of our religious preferences (neither of us are religious) and no religious offical was in presence or anyone else who is liscensed to perform any marriage rites. Nor were any marriage vows spoken, papers or contracts signed etc And we did not do it because we cared what anyone thought of us or our relationship. Nor did I know of or think that the K1 was faster as compared to a K3. We filed K1 at the recommendation of an attorney, I was in no way intending to cheat law or time by any means. We had it at the request of his 90+yr old grandma who wished to in some way before she died be able to see that ceremony. Also, before going I specifically asked my fiance several times if he was sure about the legalities of this ordeal and he assured me it was in no way religiously or legally a marriage. Do I feel or believe we are married before God, State, Country or have any rights to claim any of the rights of married persons (such as insurance etc) NO... I do not and neither does my fiance. Am I committed to him and him alone, YES very much so.

Now opinions aside here, the "Legal" word from my immigration attorney who has worked several cases through Morocco is in today. She says that a ceremony of dress and dates and milk and friends and family is considered an "engagement" in the moroccan culture (is also quite common with marriage taking place several months or a year later even) and until legal and if islamic, religious avenues are pursued, we are in no way considered by anyone married.

Well you've cited Shonnie's post here, but you seem to be answering issues I raised in my post as well.

Nowhere did I accuse YOU of having an Islamic marriage and then being deceitful about it in order to get a fiance visa. Nowhere did I accuse YOU of having a religious ceremony in order to have sex. In fact if you will read my post again, I pointed out that you made it CLEAR that you did NOT have such a marriage. So if it's my comments that have gotten you into such a huff and made you so defensive, I don't know why.

However there ARE many who have done the "we're married before God, but we're not officially married" thing, and even given the details here on VJ.

I think what set Shon off is the title of your post, referring to "Engagement/Wedding Ceremony" photos, and perhaps the comment about the grandmother "wanting to see her son married." It's things like these that get the situation all confused.

What most of us are saying here is that an elaborate 2-day ceremony complete with henna, 7 dresses, hair and makeup artists, hundreds of guests (I estimate hundreds because you mention a hundred chickens slaughtered for the feast,) a live band, a video photographer, even in your own words "everything done like a wedding" -- well all this may obviously look like a real wedding to the average Joe, and certainly to the Con Off. I know you're proud of your wonderful party and you should be, but the pics could easily be misinterpreted and that's why we're saying DON'T SHOW THEM as "evidence" of your fiance relationship.

Try to focus on the useful advice and information given in this thread and all over this site. It'll help you keep your sanity through this crazy process.

Wishing you all the best of luck....

-MK

[Sofiyya 1,687]

I'm totally lost abot this idea of an "Islamic" marriage for sex. In Islam, you're not married until you have a means of enforcing the conditions in your nikah, and in Morocco, you are not married, religiously nor legally, until the court deems you eligible, your nikah is signed with the adoul and registered in court. Until then, there is no enforcement for the responsibilities in the nikah, no protection of rights incurred, both required in Islam to do justice. Besides, elaborate parties may be fun, but they are disliked in Islamic law as being wasteful and ostentatious; it's recommended that the kind of money spent to produce such an event be best spent on the poor in zakat, so they're not even sanctioned by Islam.

If you do the fake "marriage" for sex (and I'm not saying that's what happened here), then you can't answer honestly that you are a virgin before marriage, which seems to be a concern for some COs, I understand, and you're not really married. You're not halal religiously and you've kinda backed yourself into a corner legally. If you want to be married, just do what's required to get married. All that prep time and money for the engagement party could have yielded a valid nikah, then nooky and a K3 would have been in order. Grandma would have had her dream wedding too.

Me, I wouldn't show those pics. I'm confused just hearing about them!

Edited June 28, 2006 by szsz

[soul_encounter 0]

oh god!

NOT THIS GAME AGAIN.

if you are married say your married stop playing the " lets pretend we are not game"

no one learned nothing from golden heart. this is bad!!!

