Bad news for the AWB supporters

[Ban Hammer 13,469]

Yank yank Charles, Yank yank.

Where's Almaty? He's the only responsible gun owner on here, well that I know of

maybe you can define what you think is a responsible gun owner.

OMG are you and MC about to start another one of your infamous pissing contests?

Nope, I gave him his stroke for the day, if he doesn't want it that is up to him. Not interested.

but no body strokes it as well as you do!

[The_Dude 1,142]

Oh charles everyone knows you like to stroke your own

[Ban Hammer 13,469]

Oh charles everyone knows you like to stroke your own

covered in the previous reply. but good try.

[Gary and Alla 3,694]

Mitt Romney on Gun Control

Support the 2nd Amendment AND the assault weapon ban

I do support the Second Amendment. I would have signed the assault weapon ban that came to his desk. I said I would have supported that and signed a similar bill in our state. It was a bill worked out, by the way, between pro-gun lobby and anti-gun lobby individuals. Both sides of the issue came together and found a way to provide relaxation in licensing requirements and allow more people to--to have guns for their own legal purposes. So we signed that in Massachusetts, and I’d support that at the federal level. It did not pass at the federal level. I do not believe we need new legislation. I do not support any new legislation of an assault weapon ban nature, including that against semiautomatic weapons. We have laws in place that, if they’re implemented & enforced, will provide the protection and the safety of the American people. I do support the right of individuals to bear arms, whether for hunting purposes or for protection purposes or any other reasons. That’s the right that people have Source: 2008 GOP debate in Boca Raton Florida Jan 24, 2008

Well first, there never WAS an "assualt weapons ban" there WAS a moratorium on the manufacture of certain new "assault weapons" and high capacity magazines for 10 years. Any rifles and high capacity magazines existing before the ban were exempted and could be freely bought, sold, traded. Many of the weapons got around the law by simply changing names and dropping some obscure, and rather useless, feature. The Colt Ar-15 became the "Sporter A2" and they removed the bayonet lug and flash hider. WOW, a sudden decrease in drive-by bayonetings was the result. As far as magazines, again any magazine made before the ban was legal. Clinton, after pushing congress to pass the ban before summer recess (because "criminals don't take vacation") then went on vacation and did not sign the law into effect for two months! Way to go Billy Boy. In the meantime the manufacturers worked three shifts stamping out and injection molding large capacity magazines and rifle manufacturers changed all operations to the making of rifle "receivers" (the serial numbered part that constitutes a "rifle") so the effect was not one single firearm was taken off the street and there was AMPLE supply of large capacity magazines and "pre-ban" rifles all throughout the period of moratorium. In fact, there were so many magazines available that the market price of them never really increased during the 10 years of the moratorium. That says a LOT. Can you think of anything else that would be in abundant supply for NEW purchase 10 years after they ceased manufacture? Magazines can be made about as quickly as your copier makes prints, they are stamped sheet metal and machines make them at rates of thousands per hour. Rifle receivers take a little more time, but with modern CNC machining, not much more. Firearms do not "wear out" unless you shoot them a LOT, and even then a few parts being replaced or a new barrel restores them to like new. ALL the rifles in existance before the ban are still functioning today and will be for 100 years, or more. If you think this is lost on the manufacturers, you are wrong. Commencing with Obamas election they are making and selling these firearms and magazines at record paces. The simple act of electing Obama will increase enormously the amount of these firearms in private hands, and available for future sale. He has done more to spur the sales of these firearms than anyone and the more he talks, the more they make. The industry will probably give him an award for being the single most influential person in the increase of assault weapon manufacture.

The law was never more than a typical Democratic attempt to "look" like they did something. It never could possibly have had any affect on crime, because the law did nothing. I repeat, not a single rifle or high capacity magazine in existance before the "ban" was "banned". Any attempt to re-instate it is simply another attempt to "look" like doing something.

You cannot reduce crime by changing some cosmetics and if I showed you a pre-ban AR15A2 and a Sporter A2 I doubt any one could tell the difference unless they know guns. Functionally, there IS no difference. The rifle has been around since the late 50s, so it is no newcomer. It has been adopted by US sportsman and is now available in many cartridges, many of which are perfectly adequate for hunting large game (though hunting and the second amendment are not releated) and is the overwhelming choice of competitors, almost to the exclusion of any other rifle. I started competitive rifle shooting in the mid 70's when everyone made fun of the "mouse gun", I was using the much more powerful semi-automatic M1 and M14/M1A rifles then. But don't worry, the stocks were made of wood, so they couldn't be used to "assault" anyone. By the late 90s all the other rifles were gone and everyone used an Ar-15 and it was no longer made fun of. Not to mention the fact that there are dozens of other types of semi-auto rifles, while maybe looking more "tame" to someone like Obama or Diane Feinstein, maybe we will let them in on the secret they are functionally identical to so-called assault rifles. A Remington Model 8, first produced in 1906, shoots just as fast and is just as powerful (usually more so, depending on the chambering) as an AR15. Ask Bonnie Parker and Clyde Barrow who were assaulted to death by a Model 8 in 1935 in the hands of Texas Ranger Frank Hammer. The bullets went through them...and both sides of their automobile. That rifle has a wood stock, but it was no consolation to Bonnie & Clyde.

