Prison Reform Now

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

And the dismal human rights record no doubt...

A few people (and I suspect it is only a few) seem to idolise totalitarian governments and military enforcement of law. In a country with democratic traditions (or at least pretensions of democracy) that's rather worrying.

[justashooter 430]

And the dismal human rights record no doubt...

A few people (and I suspect it is only a few) seem to idolise totalitarian governments and military enforcement of law. In a country with democratic traditions (or at least pretensions of democracy) that's rather worrying.

you just failed the citizenship test. America is not a democracy. it is a republic. the majority does not rule. elected representation rules in it's stead. and with the way the elections are going lately, we might as well be in a dictatorship.

truely stated, i felt quite free in china, but i was a super-persona in china, as an American with 25 million dollars contracts in the average year at one of henan province's largest SOE. that being said, my wife, a mere peon before i met her, has said that she rarely felt oppressed.

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

And the dismal human rights record no doubt...

A few people (and I suspect it is only a few) seem to idolise totalitarian governments and military enforcement of law. In a country with democratic traditions (or at least pretensions of democracy) that's rather worrying.

you just failed the citizenship test. America is not a democracy. it is a republic. the majority does not rule. elected representation rules in it's stead. and with the way the elections are going lately, we might as well be in a dictatorship.

truely stated, i felt quite free in china, but i was a super-persona in china, as an American with 25 million dollars contracts in the average year at one of henan province's largest SOE. that being said, my wife, a mere peon before i met her, has said that she rarely felt oppressed.

You failed reading comprehension - "democratic traditions" is what I said.

[Heracles 417]

Yes, I absolutely think that the American penal system should be thoroughly reformed. However, how that can be achieved when each state is allowed to set such different standards is totally beyond me.

I am not trying to be snarky here but to answer your question, our government is set up as a union of states. Each state has the right as spelled out under the constitution to make its own laws as determined by the residents of that state. The federal government is not allowed to impose laws on a state unless that subject is expressly allowed under the constitution. In theory each state is its own government with the federal government only stepping in when the constitution allows it.

You guys talk about the constitution like it's the holy grail. It is a document which was designed to deal with the issues of the time. Ironically, its vagueness has led to a lot of problems you are now experiencing in this country. Like 1st, 2nd, 5th amendment BS.

States rights are not efficient and a huge source of weakness for this country. To make things worse you also have counties and their rights and all that waste. Counties running the school systems and police is just silly. Extremely inefficient and bureaucratic. Something I thought republicans hated. Most successful countries around the world are federally oriented. Successful in terms of 'we the people' not we the handful of billionaires, while the rest are dirt poor. Sorry Gary but that is the truth. Don't look at the Phillis mate. Go have a look at Canada or Australia and then come tell me how well the system is working here. We don't have Limbaughs there talking #######. Our conservatives actually cut bureaucracy, merged counties and invested in the country. Which is why we have some of the best infrastructure in the world. Which is why Caterpillar is getting so much business from there.

If your schools and Police, for example, were run on a state level they would be much more efficient. There would be millions more money available to pump back into the system. Money saved from removing the bureaucratic duplication of each county.

For example:

There are approx 3,441 counties in the US. Lets assume the superintendents and police commissioners each earn $100K, though it's probably more. $688,200,000 is spent on their salaries alone. Now add in all of the other support staff for each county. That works out to be billions of taxpayer money going down the drain. Whereas if they where operating on a state level, like in most other modern countries living in 2009, even if we paid them $500K each (so we hired the best) the costs would be reduced to $50 million. Leaving $630 million to be pumped back into the system. Just think of what $630,000,000 could do for schools and the police. And that is on their salaries alone. Now add the cost of running each counties police and school system. You guys would have the best schools and most well equipped and well paid police and teachers in the world. Win / win for the tax payer and the community.

Can you imagine the military was state run let alone county run? Soldiers would be using pee-shooters. But on a federal level the country is utilizing its resources and buying power to deliver a strong and efficient military. Much in the same way large corporations use their national and global presence to succeed.