BE HONEST TELL THE TRUTH! its harder to be DISHONEST than to be HONEST!!!

once you LIE - you have to keep on LYING ... all for a bloody K-1? your gonna risk getting

a bann. dayum that is selfish.

I happen to be one of the most selfless people on earth fyi...

If I go out and hire some elvis here in the USA to perform a marriage ceremony for me and my fiance without first applying for a marriage certificate, am I then married?

And were I to go around shouting "we're married we're married" when neither the USA or Morocco sees it that way, wouldn't that be the real lie? I simply want to know from the experience of others here who have used and not used their ceremony pictures, how the experience went for them. Have you or your fiance had an interview in morocco for K1? Did you have a ceremony in morocco before filing your K1? and if so, did you or did you not use photos from it and how was that experience from your point of view?

well how about learning a little knowlege.. if you are MARRIED you cant COME on K-1 visa!~~

your cheating by failing to registar the marriage! which you know is illegal. you keep the game going

by hiding your own pics. I hope everyone that plays that game get CAUGHT!!!!! saddly those Unknowingly

get caught too. but you are KNOWINGLY trying to FRAUD.. Hince the TITLE of your TOPIC. when you LIE you have to keep on LYING and one more thing- The embassy DOES conduct Field investigations.

if they ask neighbours if you married and they say yes- your goose is cooked! if you go in this with

clean hands - you should have no problems smooth sailing.

here is a grim reminder:

http://www.visajourney.com/forums/index.ph...c=15648&hl=

Thankfully, most here on this forum are supportive and helpful in giving advice. You would think, in a place such as this, with relationships such as these, there would be a lot less judgement and hate going around but oh well, the world is what it is.

The reason I went the K-1 route, was because my sweetie is my "FIANCE" not as yet a husband. We did not have the ceremony so we could have sex together or to appease either of our religious preferences (neither of us are religious) and no religious offical was in presence or anyone else who is liscensed to perform any marriage rites. Nor were any marriage vows spoken, papers or contracts signed etc And we did not do it because we cared what anyone thought of us or our relationship. Nor did I know of or think that the K1 was faster as compared to a K3. We filed K1 at the recommendation of an attorney, I was in no way intending to cheat law or time by any means. We had it at the request of his 90+yr old grandma who wished to in some way before she died be able to see that ceremony. Also, before going I specifically asked my fiance several times if he was sure about the legalities of this ordeal and he assured me it was in no way religiously or legally a marriage. Do I feel or believe we are married before God, State, Country or have any rights to claim any of the rights of married persons (such as insurance etc) NO... I do not and neither does my fiance. Am I committed to him and him alone, YES very much so.

Now opinions aside here, the "Legal" word from my immigration attorney who has worked several cases through Morocco is in today. She says that a ceremony of dress and dates and milk and friends and family is considered an "engagement" in the moroccan culture (is also quite common with marriage taking place several months or a year later even) and until legal and if islamic, religious avenues are pursued, we are in no way considered by anyone married.

Well you've cited Shonnie's post here, but you seem to be answering issues I raised in my post as well.

Nowhere did I accuse YOU of having an Islamic marriage and then being deceitful about it in order to get a fiance visa. Nowhere did I accuse YOU of having a religious ceremony in order to have sex. In fact if you will read my post again, I pointed out that you made it CLEAR that you did NOT have such a marriage. So if it's my comments that have gotten you into such a huff and made you so defensive, I don't know why.

However there ARE many who have done the "we're married before God, but we're not officially married" thing, and even given the details here on VJ.

I think what set Shon off is the title of your post, referring to "Engagement/Wedding Ceremony" photos, and perhaps the comment about the grandmother "wanting to see her son married." It's things like these that get the situation all confused.

What most of us are saying here is that an elaborate 2-day ceremony complete with henna, 7 dresses, hair and makeup artists, hundreds of guests (I estimate hundreds because you mention a hundred chickens slaughtered for the feast,) a live band, a video photographer, even in your own words "everything done like a wedding" -- well all this may obviously look like a real wedding to the average Joe, and certainly to the Con Off. I know you're proud of your wonderful party and you should be, but the pics could easily be misinterpreted and that's why we're saying DON'T SHOW THEM as "evidence" of your fiance relationship.

