the truth will out

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

Probably because in the second instance there isn't a political action group creating slanderous advertisements to defame the general in question.

Secondly, this story about US guns to Mexico isn't as high profile a news story as Iraq was.

[SMOKE 1,426]

well if you can't see the difference in a politically motivated personal attack on Gen. Petraeus & a reporter simply stating facts that the general was either misinformed or exaggerated the numbers when making a claim. i can't help ya then buddy.

Edited April 2, 2009 by SMOKE

[Heracles 417]

slight bit of difference in calling Gen. Petraeus-Gen Betrayus for his support of US forces & their mission in Iraq.

&

calling a general on a claim backed w/ facts that prove his claim to be false.

keep spinning Steven.

[one...two...tree 2,762]

Certainly. My point is that the 90 percent was not some magical number that some left wing conspiracy is trying to pull. It came from a military report on the violence in Mexico...from our own military.

the "90%" was in reference to the percentage of guns that had been returned to ATF for a data check that were actually taken to mexico from America. the atf report totally ignores other guns involved in the conflict (60 some percent), which were never considered by ATF because they could not have come from US, and clearly relieves the US of responsibility for about 17% of the crime scene guns which "might have" been smuggled to mexico from the US.

the use of the term "90%" in all of the headlines we've been reading, some of which are quoted in this article, is clearly misleading. how surprised a democrat voter must be to find out the truth, that his elected and appointed representatives have deliberately lied to him. but then, what's new?

what we don't know about the "90%" that i would really be interested in, is how many of those were released into the interstate market for sale to individuals, and how many were "made in USA", but released to foreign militaries. the full auto that have been identified as "made in USA" are surely a part of the latter, and have nothing to do with sales of firearms in the US public market.

So, if you had to make an educated guess on what percentage of the weapons that the drug cartels have in their possession have been smuggled from the states, what number would you say? And why?

[one...two...tree 2,762]

well if you can't see the difference in a politically motivated personal attack on Gen. Petraeus & a reporter simply stating facts that the general was either misinformed or exaggerated the numbers when making a claim. i can't help ya then buddy.

My point, Mike - is that not everyone who thought Gen. Petraeus' report on Iraq was political, endorsed that ad from MoveOn.org and that's not even what I was talking about. Those who openly questioned the General's truthfulness were labeled as traitors.

So my question to you is - when is it okay to question the validity of what a military general's report? In other words, was it reasonable to question Petraeus' report at all?

Edited April 2, 2009 by Mister Fancypants

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

well if you can't see the difference in a politically motivated personal attack on Gen. Petraeus & a reporter simply stating facts that the general was either misinformed or exaggerated the numbers when making a claim. i can't help ya then buddy.

My point, Mike - is that not everyone who thought Gen. Petraeus' report on Iraq was political, endorsed that ad from MoveOn.org and that's not even what I was talking about. Those who openly questioned the General's truthfulness were labeled as traitors.

So my question to you is - when is it okay to question the validity of what a military general's report? In other words, was it reasonable to question Petraeus' report at all?

I think Steve, that you're falling into that trap of seeing hypocrisy where none exists. If you didn't endorse the Betrayus ad, then you have nothing to feel guilty about (and why care if some ignorant people can't tell the difference?).

[SMOKE 1,426]

the paragraph above the line you quoted states 17% "MIGHT HAVE"

[Heracles 417]

I think Steve, that you're falling into that trap of seeing hypocrisy where none exists. If you didn't endorse the Betrayus ad, then you have nothing to feel guilty about (and why care if some ignorant people can't tell the difference?).

It's so sweet to see 'The group' standing by and reassuring one another.

Edited April 2, 2009 by Constellation

[one...two...tree 2,762]

the paragraph above the line you quoted states 17% "MIGHT HAVE"

The most accurate way is to look at the stats of what has been caught being smuggled to Mexico. That's how they estimate the amount of drugs being smuggled here.

[SMOKE 1,426]

i admire your passion Steven. but, like Private Pike said:'I think Steve, that you're falling into that trap of seeing hypocrisy where none exists.'

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

I think Steve, that you're falling into that trap of seeing hypocrisy where none exists. If you didn't endorse the Betrayus ad, then you have nothing to feel guilty about (and why care if some ignorant people can't tell the difference?).

It's so sweet to see 'The group' standing by and reassuring one another.

Read a little closer Forrest - that's not what I was saying at all.

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

i admire your passion Steven. but, like Private Pike said:'I think Steve, that you're falling into that trap of seeing hypocrisy where none exists.'

I agree with you that there's no reason to suppose that there's any connection between the objection to this General's assertions and Gen. Petraeus' testimony on Iraq.

The only reason to make that connection is to imply hypocrisy on the part of people disputing the 90% claim.

[I AM NOT THAT GUY 5,715]

the paragraph above the line you quoted states 17% "MIGHT HAVE"

The most accurate way is to look at the stats of what has been caught being smuggled to Mexico. That's how they estimate the amount of drugs being smuggled here.

I had friends a couple of decades ago that spent time along side DEA agents at night, in spider holes, in Smuggler's Canyon, along the Mexican border in Southern California. Pack mules were carrying drugs north, and weapons south. Later, my unit help build at first border trails, and then added stadium lights. Eventually they started building the border fence, but had to leave a gap at the shore line, for "enviromental concerns". Now that the fence is done, the smugglers just build tunnels. It has been a long and protracted effort, and not completely successful.

Edited April 2, 2009 by Mister_Bill

[one...two...tree 2,762]

I was watching a segment of the movie, Traffic, last night. When those DEA agents are interviewing Miguel Ferrer, he explains to them how they are able to successfully smuggle drugs into the U.S.. It's a numbers game. Same logic applies to weapons being smuggled into Mexico.

[justashooter 430]

So, if you had to make an educated guess on what percentage of the weapons that the drug cartels have in their possession have been smuggled from the states, what number would you say? And why?

I would guess that the handguns recovered from mexican crime scenes close to the border are more likely smuggled out of America, than the "assault rifles". Handguns are common enough in mexico, though any in "martial" calibers like 9X19 or 45ACP are forbidden for private ownership by mexican law.

Best estimate is that 35 million AK pattern rifles have been surplussed to secondary market since 1970 (about half of the 80 million produced in com bloc countries between 1950 and present day). They are the most common and most readily procured military weps on the globe. FN/FAL run a fair second in production but not in surp release, and M16 types a fair 3rd. PPSH types top the subguns, with PPS43 and an assortment of lesser production designs like ZA uzis rounding things out. MG42 types and US pattern 1919 make up the majority of squad weps available, with the "ma deuce" as the cream of the crop in heavy weps.

The number of surped handguns pales by comparison. I would estimate no more than 8-10 million released from com bloc sources since the demise of the soviet state, with a few other odd sources in dribs and drabs. That being said, military surplus handguns are available on the international market by the shipping container. I have Romanian, Polish, Chinese, and Russian Tokarev designs that were bought by American importers by the container and surped out in the US over the past few decades. I also have Argentine 1911 types, Makarovs from various countries, etc.

WAG? I would say that less than 3-5% of the firearms in use in mexican crime are smuggled from USA after sale to USA individuals, and that none of those are full auto. I would expect these tyo be in the hands of amateurs who are not well enough connected to get the fun stuff.