Was I scammed

[daboyz 36]

Gary - [...] In the last three days, I have seen you yourself give at least two incorrect answers to questions [...]

I have seen even more than that number.

And, it never hurts to receive a legal consult from a qualified individual.

Si, man. And, Gary, if we "read accurately and interpret literally," many problems can be avoided. The same goes for posting accurately. If you take more care and publish fewer "drive-by" posts, more people can benefit from what you may have to say.

Have you and Rebeccajo opened your own immigration law firm together?

[rebeccajo 14]

Gary - [...] In the last three days, I have seen you yourself give at least two incorrect answers to questions [...]

I have seen even more than that number.

And, it never hurts to receive a legal consult from a qualified individual.

Si, man. And, Gary, if we "read accurately and interpret literally," many problems can be avoided. The same goes for posting accurately. If you take more care and publish fewer "drive-by" posts, more people can benefit from what you may have to say.

Have you and Rebeccajo opened your own immigration law firm together?

Um...no.

TBone isn't an attorney and neither am I.

[TBoneTX 45,064]

Um...no. TBone isn't an attorney and neither am I.

ROFL, indeed... and RJ & I ain't laughing this hard simply because of the humor of the suggestion itself (si man, RJ?). Edited April 15, 2009 by TBoneTX

[V-G-1 1]

When I was researching getting a K1 Visa in Bangkok and went to the Embassy, it was closed, but there was a man standing in front that said he worked for an agency across the street. Long story short, I ended up using this agency that is supposed to assist in getting a visa. It cost me a pretty penny... $1800 to be exact which I put on my credit card..... I thought they were saying $1800 Baht, but they were talking dollars.

In hindsight, I think I could have done everything they are doing, and saved a lot of money. But, it's too late I already paid them, and pretty much what they did so far, was fill out all the paperwork for me, which was 2 different forms, and put it in a package for me to send with a payment to Homeland Secuirty. I thought they would be submitting something in Thailand, but then I realized that the whole process starts here in the USA. I am reading people's timelines, and I see that it takes a good 4-6 months for the whole process, some longer.

I am about to submit the forms on April 13th.... I wish I had known that it was as simple as it was to fill out the forms, as I could have had this paperwork in February when I returned from Thailand to the states. Instead I waited for this agency to put it together for me, but it took a while for my fiancee to get all the appropriate documents, and then when I did get the package I was short on cash so I had to wait until I had $455 to send with the package.

My question is has anyone used one of these agencies? Do you think I was ripped off, knowing that I could do all this myself? I am not sure if having this agency will be useful later on in the process??

Yes, lots of people use them. They are called immigration attorneys in the USA. Why is it a scam when a Thai "agency" does it and not when an American attorney does? If you got what you agreed to pay for, what's the problem? It isn't a "scam", it is a service for a fee. Not much of a service, to be sure, and for less than many attorneys so, be happy.

If you hired an Americna attorney it would add to the process just the same, it is IMPOSSIBLE for anyone to file this for you. Yeah, they can lick the stamp, but not without YOU providing all the documents and information to fill in the forms. The typical attorney gets you to fill out a K-1 "questionaire" which is really just all the information they need to fill in the forms. By the time you complete the questionaire, you could fill in the form yourself!

Agreiing to pay someone else a fee for that which you can do yourself is NOT a scam. Now if he took your money and disappeared...THAT's a scam. He is just a Thai attorney.

What if you ever need an immigration attorney, Gary?

How do you know you won't?

Hey, I was agreeing with you Rebeccajo! You once said I should expand my mind about this stuff, and lookie here! I did. I felt I was expanding my mind and thinking globally and all that. I said it was NOT a scam, just like when American attorneys charge the same for doing almost nothing. Gosh I try to defend attorneys by telling the truth about their legitimate business....and look what happens.

Well, still working on expanding

I said this before---you need an atty when you need to go before an immigration judge, have to deal with deportation, research complex law, etc.....but this is a scam in the sense that they are charging legal fees for not "real" legal work---Attorneys love straight forward K-1s---do not give them the pleasure, let them do real legal work for their legal fees

[TBoneTX 45,064]

but this is a scam in the sense that they are charging legal fees for not "real" legal work

Attorneys charge for their TIME ("billable hours"), and for their purported or actual knowledge and expertise. This is the way the legal business works. And what is not "real" about working with ANY paper form that involves U.S. (or state, or local) law?

[*Robert* 2]

Tourist visas to the US are next to impossible to get in Bangkok.