Try to focus on the useful advice and information given in this thread and all over this site. It'll help you keep your sanity through this crazy process.

Wishing you all the best of luck....

-MK

I didn't take offense at your previous post, that's why I didn't reply directly to you. I did note that you specifically tried not to implicate me in those motives and appreciate that. Yes, I have heard others here too say they did the ceremony to feel better about having sex or to feel more comfortable with their religious choices. Not that I am making any judgement on those who choose to do this or those reasons as that is surely their choice, and personally what matters in the end, is how they feel about their choice and if it was the right one for them. I just wanted to be sure, my motives were clearly understood by those reading this as they can often be easily confused. My sole reason in agreeing to that whole ceremony, was a sweet little old lady who was paying for it all. (very unselfish reasons as it wasn't what i wanted) Honestly, I was pretty terrified and overwhelmed by the whole thing, and even in planning our wedding here (as much as I can at this point) i'm thinking "Simple", family, close friends, 30 - 40 guests tops, outdoors, earthy... lol When planning my first trip to morocco, yea i knew I loved my sweetie and wanted to be with him, but to plan on "marrying" him the first time I actually met him in person, feels a little off to me. Secondly, I only had 2 weeks to stay and have heard it takes a month to legally marry. I really just wanted that time together to be sure of us and that we were right for each other for life.

I can see where the title may have been confusing to some, but the whole ordeal was confusing to me. I went into that ceremony clueless and didn't find VJ or others who had encountered this until after the fact.

As for what set me off, It was being lit into by another at a place where you would think judgement of anothers relationship or character would be a little less high. Perhaps the title and even a sentence or two of my origional post echoed my own confusion over the situation, but to be called a fraud a cheat and selfish was out of line. I think anyone who truly followed my posts and words could easily have distinguished my confusion in a word or two from fact as most did. My pet peeve in life is anyone who thinks or tries to impose their own sense of right or wrong on anyone else. If I had a friend who I watched making a choice that I never would have made or felt was right for me, I would still support them knowing that just because that choice wouldn't have been right for me, it might be for them.

I do appreciate the time reading and understanding my posts that you and others have taken and the helpful and honest advice. I do understand where others are coming from in saying that the elaborateness of the ceremony could cause more problems than good if interpreted by the wrong person or even the right person on the wrong day. At first, I had fully planned on sending everything, but after finding VJ a couple of months ago and reading experiences of others, it caused me to question that decision, hence this post. I am considering carefully all the replys here in making my decision.

Sanity is hard to come by these days for sure...lol But thank you and best of luck to you and all in this crazy situation.

soul_encounter,

We did a small engagement party with just family, we dressed up in Moroccan clothes, had a celebratory meal, and did the milk and dates. We included all of these photos, and the CO was actually particularly interested in a picture of me with his mother, with both of us dressed up. I think yours might be more complicated/confusing because it's going to be so big.

I certainly don't agree that you're somehow "cheating" by having an ENGAGEMENT party/ceremony and then applying for K-1. That doesn't make you are married and nobody should think you are.

We ran into absolutely no problems, and I thought it strengthened our application as we showed that his family was included and supported us.

That being said, there have been one or two instances recently where officers have thought a couple was actually married when they weren't and there have been some problems as a result. So you might want to tread carefully here. I think the fact that it's going to be a very big party might make it look more like a wedding and more "suspicious."

Anyway, the moral of the story is, plenty of us have had engagement parties and have had no problem, but there have been a few instances where some doubt was created (though they are not from Morocco) by having a wedding-like ceremony. I think you have to decide for yourself what to do. You might want to just include a few photos of you in the outfit, with the family, etc., and not show any of the big party.

Good luck with whatever you decide. I know it's confusing.

