is good to marry within the first time we meet?

[chaishai 1]

This is kinda true, Lisa, but when I was told in no uncertain terms that I was jilted out of a wedding because well you weren't a virgin and my sister was and it would be a shame on my family if we had a large party because of this but I don't love you any less...

That's pretty damn clear, don't you think?

ETA.. I wonder if that kind of shet would fly if someone tried to marry my divorced SIL?

Sorry to keep talking about this but I'm in a bitchy mood.

well, what sucks a lot about this is that your husband should have the decency and caring to have maybe put a little different spin on it instead of lay it out there in such hurtful terms.

vent away....

(((Moody)))

My husband isnt always the best at sugar coating things. In fact, I think that is his biggest weakness, he is pretty blunt.

Maybe... he thinks that its ridiculous that in his culture and in his parents circle of friends and family that virgin/not virgin makes a difference, but nonetheless it does make a difference and you celebrate virgin weddings.

And maybe his parents also think its ridiculous, but know that celebrating a non virgin wedding would result in whispers and cattiness and they either 1. best case - didnt want you subjected to that or 2. worst case - didnt want to deal with that themselves. maybe they think its silly and stupid and love you but nonetheless its their culture and they dont have the conviction to stand up to it and celebrate anyway? what you say above, the other daughter would probably get nothing either and hopefully they totally love their daughter just as much as everyone else but its cultural and they arent strong willed enough to stand up and fight for it?

If this were my case, I would hope this was the reason. Id hope they were just being woosies vs. really not wanting to celebrate.

[venusfire503 54]

This doesn't deal with the wedding part of this conversation. I don't have anything to say about that, at least not now. To me, that's more the family than the SO. Yes, I would probably be insulted if I felt slighted. Yes, I think any of you in that type of situation have a right to however you feel about it. I tend to care about what my husband thinks of me, and not so much what other people think. But then again, I tend not to notice things (sometimes that's a good thing - not always, though).

I hope the next part comes across the right way. If it upsets anyone, then it didn't come out the way I intended.

I had a long conversation with my husband about the 'double standard' of how MENA men treat women - local (usually virgins) vs. foreign (usually - at least assumed to be - non-virgins). He basically said it boils down to this - the local girls won't put themselves in a situation where they COULD have sex with the men. That's a combination of (1) it's been drilled into their brains and (2) there are too many people around (like their parents) who wouldn't let them get away with it anyway. He said if a foreign woman would say "no", that would be respected. Oh, and he also said the men are more or less afraid of the fathers of the locals, too. Not too many American men are going to fly over there to knock on their doors because of what was done with their daughters!

I asked him point blank, if he had met a Moroccan woman, fell in love with her, she agreed to have sex with him, and he didn't have to worry about her family (father) would he have had sex with her? He said yes. If I had refused, would he have left me alone? Again, yes. I do feel kind of stupid for not doing more research before visiting him (and not just about that). I don't know if it would've made much difference. Hard to say.

So... as sweet as they are, they're still men. So, it's not that they care more about the local women. It just so happens that the opportunities more often come with the foreign women. I'm NOT saying that this means it's all our faults, though. (I guess he technically could've told me how American women were perceived.) I'm just telling you - again - how it was explained to me. You have to admit, there's a big difference in how things are often done here (or wherever we happen to be) and there.

Yes, it's still ok to feel cheated or insulted. I was just hoping that posting the information that I got might help someone feel a little better. Hearing it helped me. If it didn't help you, I hope it didn't make things worse. If it upset you, or made you feel bad, I'm sorry. That was definitely not my intent.

Best of luck to everyone...

venusfire

[It's me 1]

I did!