Edited April 1, 2009 by Constellation

[DeadPoolX 9]

Yes, I absolutely think that the American penal system should be thoroughly reformed. However, how that can be achieved when each state is allowed to set such different standards is totally beyond me.

I am not trying to be snarky here but to answer your question, our government is set up as a union of states. Each state has the right as spelled out under the constitution to make its own laws as determined by the residents of that state. The federal government is not allowed to impose laws on a state unless that subject is expressly allowed under the constitution. In theory each state is its own government with the federal government only stepping in when the constitution allows it.

You guys talk about the constitution like it's the holy grail. It is a document which was designed to deal with the issues of the time. Ironically, its vagueness has led to a lot of problems you are now experiencing in this country. Like 1st, 2nd, 5th amendment BS.

I wouldn't go so far as to say the U.S. Constitution is like our "Holy Grail," but it is extremely important to Americans and the United States as a whole. It's our whole blueprint for the country and details some of our most basic rights. It's what separated the U.S. from Great Britain at the time. It's significant on both a personal and historical level.

[Heracles 417]

Now with regards to the topic, libs alike Steven are barking up the wrong tree again.

First thing, prevention is better, cheaper and much easier than cure. Which means you need to proactively monitor society to prevent the crime. Is it going to happen? not a chance. Your ALCU's would rather people burn the country down than allow the police to proactively enforce the laws. Which goes back to the constitution of course. Then you have the 1st amendment you ain't telling me what to do types. There goes that proactive measure too. Assisting the community, not going to happen because my repub buds are against welfare. Restricting rubbish from polluting the community? not going to happen as we saw in the other thread. Legalizing drugs as Steven suggest? well, if you think your society is bad now. Wait until you legalize drugs. Even the president will marry me for a Visa to AUS.

After they commit the crime. Throwing them in prison does not work as it allows them to intermingle with other crims and only build connections. Therefore, come out even worse. Once again thanks to your ACLU types prison has become a resort. God forbid you take away the rights from someone who has raped 20 women and children. That's not humane you know.

Hence nothing will change.

[justashooter 430]

You guys talk about the constitution like it's the holy grail. It is a document which was designed to deal with the issues of the time. Ironically, its vagueness has led to a lot of problems you are now experiencing in this country. Like 1st, 2nd, 5th amendment BS.

I wouldn't go so far as to say the U.S. Constitution is like our "Holy Grail," but it is extremely important to Americans and the United States as a whole. It's our whole blueprint for the country and details some of our most basic rights. It's what separated the U.S. from Great Britain at the time. It's significant on both a personal and historical level.

the constitution is an enumeration of the restraints the representatives of the confederated states felt the federal government should be bound by. it is the only thing between freedom and tyranny, except for the men who have shed their blood to water the tree of liberty, and those who are willing to.

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

Now with regards to the topic, libs alike Steven are barking up the wrong tree again.

First thing, prevention is better, cheaper and much easier than cure. Which means you need to proactively monitor society to prevent the crime. Is it going to happen? not a chance. Your ALCU's would rather people burn the country down than allow the police to proactively enforce the laws. Which goes back to the constitution of course. Then you have the 1st amendment you ain't telling me what to do types. There goes that proactive measure too. Assisting the community, not going to happen because my repub buds are against welfare. Restricting rubbish from polluting the community? not going to happen as we saw in the other thread. Legalizing drugs as Steven suggest? well, if you think your society is bad now. Wait until you legalize drugs. Even the president will marry me for a Visa to AUS.

After they commit the crime. Throwing them in prison does not work as it allows them to intermingle with other crims and only build connections. Therefore, come out even worse. Once again thanks to your ACLU types prison has become a resort. God forbid you take away the rights from someone who has raped 20 women and children. That's not humane you know.

Hence nothing will change.

So basically you can't do implement your totalitarian martial law society because of the constitution.

Imagine that...

[Heracles 417]

So basically you can't do implement your totalitarian martial law society because of the constitution.

Imagine that...

Is the UK or Australia totalitarian? Do the police have more rights to prevent crime than they do here? The list goes on but you seem to play dumb.