Thank you for your reply kerewin, it is great to hear from all sides of this experience. I really don't know if I am going to include a few simple shots or not at all at this point. But I am sure of this, although it is not what I wanted, terrified me completely, when I look at those photos and the video, and see my grandmom smiling, dancing and chanting along with the rest of his family and friends, I'll never regret it. Even if by some unforseen force it causes us a few extra months of delay, how could I be sorry I let him and his family celebrate that time together? It makes me sad to know that they will not be a part of the actual wedding here, but at the same time, I feel wonderfully loved and supported that they did all that they did for me then.

I'm totally lost abot this idea of an "Islamic" marriage for sex. In Islam, you're not married until you have a means of enforcing the conditions in your nikah, and in Morocco, you are not married, religiously nor legally, until the court deems you eligible, your nikah is signed with the adoul and registered in court. Until then, there is no enforcement for the responsibilities in the nikah, no protection of rights incurred, both required in Islam to do justice. Besides, elaborate parties may be fun, but they are disliked in Islamic law as being wasteful and ostentatious; it's recommended that the kind of money spent to produce such an event be best spent on the poor in zakat, so they're not even sanctioned by Islam.

If you do the fake "marriage" for sex (and I'm not saying that's what happened here), then you can't answer honestly that you are a virgin before marriage, which seems to be a concern for some COs, I understand, and you're not really married. You're not halal religiously and you've kinda backed yourself into a corner legally. If you want to be married, just do what's required to get married. All that prep time and money for the engagement party could have yielded a valid nikah, then nooky and a K3 would have been in order. Grandma would have had her dream wedding too.

Me, I wouldn't show those pics. I'm confused just hearing about them!

Thanks for the reply, I don't understand the islamic law on it all for sure, and neither does my fiance being he doesn't practice, go to mosque, or read the Koran. We weren't planning on being legally married or doing any vows until he comes here, so learning of and understanding the legalities there weren't a big concern at the time. And the money, wasn't mine or his to say what to do with. Thankfully here in the States, we don't have to answer that "virgin" question...lol

How long a period of celibacy does it take before one becomes a born again virgin anyhow? j/k But it has been months now...

[AngelK96 0]

How long a period of celibacy does it take before one becomes a born again virgin anyhow? j/k But it has been months now...

1 Year Soul Encounter Just kidding! I like that question though

[PalestineMyHeart 1,897]

Different countries have different procedures and customs.

When I was married in Sharia court in Palestine, a simple sworn and signed statement that I was free to marry, notarized at the U.S. Consulate, was accepted as the "certificate of celibacy."

-MK

[honeyblonde 0]

Soul,

I'm really sorry you had to endure Shon's ignorant lambasting for asking a simple question. This thread reminded me why I left VJ and why I am leaving again, this time until we need to renew our green card in a year and a half.

For many intelligent level-headed people this website is a source of valuable information on the process and an opportunity to learn from others experiences. Unfortunately for many not terribly intelligent definitely not mentally-balanced people, this site is a place to blast their anger at the world, and for others a source of amusement at those who do. I do not find this behaviour at all amusing and in fact am revolted by it. I never was a Jerry Springer fan.

If any of you want to ask me questions about the process (I figured out how to attach my timeline to my profile, thanks for letting me know it hadn't been) please PM me and I will get the message in my e-mail. I would like to remain friends with many here which is why I came back this time, and I have enjoyed some of what I have read here lately, but this ####### is definitely not worth wasting my time on. I end up getting upset when I see a normal person ask an innocent question and some mindless illiterate idiot who obviously can't even read the post they're responding to start screaming at that person.

Every person here needs to remember that each consulate is different, so what you experience in one country, even a "muslim" country, is not necessarily what will happen in another. Even within a country there is going to be a lot of difference between couples. SZ, for your information, Morocco is considered a moderate Islamic country and old traditions have as much influence in many areas as Islam does. My husband is like Soul's fiancee - he doesn't practice Islam. His family and the community he grew up in love to party and will celebrate anything lavishly. You have no right to judge others for spending their money how they choose and living life to it's fullest. Just because you choose to be religious and live a life of abstinence doesn't make you better than everyone else, it just seems to make you more judgmental and rude. I've tried to speak kindly to you on here and you've verbally slapped me in the face. I see I'm not the only one you're going around slapping.