I have to disagree. My gilfriend at the time (now my fiancée) had a 2 minute interview and was granted a 2 year multi entry visa. All that documentation she brought with her wasn't even looked at. The interviewer asked her a couple of simple questions and told her that her passport and visa would be mailed to her in 2 days. ...unbeknownst to him, her boyfriend (fiancé....me) had already submitted her I-129 petition.

Your fiancee was an exception and the exception doesn't prove the rule. Glad she didn't have any trouble getting the multiple-entry visa.

Fully concur. It is definitely the exception and not the rule, and I was rather shocked to read she got one. In order for a Thai citizen to get a B1/2 visa, they must show evidence that they have STRONG ties to Thailand, whether through bank accounts, property, business, or other such evidence. Some girl walking in from the country is NOT going to get a tourist visa!

Note: Daboyz said "next to impossible", not impossible. Anyone who has dealt with the consulates in Thailand long enough know that this is in fact the case.

[*Robert* 2]

I am about to submit the forms on April 13th.... I wish I had known that it was as simple as it was to fill out the forms, as I could have had this paperwork in February when I returned from Thailand to the states. Instead I waited for this agency to put it together for me, but it took a while for my fiancee to get all the appropriate documents, and then when I did get the package I was short on cash so I had to wait until I had $455 to send with the package.

The fact that you were short on funds, and are having to pay off the $1800 in installments causes me some concern, since the immigration process is far from cheap, and part of the criteria for the beneficiary, is to show they are 125% above the poverty level.

To be blunt, if you don't have a steady form of income, this is not a good path to take.

[B&Gie 0]

I'm surprised no one else has brought this up. The fact that you were scammed so easily and so seriously, and even worse that you came here to ask if you really were scammed makes me very, very concerned about your plan to marry a Thai girl. Now I haven't spent a whole lot of time in Thailand but I knew before I even arrived there to be darn careful of both the girls and the scam artists. Thailand is an amazing place and most Thais are lovely people, but you really need to be on your toes there. You need to be street smart and always a bit suspicious. It sounds to me like you may have jumped in way over your head. Maybe I'm wrong. Maybe there is more history here than I know, but darn is that a BIG warning flag. How do you decide to marry a Thai girl while still being such a naive Thailand newbie that you fall for a scam like this....and not even be sure in hindsight that it was a scam. I truly don't intend to be mean or disrespectful, but if you were one of my friends or family members I would be VERY concerned for you right now. I'm having visions of train wrecks. Anyway that's what I'm thinking. Take it or leave it as you see fit.

About your money: Yes you were scammed. You agreed to the service but the description of the service and the price were fraudulent. 1800 Bhat (what he told you the price was) for a Thai guy to help you with papers for 2 hours is good money there, but reasonable. $1800 USD for the same thing is fraud. That's over half a year's pay there. If it was like $15000 here in the US would you fight it? Even a immigration attorney in the US wouldn't charge $1800 for just some help with the initial forms. Granted they wouldn't do a whole lot more in most cases, but they would at least handle a lot of the interaction with the government so it at least looked like they were really working on it even if it was mostly just forwarding documents around. Just because you were scammed by a business doesn't mean it wasn't a scam or that it wasn't fraud. It just means it'll be harder to see justice done. Call your credit card and fight it. It might not work but you are in the right and it is worth at least trying. Tell them you're happy to pay the 1800 bhat which is what they guy told you and what is a reasonable, even generous payment for the service rendered.

[*Robert* 2]

Let's recap for the noobs...

He was NOT scammed; he is merely experiencing "buyers remorse".

B&Gie... would it have been better if he went to the PI to be scammed? I mean after all... there are absolutely NO scams in the Philippines, right?!

Your visions are wrong, and you need to save them for yourself. How did you decide to marry a Pinay? Are you some expert on Asia? What kind of questions are you asking? Are you somehow better?

Bai ga gai!

[daboyz 36]

I'm surprised no one else has brought this up. The fact that you were scammed so easily and so seriously, and even worse that you came here to ask if you really were scammed makes me very, very concerned about your plan to marry a Thai girl. Now I haven't spent a whole lot of time in Thailand but I knew before I even arrived there to be darn careful of both the girls and the scam artists. Thailand is an amazing place and most Thais are lovely people, but you really need to be on your toes there. You need to be street smart and always a bit suspicious. It sounds to me like you may have jumped in way over your head. Maybe I'm wrong. Maybe there is more history here than I know, but darn is that a BIG warning flag. How do you decide to marry a Thai girl while still being such a naive Thailand newbie that you fall for a scam like this....and not even be sure in hindsight that it was a scam. I truly don't intend to be mean or disrespectful, but if you were one of my friends or family members I would be VERY concerned for you right now. I'm having visions of train wrecks. Anyway that's what I'm thinking. Take it or leave it as you see fit.