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

So basically you can't do implement your totalitarian martial law society because of the constitution.

Imagine that...

Is the UK or Australia totalitarian? Do the police have more rights to prevent crime than they do here? The list goes on but you seem to play dumb.

Well they certainly don't trump up the justice systems of Saudi Arabia or Iraq under Saddam as model examples of how to run a society.

And there's very little hand-wringing and fist shaking over the authorities inability to beat someone half to death with a rubber hose, or torture them with electricity.

[Heracles 417]

You guys talk about the constitution like it's the holy grail. It is a document which was designed to deal with the issues of the time. Ironically, its vagueness has led to a lot of problems you are now experiencing in this country. Like 1st, 2nd, 5th amendment BS.

I wouldn't go so far as to say the U.S. Constitution is like our "Holy Grail," but it is extremely important to Americans and the United States as a whole. It's our whole blueprint for the country and details some of our most basic rights. It's what separated the U.S. from Great Britain at the time. It's significant on both a personal and historical level.

At the time it was written it was noble and suited its purpose. Now it holds this country back. If anyone thinks the US constitution is the envy of the world they are on some serious crack. Butt of all jokes certainly but not envied. Separation from England was the worst mistake you guys made.

I have never in my life heard someone in AUS talk about the constitution or their equivalent. We adjust out laws accordingly. No-Brainer really. We also have one of the highest standards of living in the world. Canada is using a similar system which seems to be working well for them too. I don't see people in either country living in tents or being mauled down in the streets. Someone receiving unemployment benefits there is earning more than minimum wage here. Pretty much everything we can compare between the two nations you will find AUS is doing better. Much better actually. While it's not a pissing contest, it just goes to show which system works and which does not. Jump on google maps and check out Australia then compare it the US equivalent. You'll see what I mean.

I am not trying to be offensive but it is what it is. It's called reality. Your country is what you make it.

PS Even our rednecks are smarter. Much richer too. And boy do we have some convict a-s nasty rednecks there. But you know what, they are doing well and not living in some Appalachia.

Edited April 1, 2009 by Constellation

[Heracles 417]

Well they certainly don't trump up the justice systems of Saudi Arabia or Iraq under Saddam as model examples of how to run a society.

And there's very little hand-wringing and fist shaking over the authorities inability to beat someone half to death with a rubber hose, or torture them with electricity.

Come on Six. You know what I mean.

You cannot get away with 1/1,000th the ###### you can get away with here.

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

Well they certainly don't trump up the justice systems of Saudi Arabia or Iraq under Saddam as model examples of how to run a society.

And there's very little hand-wringing and fist shaking over the authorities inability to beat someone half to death with a rubber hose, or torture them with electricity.

Come on Six. You know what I mean.

You cannot get away with 1/1,000th the ###### you can get away with here.

Depends where you live doesn't it.

You can walk in front of a cop car in Britain even if they have the light. You'll get a $70 ticket for if you do that in LA.

Cops in certain parts of this country are much stricter than they are in most parts of the UK.

As I said to you earlier - whenever martial law is declared in a country, the crime rate drops to nothing. That doesn't make a fascist police state an inherently good idea.

[Heracles 417]

Depends where you live doesn't it.

You can walk in front of a cop car in Britain even if they have the light. You'll get a $70 ticket for if you do that in LA.

Cops in certain parts of this country are much stricter than they are in most parts of the UK.

As I said to you earlier - whenever martial law is declared in a country, the crime rate drops to nothing. That doesn't make a fascist police state an inherently good idea.

Yeah I thought you lived in Birmingham there.

Why the extreme? The second someone mentions law enforcement you make it out as if this will mean the Children of men or V for Vendetta scenario. Talk about fear mongering but anyway. The reality still is that the government and police there have much more power to prevent crime than they do here. Especially in Australia. One of many reason for the ridiculously low murder rate there.

Edited April 1, 2009 by Constellation

[one...two...tree 2,762]

Around, around the mulberry bush, the monkey chased the weasel.