From what I've seen in this forum over the past few months those Muslim's who complain so much about others judging them need to take a hard look in the mirror. Many of you come here and horribly judge others in this forum based on what you think they should be living their life like. Grow up! We're all individuals! Not everyone is going to believe how you do.

This part is not aimed at any specific person, just a general discussion, I'm just posting it here because this is my last post.

I know I'll probably get banned for this post, so I might as well let it all out. I've been biting the tip of my tongue off for months now. To those of you marrying little boys and wanting us to pity you when they act like children - freaking grow up! Sure I dated guys in their 20s for the past 10 or more years before I met Abdel. I even married one that was 10 years younger than me and would have told you many times on here just how stupid that was, but I know you're "in love" so you don't want to hear. Do you think things will be any easier once these children get here? If they are annoying you now when they are a continent away, trust me, they will annoy you every day once they arrive. If they don't respect your life or your feelings now, they aren't magically going to start to the minute they arrive. My ex even apologized to me last year after he saw a friend of his go through the things he put me through and he realized how immature he had been. This is an issue that has nothing to do with race or country but everything to do with the realities of being married to someone many years your junior. Couldn't you have found an American kid to date for a while to see the problems with that kind of relationship before you just jumped into an international marriage? Oh well, I did it, so I can't really say much, but I did want to finally tell you how I felt about it and what to expect. i don't think all age differences are so bad, once a guy is past about 30 he starts to grow up a little - but 21 or 22? Come on! My sons are that age and I couldn't imagine them being married.

next topic: Give me a break on the "Arab men aren't marrying that many American women." Yes they are! I still have folders full of messages (which I keep for future reference because I write) from men in Arab countries begging me to marry them for a green card. Many of the kids in their early 20's, especially Egyptian, would flat out say that it was for a green card. For over 3 years I blocked so many Arab men on ICQ and Yahoo it wasn't funny. All of them asked for marriage quickly, and vowed to be great husbands if I would just help them get the magic green card to a future. Many of them were brilliant educated men, like the doctor in Iran or the Engineer in Iraq, educated in the US and unable to make any money in their own countries. I'm an economics student, I understand the problems; I'm not condemning them, they have to live too. Don't stick your heads under rocks and pretend these things aren't happening. Be smart enough to make sure that the one you choose to marry is going to actually love you and be someone you can spend your life with. Like the awesome article posted in another thread said, many of them do become great husbands.

Last thing - please women, get educated. Amera, I learned so much from what you posted of your paper. I admire you and the way you stuck with your education even through impossible odds. Some of you on here are so brilliant I will truly miss you. Twila, that stupid woman had no idea who she was talking about when she said what she did about you. You are a wonderful brilliant woman and are smart enough to see the world through eyes that Debbie will never have. Sharon, I've always enjoyed talking to you - nice to see a doctor that can make me laugh. Wife of Mahmoud - you are a wonderful lady. You can always address a sensitive topic with tact and try to sort out hurt feelings - you'd make a great ambassador. Angel96 - what can I say - you're one of the lucky ones - beautiful inside and out. Jenn - you too, hope you're enjoying Italy. Rahma - I love how you stand for what you believe without judging others. I can't even think of you all right now - oh yeah, Noura and Rebecca - thank you both for being the best shoulders I had to lean on throughout the hard times - I consider you both my best friends. Salwa, I didn't get to know you better but wow, you're awesome.

For a lot of the rest of you - please quit judging others and grow up. This site should be for sharing and helping. It's not a place to vent at the expense of innocent people or to come "rack up points" or waste people's time posting stupid nonsense because you're bored. Then again, maybe it is, which is why I will leave instead of expecting anybody to change. Enjoy your lives, and may you get the results that will be best for your future.