About your money: Yes you were scammed. You agreed to the service but the description of the service and the price were fraudulent. 1800 Bhat (what he told you the price was) for a Thai guy to help you with papers for 2 hours is good money there, but reasonable. $1800 USD for the same thing is fraud. That's over half a year's pay there. If it was like $15000 here in the US would you fight it? Even a immigration attorney in the US wouldn't charge $1800 for just some help with the initial forms. Granted they wouldn't do a whole lot more in most cases, but they would at least handle a lot of the interaction with the government so it at least looked like they were really working on it even if it was mostly just forwarding documents around. Just because you were scammed by a business doesn't mean it wasn't a scam or that it wasn't fraud. It just means it'll be harder to see justice done. Call your credit card and fight it. It might not work but you are in the right and it is worth at least trying. Tell them you're happy to pay the 1800 bhat which is what they guy told you and what is a reasonable, even generous payment for the service rendered.

I paid my lawyer exactly $1800 USD here in the states. The guy turned out to be worthless. That said, it is not fraud. Maybe a rip off, but not illegal. Now I just do my best to warn other people.

[jundp 191]

Not everyone is comfortable doing this process alone. Clearly, or there wouldn't be immigration lawyers. It doesn't make a person stupid or gullible to use an attorney. I agree that it might be a waste of money, and we did ours without the help of a lawyer, but we had an easy case. Germany is not a high fraud country, there were no problems to deal with at all, and there was no reason for us to use a lawyer as we both have the ability to read and handle the paperwork ourselves. HOWEVER, that isn't to say we might not have need of an attorney at some point in the future.

[scandal 951]

Gary - [...] In the last three days, I have seen you yourself give at least two incorrect answers to questions [...]

I have seen even more than that number.

And, it never hurts to receive a legal consult from a qualified individual.

Si, man. And, Gary, if we "read accurately and interpret literally," many problems can be avoided. The same goes for posting accurately. If you take more care and publish fewer "drive-by" posts, more people can benefit from what you may have to say.

Have you and Rebeccajo opened your own immigration law firm together?

The legal partnership powerhouse I want representing me would be Gary&Rebeccajo, LLP

The only question is, would any briefs ever be prepared for the clients while the partners engage in daily mud wrestling matches?

[B&Gie 0]

He was NOT scammed; he is merely experiencing "buyers remorse".

Was he scammed? I'm not 100% sure since I don't have a recording of the whole incident, but I would bet he was. It sure sounds like the guy told him it was 1800 Bhat. If the guy told him 1800 USD and he said OK then no it wasn't a scam it was just him being stupid. If that's the case then he now how has buyers remorse and he should just suck it up and accept his losses. However it sounds to me like the guy was being deceptive on the price. When the taxi driver doesn't turn the meter on and then tries to charge you $500 for a $5 ride, do you pay it? After all you got into the taxi knowing you were going to have to pay for the ride right? Of course you don't pay it. You hand him a reasonable ammount and when he asks for more you tell him to get stuffed. Of course you should alwaysbe 100% clear on price first, but if you don't and the guy charges you several orders of magnitude more than the going rate, that's fraud. If you go to the cops they will tell him to get stuffed or even arrest him. Some cities have taxi fraud units with undercover cops posing as"foreigners" at the airports to catch these guys just like they do sting operations with fake undercover hookers and drug dealers. The visa scam agency is the same thing. Sure he is a dumbass for trusting that guy. Sure he is a dumass for not being 100% sure what the price is and exactly what services are to be rendered. I would even say he is a dumbass for giving his credit card to a Thai national he just met on the street....always pay cash. I'm not sure that the Thai tourist police would back him up, but by the American standards of the credit card company, IF they told him it was 1800 Bhat then it is clearly fraud.

B&Gie... would it have been better if he went to the PI to be scammed? I mean after all... there are absolutely NO scams in the Philippines, right?!

Yes it's alway better to be scammed in the Philippines.

