Sweden unveils 'ambitious' clean energy strategy

[fozzie 41]

It's just that when you read a very enthusiastic article with no hard facts, tend to read it as more BS, plenty of that going around. Biofuels is one of them, also carbon based contradictory reduced CO2 missions, requires farmland to produce the plants competing with our own food supply, and a single SUV can consume more of this "food", than a thousand families in a period of one year. But even the UW is trying to use biological means to produce these fuels rather than the heat of fossil fuels. Kind of an indirect means to obtain energy with the corresponding conversion losses people tend to overlook.

The fossil fuel requirements to produce photovoltaic cells can be equal or more than the amount of energy they can produce over their lifespan, and wind power can kill birds, dumb birds, but nevertheless, birds. Can't have tidal power either, will spoil the view and mangle sealife.

Hydrogen and electricity are not energy sources, but are an inefficient means as energy media as well as batteries and hybrid vehicles, the fuel cell is really a dead end investment. The only true energy source with have any hopes with is nuclear fusion, but very little research is being done on that.

Just BS, all BS, getting sick of hearing it.

So we should stop researching other sources of fuel Nick? Nuclear Power has terrible wasteproduct (granted, great strides have been made) and Australia can only bury so much of it. Right now I agree that it is the best available but a nuclear power plant has potentially more devestating effects on wildlife...as do coal fired power stations. Its a trade off, do we stick with what we have, watch it get more expensive and eventually run out leavig us with no source of energy or do we try to change. Just by dismissing what is currently out there helps no one. We need to do something the debate is in the what not the if.

I was unaware that we used so much fossil fuel to make photovoltaic cells. Can you clarify at what part of the process that happens?

Also photovoltaic cells are not the only method of capturing the suns rays. A solar collector field is comprised of a huge array of concave mirrors. These mirrors track the position of the

sun throughout the day, focussing the sun’s energy on a black tube that runs along the focus of the array. This

black tube is surrounded by a second glass tube that protects it from the air, allowing it to absorb solar energy

more effectively. As super heated water passes through the black tube, the solar energy heats it up even more to

an incredible 450 degrees F.

[one...two...tree 2,762]

fozzie,

I don't know if it's even worthwhile to argue with Nick. He's always on a rant about alternative energy and climate change and he doesn't want to bothered with facts.

[Danno 1,228]

It's just that when you read a very enthusiastic article with no hard facts, tend to read it as more BS, plenty of that going around. .........(snip)

Nick I read all the facts I needed to read in the article.

Bottom line, They know when all is said and done, the only way to get people into embracing their "wonder plans" is to punish them if they dont. (Typical big govt)

They plainly admit they will tax (the hell) out of normal cars and.... tax-break electric ones..

The power to tax is the power to enslave.

So why this mirage, as if this is, Kennedy committing to put a man on the moon?

Why don't they commit to building an alternative car which will be cheaper to buy, cheaper to use and just as practical to operate, then FREE PEOPLE that have a choice would willingly buy this product?

Truth is, all the lefties that get aroused over such news stories... and applaud the Govt for for dictating markets and personal lifestyle choices are so seldom taking the lead in their own personal lives.

Noooo, they don't think enough of Electric cars to buy one themselves..... but they want the Govt to force me to buy one.

How many of you who like this move by Sweden have an electric car now yourself?

None of you but you think it is wonderful that the Swedish will have to buy one.

You want the Govt to force people into doing what you yourself will not do.

Hey why don't we come up with an "Ambitious plan" to combat obesity too?

Sure we could simply tax the hell out of food for anyone on the "obesity list".

To buy any food item you must present your -Govt food card- and if yours has an "F" on it (for fat of course) then you pay the -added tax- on any fatty food item.

See how wonderful and "Ambitious" this plan is?

Government Mules

[fozzie 41]

It's just that when you read a very enthusiastic article with no hard facts, tend to read it as more BS, plenty of that going around. .........(snip)

Nick I read all the facts I needed to read in the article.

Bottom line, They know when all is said and done, the only way to get people into embracing their "wonder plans" is to punish them if they dont. (Typical big govt)

They plainly admit they will tax (the hell) out of normal cars and.... tax-break electric ones..

The power to tax is the power to enslave.

So why this mirage, as if this is, Kennedy committing to put a man on the moon?

Why don't they commit to building an alternative car which will be cheaper to buy, cheaper to use and just as practical to operate, then FREE PEOPLE that have a choice would willingly buy this product?