[Sofiyya 1,687]

It also wasn't my intent to make anyone feel bad either, nor to pull a scab off of long festering wounds. However, this is not an issue that hasn't been discussed before, although it's worth noting that it may be the first time a fight hasn't broken out. Culture mixing is an obstacle course, and people pay handsomely to learn how to handle it. Part of what I do is train individuals and corporate types how to navigate cultural issues in order to avoid liability and civil entanglements in their business and personal lives while living in MENA. I truly believe that if western women who involved themselves with MENA men would follow their hearts less, and become educated in the cultural differences before they take the leap into commitment, more relationships would go smoother, and the ones that shouldn't be would end sooner.

Another thing that needs to be said is that it's not only MENA that has a double standard in favor of men; the west does, too. MENA is just more upfront about it. And, as far as religion goes, all three Abrahamic faiths teach against pre-marital familiarity and carnal knowledge, so those who consider themselves to be Christian or Jewish can't point to Muslims as being hypocrites if they are willing to indulge their desires outside of marriage, as well.

Perhaps. with all that being said, there is a stigma placed on foreign women, who, divorced or not, are assumed to be non-virgins. So, for those who are involved with men from more conservative societies anywhere in the world, and who don't want to be perceived as "inferior", it is incumbant upon them to be aware of the local customs, and do as the locals do. From the very beginning, establish proper boundaries and demand respectful treatment from the men and their families. Don't expose your body in public, don't stay with him in his family's home, don't sleep with him before marriage, don't forgo a mahr, don't accept any "marriage" that doesn't allow you to file for a K3 or CR1. These are not things that the families of high value local women accept.

If you don't care about any of this, do what you want. For those who didn't know before, and feel slighted and resentful now, please know that there is no blame on you. The man you are/were with knew better and should have protected you from yourself.

Edited April 25, 2009 by Barza Woman

[Kenza 1]

My husband had all these western stereotypes about women and was surprised that I was still virgin, never consumed alcohol or drugs, and never went partying in clubs...

[Ihavequestions 419]

Perhaps. with all that being said, there is a stigma placed on foreign women, who, divorced or not, are assumed to be non-virgins.

I wonder about the "virgins marry virgins" part of Islam and if, by marrying a non-virgin, he would have to stand up in front of his friends/family and, sort of, publicly admit he's "damaged goods" himself and the bare minimum soiree is really a symptom of his own unwillingness to do so?

[Ban Hammer 13,349]

i think marrying a virgin is overrated. i'd rather have a gal that knows her way around.

[Sofiyya 1,687]

Perhaps. with all that being said, there is a stigma placed on foreign women, who, divorced or not, are assumed to be non-virgins.

I wonder about the "virgins marry virgins" part of Islam and if, by marrying a non-virgin, he would have to stand up in front of his friends/family and, sort of, publicly admit he's "damaged goods" himself and the bare minimum soiree is really a symptom of his own unwillingness to do so?

Surah 24:3: Let no man guilty of adultery or fornication marry and but a woman similarly guilty, or an Unbeliever: nor let any but such a man or an Unbeliever marry such a woman: to the Believers such a thing is forbidden.

There is no denying that selectivity in applying this ayah is also a great deficiency on the part of Muslims. The directive that a fornicator or adulterer cannot marry a virgin is all too often overlooked for Muslim men, who are seldom found guilty of these sins. Still, we are primarily talking marriage between unchaste Muslim men and non-Muslim women. Considering it in context of Surah 5:5, which explicitly allows marriage to chaste women of the Book, the permission to marry "unbelivers" should mean that the "unbeliever" is an unchaste non-Muslim woman, including an unchaste woman of the Book. Even a divorced or widowed woman can be chaste. All that requires is that she not has committed adultery or had sex outside of marriage. Emphasis on the character and values of a potential spouse is far more important than looks or fortune, and will last far longer than either.