Very disappointed,

Liz

[noura 0]

LIZ....

You will be missed, bravo for speaking your mind and calling a spade a spade. We will be in touch and I too consider you a dear friend. Inch'allah, one day we will meet in person - you and Abdel, me and Said. Thank you for all you've done and said. You too, have helped me thru some difficult hurdles and I will never forget that. You will not fall into the networld.... I'm keeping tabs on you sister!

Love ya honey...

Noura

Edited June 28, 2006 by noura

[AngelK96 0]

Thanks for your kind words Liz. You will be truly missed by me. You and Abdel are very lucky to have each other. Take care!

Angel

[babybunny 2]

I am not ignorate, Su gente!

NONE of you - were by Goldenhearts side the weekend her heart crushed. none of you. if you never

heard the sound of hearbreak- I promise you would not want to. its the most horrible sound you ever wanna hear!

you know I tried to get the OP to do the right thing. Thats is registar her marriage and stop

playing games with her and hubbys life! thats all. its so easy to BE HONEST. The OP rather take it

the hard way and start practiceing lying. I dont care if NONE of you agree with me, I dont care if

all of you hate me. My statements come from 2 things..1..the pain of the process she has gone through

2... the pain Golden heart from the weekend her heart was broken. dayum me for trying to point her in the

truthful direction!

Honey blonde- hey if you wanna leave BYE!! no one is stopping you. everything you called me and anyone on here a finger is pointing right back at you.

[Sofiyya 1,687]

SZ, for your information, Morocco is considered a moderate Islamic country and old traditions have as much influence in many areas as Islam does. My husband is like Soul's fiancee - he doesn't practice Islam. His family and the community he grew up in love to party and will celebrate anything lavishly. You have no right to judge others for spending their money how they choose and living life to it's fullest. Just because you choose to be religious and live a life of abstinence doesn't make you better than everyone else, it just seems to make you more judgmental and rude. I've tried to speak kindly to you on here and you've verbally slapped me in the face. I see I'm not the only one you're going around slapping.

First of all, honeyblonde, I have lived in Morocco and own a home there; I've forgotten more about the place than you will ever know. And I have every right to post about the law and Islam. I'm not here as a non-Muslim with a non-practicing Muslim husband. You did speak kindly to me, but you also made an assumption about me, which I corrected. There was nothing judgmental about setting the record straight.

I suspect that the only reason I appear rude and judgemental to you is because the answers I give aren't what you want to hear. Fine. Please, if you don't like my answers, please don't read them, but they are geared toward the deen that I and the majority of Moroccans relate to, and I'm not going to relate secular answers or endorse sin when people are talking about tradition and custom in a predominately Muslim country.

From what I've seen in this forum over the past few months those Muslim's who complain so much about others judging them need to take a hard look in the mirror. Many of you come here and horribly judge others in this forum based on what you think they should be living their life like. Grow up! We're all individuals! Not everyone is going to believe how you do.

This is the Middle East and North Africa forum. That area of the world is predominately Muslim, and, WOW!, some of the people here trying to get visas for their spouses will be Muslim, too, with Muslim values - practicing Muslims with the kind of responses that practicing Muslims tend to give. While non-Muslims deserve all due respect, I am not one to apply secular reasoning to acts that are being judged by what is traditional in a Muslim country, one that I know well. If you feel pride in representing the non-Muslim world as an influence who doesn't practice abstinance and wastes money, I'm not stopping you.

I'm sorry that you have a bad attitude toward religious people and consider them to be anything other than judgemental when they post as if the rules of social Christianity, Judaism and Islam have validity. I don't complain about being judged, and I don't spend time worrying about being judged. Anyone who wishes to express their ideas of secularism won't be blasted by me, but I will feel free to express my views as well.

PS - My answer wasn't to you anyway, Liz, and it didn't seem to bother the person to whom it was directed as much as it did you.