Truth is, all the lefties that get aroused over such news stories... and applaud the Govt for for dictating markets and personal lifestyle choices are so seldom taking the lead in their own personal lives.

Noooo, they don't think enough of Electric cars to buy one themselves..... but they want the Govt to force me to buy one.

How many of you who like this move by Sweden have an electric car now yourself?

None of you but you think it is wonderful that the Swedish will have to buy one.

You want the Govt to force people into doing what you yourself will not do.

Hey why don't we come up with an "Ambitious plan" to combat obesity too?

Sure we could simply tax the hell out of food for anyone on the "obesity list".

To buy any food item you must present your -Govt food card- and if yours has an "F" on it (for fat of course) then you pay the -added tax- on any fatty food item.

See how wonderful and "Ambitious" this plan is?

Government Mules

The common man does not do what is right for the society they live in. They do what is cheaper and more convenient for themselves. That tendency to be selfish is human nature and I do not deny that I myself can be very selfish. That is where govern-ment can play a role in encouraging, offering incentives and punitive measures to change the society.

Do you argue with taxes on cigarettes and alcohol? They are unhealthy to the individual and those around them. They drain health care resources. It is a selfish choice to not give up smoking but the government has seen that people need a little extra incentive, financially to quit.

[GaryC 7]

Screw solar, wind, tide and geothermal. This is the future and the savior of our planet.

https://lasers.llnl.gov/

Everything else just takes attention away from the real long term solution.

[maya62 7]

Apparently, the islands are going to show us how it's done on a small scale first... here are two projects that are complete, and as far as I know, successful:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/27861109/

http://www.reuters.com/article/environment...862419820080818

And here's one that's in the pipeline:

http://www.seattlepi.com/local/66243_vashon12.shtml

[fozzie 41]

Screw solar, wind, tide and geothermal. This is the future and the savior of our planet.

https://lasers.llnl.gov/

Everything else just takes attention away from the real long term solution.

Interesting, but it sounds potentially dangerous. I have not read up on it in depth but creating a star on a planet could be very dangerous.

What is wrong with solar power?

[DeadPoolX 9]

I'm sure you've all seen the Back To The Future movies, right? In it, Doc Brown uses garbage to power his time machine. The garbage is essentially turned into fuel. I think that's a great idea -- not just for fuel, but power in general. The Earth has more garbage than it can handle (and we're constantly creating more of it!), so why not recycle it all and turn it into a viable energy source?

[Danno 1,228]

It's just that when you read a very enthusiastic article with no hard facts, tend to read it as more BS, plenty of that going around. .........(snip)

Nick I read all the facts I needed to read in the article.

Bottom line, They know when all is said and done, the only way to get people into embracing their "wonder plans" is to punish them if they dont. (Typical big govt)

They plainly admit they will tax (the hell) out of normal cars and.... tax-break electric ones..

The power to tax is the power to enslave.

So why this mirage, as if this is, Kennedy committing to put a man on the moon?

Why don't they commit to building an alternative car which will be cheaper to buy, cheaper to use and just as practical to operate, then FREE PEOPLE that have a choice would willingly buy this product?

Truth is, all the lefties that get aroused over such news stories... and applaud the Govt for for dictating markets and personal lifestyle choices are so seldom taking the lead in their own personal lives.

Noooo, they don't think enough of Electric cars to buy one themselves..... but they want the Govt to force me to buy one.

How many of you who like this move by Sweden have an electric car now yourself?

None of you but you think it is wonderful that the Swedish will have to buy one.

You want the Govt to force people into doing what you yourself will not do.

Hey why don't we come up with an "Ambitious plan" to combat obesity too?

Sure we could simply tax the hell out of food for anyone on the "obesity list".

To buy any food item you must present your -Govt food card- and if yours has an "F" on it (for fat of course) then you pay the -added tax- on any fatty food item.

See how wonderful and "Ambitious" this plan is?

Government Mules

The common man does not do what is right for the society they live in. They do what is cheaper and more convenient for themselves. That tendency to be selfish is human nature and I do not deny that I myself can be very selfish. That is where govern-ment can play a role in encouraging, offering incentives and punitive measures to change the society.

Do you argue with taxes on cigarettes and alcohol? They are unhealthy to the individual and those around them. They drain health care resources. It is a selfish choice to not give up smoking but the government has seen that people need a little extra incentive, financially to quit.

Yes I absolutely do object to using the tax code to punish certain behaviors while dismissing others.

Tax smokes and beer the same as any other item. Why are you taxing beer but not McDonalds?

Why are you taxing Winstons but not Ring-Dings?