Look, I'm not bashing Thailand. For the most part I love Thailand. My bigest problem with Thailand is that I have to share it with so many darn farrang. However, one of the (few) things I don't like about Thailand is that everyone and his brother is trying to scam you, at least in Bangkok. Even some of the farrang are trying to scam you. Actually it dosn't bother me much because I'm reasonably informed and suspicious and it's a lot less of an issue outside the capitol. Listening to all the slick scam artists trying to talk you out of your money can actually be kinda fun. It is almost as much a part of the BKK experience as tuktuk rides and playing spot the ladyboy. I think someone earlier said BKK is the scam capitol of the world, and I have to agree. I hadn't been out of my room more than 15 minutes before I had the first scammer approach for the clasic free tuktuk tour...of suit factories, jewelery shops, etc, etc.. By contrast I saw very few street level scam artists in the Philippines. Online dating scams yes....internet cafes could be...ammusing, but street level con artists, not so much. I'd guess that's mostly because of the relative lack of tourists. There's just not enough rich suckers walking around to support many scam artist in the Philippines. I'd bet there's a lot more scammers in BKK than there are tourists in all of the Philippines. Of course in the Philippines I'd say you're a lot more likely to get pick-pocketed, robbed at knife/gunpoint , or kidnapped, so don't think I'm playing favorites. And you're way more likely to be blown up by dynamite fishermen in the Philippines. That was an... interesting... experience.

How did you decide to marry a Pinay? Are you some expert on Asia? What kind of questions are you asking?

I don't claim to be an expert on asia. I spent about 15 months traveling south east asia and I saw a few things and drew a few conclusions. I'm marrying a Pinay because one of her coworkers introduced us, she was quiting her sales job which she hated, she was willing to travel with me, and she had a hot @$$. After several months of traveling together and even more months of corresponding I came to the (somewhat grudging) conclusion that she really was a smart, hardworking, humble, fun, cheerful, and a tremendously good caring warm hearted person who is genuinely head over heels in love with me. I didn't really feel ready to be married yet, but I've never been this happy with anyone else, so I'm going with it. That's why I'm marrying a Pinay. I still half think its crazy, and it sure is a pain in the rear marrying a foreigner, but at least I'm satisfied that I've done my due diligence. Maybe I've been scammed...but if I have, I'll take her to Hollywood and with acting skills like that she's sure to be a star.

Your visions are wrong, and you need to save them for yourself. Are you somehow better?

Anyway, like I said I don't know the guy's history. I'm not claiming to have any prophetic visions of the future, or be better than anyone. Maybe it will all work out great...I certainly hope it will. However this story just makes me cringe. It would make me cringe if it was on thorntree and he was just on vacation, but it really makes me cringe knowing that he's there to get married. There's the potential for a bigger mistake, and he has already shows that he might have poor judgement or be uninformed. Maybe he just had a bad day. Maybe his honey just needs to give him some pointers on street smarts in Thailand. But for me it's a warning flag that maybe he ought to just double check that he's done his due diligence and really knows what he's getting into. I don't know whether he just picked her picture a few weeks ago on HotThaiBrides4NaiveDorks.com or whether he's an expat who speaks fluent Thai and they have been living together for years. Probably it's somewhere between those extremes, but I don't know so I'm not qualified to judge. However, I'd rather give him a reality check he doesn't need than not give him one that could potentially stop him from walking blindly into a lot of trouble. he can always ignore me. I don't mean to say anything bad about Thailand or his fiancee or even him. I'm just asking whether he has really sat down and thought about it and informed himself like he should have. I'm not claiming he hasn't. I don't really want to know whether he has, or hasn't. I'm just saying that if he hasn't then he might want to 'cause it could potentially save him a lot of trouble down the road. I don't know how naive he is so it's better to warn him just in case. If his encounter with the visa agency scam is any indication it's not unreasonable to think that some introspection and education might help make life easier for him and his fiancee.

[daboyz 36]

One thing I noticed in the Philippines, was that most of the security guards were armed. You never see that in Thailand. I used to go to meetings at PLDT in Makati alot. I was signing in, and I looked at the security guards pistol. He had the strap wrapped around the hammer. I pointed out to him that's a good way to shoot yourself in the leg. He just smiled at me. Ohh well.

[KimandRuss 0]

Hopefully we all take something away from this... and that is that even though you're paying someone to do something for you it is ultimately still up to you to be sure that person is doing it right! Hiring someone off the streets... never recommended.

This process can be completed by the majority of us without any additional help but some people most certainly do need a good qualified immigration attorney for whatever reason. For someone to blatenly tell them they do not is careless and destructive advice to give.