Edited April 25, 2009 by Barza Woman

[Dr. A ♥ O 203]

His Mom and Sister are planning some kind of wedding celebration when I get there before we go to our place! Waleed is nervous about the attention and everything on his plate for when I arrive. I was asking will someone come and remove all my hair on my body and rub me with lotions and oils to smell good? I've read that's how they prepare the bride but I don't really know. He said his Sister would take care of the details and I would go to a place where they do the hair and makeup and we would get a wedding dress. Then I said WOW we are doing a wedding now? I wish my hair was longer. What do I have to do? Is there are ceremony or are we just on display? Will there be food? Are you inviting your friends? His Mom is paying for this because she really wants to do it for him. He is her special son. I know it is not how I would plan it but we are agreeing to have a wedding here now and this one is for him and his family. He is afraid I would be nervous as he is and I said I will be ok though I won't know what is being said. I will just smile a lot and be close to you and you hold my hand ok. He said sure though he is not sure to let them do it. I told him let them because it is for them really and they should have that happiness and it's only a few hours and we may get some money or gold for the appliances we need to buy for our place. It would be nice to have a good start and it is a right of passage we didn't get the first time because not everyone was accepting, but it's been 2.5 years now and everyone is accepting. I think it is going to be a small wedding celebration with just the family though. This is going to be an interesting experience for sure if he does let it happen!

[Y's_habibitk 2]

His Mom and Sister are planning some kind of wedding celebration when I get there before we go to our place! Waleed is nervous about the attention and everything on his plate for when I arrive. I was asking will someone come and remove all my hair on my body and rub me with lotions and oils to smell good? I've read that's how they prepare the bride but I don't really know. He said his Sister would take care of the details and I would go to a place where they do the hair and makeup and we would get a wedding dress. Then I said WOW we are doing a wedding now? I wish my hair was longer. What do I have to do? Is there are ceremony or are we just on display? Will there be food? Are you inviting your friends? His Mom is paying for this because she really wants to do it for him. He is her special son. I know it is not how I would plan it but we are agreeing to have a wedding here now and this one is for him and his family. He is afraid I would be nervous as he is and I said I will be ok though I won't know what is being said. I will just smile a lot and be close to you and you hold my hand ok. He said sure though he is not sure to let them do it. I told him let them because it is for them really and they should have that happiness and it's only a few hours and we may get some money or gold for the appliances we need to buy for our place. It would be nice to have a good start and it is a right of passage we didn't get the first time because not everyone was accepting, but it's been 2.5 years now and everyone is accepting. I think it is going to be a small wedding celebration with just the family though. This is going to be an interesting experience for sure if he does let it happen!

Sounds great Olivia!

[HLM 1]

I'm so happy for you Olivia!! It's a nice way to start your life there. I'm sure you'll enjoy it even if you have no idea what's going on - that's what happened with my husband- lol

[Dr. A ♥ O 203]

Thx HLM! I talked to my Mom tonight and she said it was so sweet of his family to do that for us there. She said I sounded really happy. It's only 20 days left! His Mom wants to do it right when I get there. Mom said I need a week to find a dress and rest from the jet lag. I am not sure if I will have any since it's an over night flight.

[Nothing1234 2]

That is awesome Olivia! We want pics!!! I'm sure its going to be wonderful and such a beautiful memory to hold and tell in the future!!

[Dr. A ♥ O 203]

Thx Nawal! Waleed is really stressing about the preparations he wants everything to be perfect. I tell him I won't know the difference even if it's a small thing I appreciate the gesture.

[Ihavequestions 419]

His Mom wants to do it right when I get there.

Olivia, in Egypt, a couple isn't "really" married until after the wedding party - after it's been made public to all of the friends and family. All she wants to do is ... make you an honest woman (don't mean to hurt your feelings; it's meant in the nicest of all possible ways), and she's just doing it in the way she knows. There's nothing wrong with wantin to show off the newest addition to the family, right?

You won't have to worry about a thing but looking splendid. Seriously, Olivia, you'll be so happy you did it. Take lots of pictures (there will probably be a camera and a video camera rolling - both at the same time anyway) and enjoy yourself.