This concept that the Govt will decide what you drive eat, read, and where to live ...all by simply taxing you into conformity is soft totalitarianism.

You are giving George Bush way to much power over your life. (Or Obama)

There are certain products, items which can be banned for a good reason... but this would be a big step and would require a darn good reason to ban something, but to use the tax code is a subtle submission to allowing Govt way to much power to incrementally work it's way into every corner of life.

Think about where different political parties could go with this.

[fozzie 41]

It's just that when you read a very enthusiastic article with no hard facts, tend to read it as more BS, plenty of that going around. .........(snip)

Nick I read all the facts I needed to read in the article.

Bottom line, They know when all is said and done, the only way to get people into embracing their "wonder plans" is to punish them if they dont. (Typical big govt)

They plainly admit they will tax (the hell) out of normal cars and.... tax-break electric ones..

The power to tax is the power to enslave.

So why this mirage, as if this is, Kennedy committing to put a man on the moon?

Why don't they commit to building an alternative car which will be cheaper to buy, cheaper to use and just as practical to operate, then FREE PEOPLE that have a choice would willingly buy this product?

Truth is, all the lefties that get aroused over such news stories... and applaud the Govt for for dictating markets and personal lifestyle choices are so seldom taking the lead in their own personal lives.

Noooo, they don't think enough of Electric cars to buy one themselves..... but they want the Govt to force me to buy one.

How many of you who like this move by Sweden have an electric car now yourself?

None of you but you think it is wonderful that the Swedish will have to buy one.

You want the Govt to force people into doing what you yourself will not do.

Hey why don't we come up with an "Ambitious plan" to combat obesity too?

Sure we could simply tax the hell out of food for anyone on the "obesity list".

To buy any food item you must present your -Govt food card- and if yours has an "F" on it (for fat of course) then you pay the -added tax- on any fatty food item.

See how wonderful and "Ambitious" this plan is?

Government Mules

The common man does not do what is right for the society they live in. They do what is cheaper and more convenient for themselves. That tendency to be selfish is human nature and I do not deny that I myself can be very selfish. That is where govern-ment can play a role in encouraging, offering incentives and punitive measures to change the society.

Do you argue with taxes on cigarettes and alcohol? They are unhealthy to the individual and those around them. They drain health care resources. It is a selfish choice to not give up smoking but the government has seen that people need a little extra incentive, financially to quit.

Yes I absolutely do object to using the tax code to punish certain behaviors while dismissing others.

Tax smokes and beer the same as any other item. Why are you taxing beer but not McDonalds?

Why are you taxing Winstons but not Ring-Dings?

This concept that the Govt will decide what you drive eat, read, and where to live ...all by simply taxing you into conformity is soft totalitarianism.

You are giving George Bush way to much power over your life. (Or Obama)

There are certain products, items which can be banned for a good reason... but this would be a big step and would require a darn good reason to ban something, but to use the tax code is a subtle submission to allowing Govt way to much power to incrementally work it's way into every corner of life.

Think about where different political parties could go with this.

So you agree that cigarettes and alcohol should be taxed? Do you also agre with the reasoning behind it? The government is elected to govern. If you don't like what they do, elect someone else.

[GaryC 7]

Screw solar, wind, tide and geothermal. This is the future and the savior of our planet.

https://lasers.llnl.gov/

Everything else just takes attention away from the real long term solution.

Interesting, but it sounds potentially dangerous. I have not read up on it in depth but creating a star on a planet could be very dangerous.

What is wrong with solar power?

Solar is just too inefficient. You would have to carpet most of our deserts with solar arrays to make much of a dent. For local use solar can be used but at the moment it is very expensive and the cost outlay is about even with the savings.

There is nothing dangerous about N-Fusion. There is no radiation to speak of and if there is a problem you just turn off the lasers and everything stops. There isn't any danger of an explosion or the reaction getting away from the operators. They are not really making a sun, just using the same reaction the sun uses to create energy. The sun keeps its reaction going by the huge mass of its body to squeeze the atoms together to fuse. A fusion reactor uses lasers and magnetic fields to make them fuse. Turn off the containment and it just stops.

[fozzie 41]

Screw solar, wind, tide and geothermal. This is the future and the savior of our planet.

https://lasers.llnl.gov/

Everything else just takes attention away from the real long term solution.

Interesting, but it sounds potentially dangerous. I have not read up on it in depth but creating a star on a planet could be very dangerous.

What is wrong with solar power?

Solar is just too inefficient. You would have to carpet most of our deserts with solar arrays to make much of a dent. For local use solar can be used but at the moment it is very expensive and the cost outlay is about even with the savings.

There is nothing dangerous about N-Fusion. There is no radiation to speak of and if there is a problem you just turn off the lasers and everything stops. There isn't any danger of an explosion or the reaction getting away from the operators. They are not really making a sun, just using the same reaction the sun uses to create energy. The sun keeps its reaction going by the huge mass of its body to squeeze the atoms together to fuse. A fusion reactor uses lasers and magnetic fields to make them fuse. Turn off the containment and it just stops.

Sounds too perfect, I'll have to dig a little deeper when I have some time. From your initial posting you indicated that it is underfunded and needs serious investment? This is no different to solar power. Solar power can be more efficient. It can be smaller. It just needs more investment and...some help from the government. I Know your reaction to government intervention but sometimes it takes government intervention to drive a new market. Lets look at building regulations: If you make it mandatory that all new buildings have solar panels then the demand will increase. Money wil lbe injected into the technology to allow it to become better and more efficient. Supply wil lincrease and costs will drop. We don't need the desert to be covered with solar panels if every building has them and can meet its own energy needs. Just a thought, not a perfect solution but the sun is an abundant energy source, if it runs out of juice we are ###### anyway.

[GaryC 7]

Screw solar, wind, tide and geothermal. This is the future and the savior of our planet.

https://lasers.llnl.gov/

Everything else just takes attention away from the real long term solution.

Interesting, but it sounds potentially dangerous. I have not read up on it in depth but creating a star on a planet could be very dangerous.

What is wrong with solar power?

Solar is just too inefficient. You would have to carpet most of our deserts with solar arrays to make much of a dent. For local use solar can be used but at the moment it is very expensive and the cost outlay is about even with the savings.

There is nothing dangerous about N-Fusion. There is no radiation to speak of and if there is a problem you just turn off the lasers and everything stops. There isn't any danger of an explosion or the reaction getting away from the operators. They are not really making a sun, just using the same reaction the sun uses to create energy. The sun keeps its reaction going by the huge mass of its body to squeeze the atoms together to fuse. A fusion reactor uses lasers and magnetic fields to make them fuse. Turn off the containment and it just stops.

Sounds too perfect, I'll have to dig a little deeper when I have some time. From your initial posting you indicated that it is underfunded and needs serious investment? This is no different to solar power. Solar power can be more efficient. It can be smaller. It just needs more investment and...some help from the government. I Know your reaction to government intervention but sometimes it takes government intervention to drive a new market. Lets look at building regulations: If you make it mandatory that all new buildings have solar panels then the demand will increase. Money wil lbe injected into the technology to allow it to become better and more efficient. Supply wil lincrease and costs will drop. We don't need the desert to be covered with solar panels if every building has them and can meet its own energy needs. Just a thought, not a perfect solution but the sun is an abundant energy source, if it runs out of juice we are ###### anyway.

Please do dig deeper. You will find that if we can perfect N-fusion that all other alternative energy sources are redundant. It makes more sense to bring the equivalent to the sun here rather than trying to convert the energy that shines on our planet. It is just more efficient. It would also be cheaper than papering every rooftop with solar cells that only work for half the day and a basement full of batteries to run things when it's dark.

BTW, look at the link again. It is a government web site. This is funded by the Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory. IMO it is a very good use of public money.

[fozzie 41]

Please do dig deeper. You will find that if we can perfect N-fusion that all other alternative energy sources are redundant. It makes more sense to bring the equivalent to the sun here rather than trying to convert the energy that shines on our planet. It is just more efficient. It would also be cheaper than papering every rooftop with solar cells that only work for half the day and a basement full of batteries to run things when it's dark.

BTW, look at the link again. It is a government web site. This is funded by the Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory. IMO it is a very good use of public money.

Gary,

This is from that website you linked to.

"With the appropriate research, development and engineering program, LIFE engines could begin to provide electricity to U.S. consumers within 20 years, and could provide a very significant fraction of U.S. and international electricity demand by 2100."

Thats a long time! Solar concentration or photovoltaic cells could be developed in that time too.

[Heracles 417]

Has anyone every wondered about the problem with transmission? How would the grid handle electric cars when the system here still use antiquated 110v. At least jump to 220 or 240V (aussie style). Without some serious network upgrade its not going to happen.

PS the higher the voltage the more efficient use of power. Don't believe me? check out your PC power supply. Its efficiency increase when running on a 220/240 system.

Edited April 1, 2009 by Constellation