Semi-auto rifles, handguns and shotguns have been in common use since the late-90s. Oh, that would be the 1890's!!! The military, always slow to catch on, didn't adopt a semi-auto handgun until 1911 and didn't adopt the semi-auto rifle until 73 years ago. They haven't looked back. It is preposterous to propose that a genre of firearms more than 100 years old are somehow the reason for crime problems today because somewhere along the line someone added a black fiberglass stock and a carrying handle.

If Obama is "change we can believe in" then he will drop trying to go back to the same old showmanship.

[Gary and Alla 3,694]

The Vast Majority of Americans Want the Assault Weapons Ban Renewed

Asked if they favored or opposed renewing the assault weapons ban, most Americans said they “strongly favored” or “somewhat favored” renewing the ban, as shown in the attached Figure. Sixty-seven percent said they favored renewing the ban, including 57 percent who strongly favor its renewal. A solid majority of gun owners, 56 percent, support renewing the ban, with 45 percent strongly supporting renewal.

http://www.consumerfed.org/pdfs/ASSAULTWEAPONSURVEY2004.pdf

With all due respect...who cares? Your rights to own firearms are not a matter do be decided by poll or votes. The vast majority of Americans would also want warrantless wiretaps, illegal searches of criminals, pornography banned, etc. The bill of rights protects that which is NOT popular, not that which is popular. And as we know, the 2nd amendment is settled law. It protects the individual right to own firearms.

[*Robert* 2]

Wow! Very well written and said, Gary, no kidding. It certainly should give anyone who questions the effectiveness of such a law a lot to think about.

Thanks.

[Gary and Alla 3,694]

What defines "common use" though - what the police use, or what are most often used in crime?

read the decision, englishman. in America common use is what the people have.

http://www.scotusblog.com/wp/wp-content/up...8/06/07-290.pdf

you don't like it, you can always leave.

If they weren't in common use, who would even discuss them?

[*Robert* 2]

The Vast Majority of Americans Want the Assault Weapons Ban Renewed

Asked if they favored or opposed renewing the assault weapons ban, most Americans said they "strongly favored" or "somewhat favored" renewing the ban, as shown in the attached Figure. Sixty-seven percent said they favored renewing the ban, including 57 percent who strongly favor its renewal. A solid majority of gun owners, 56 percent, support renewing the ban, with 45 percent strongly supporting renewal.

http://www.consumerfed.org/pdfs/ASSAULTWEAPONSURVEY2004.pdf

With all due respect...who cares? Your rights to own firearms are not a matter do be decided by poll or votes. The vast majority of Americans would also want warrantless wiretaps, illegal searches of criminals, pornography banned, etc. The bill of rights protects that which is NOT popular, not that which is popular. And as we know, the 2nd amendment is settled law. It protects the individual right to own firearms.

It's that kind of logical argument, Gary, that I can agree with and understand. Not arguments of emotion. Once again, well said.

(what took you so long to post?)

[Gary and Alla 3,694]

Majority of U.S. Adults Favors Continuing Ban on Sales of Assault Rifles, According to Latest Harris Poll

a small poll done by phone in 2004? what demographic (urban, rural, southern, northern, western, eastern)? we all know phone polls are no good anymore. they haven't been reliable since the invention of the cell phone. time of day that calls are made and nature of the questions asked in the poll are also strongly perjorative.

not gonna do the research, but here's an interesting one:

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m156...v25/ai_14536863

"Do it for our kids." This is the new slogan of the gun-control movement. (See "Gun Play," July.) And according to a poll released last summer, most Americans find it a persuasive argument for a national ban on handguns.

A Lou Harris telephone survey of 1,250 adults commissioned by the Chicago-based Joyce Foundation found that 52 percent of Americans favor a ban on handgun possession, except with special court approval. The New York Times and Nightline trumpeted the poll as marking a significant turnaround in public opinion.

But reporters failed to note that the survey artificially inflated support for a handgun ban with a series of skewed queries and tendentious assertions about how guns threaten children. Before respondents were asked about gun control, they heard 19 questions that mentioned children; of these, 12 mentioned or alluded to violence, and 10 explicitly connected guns to the harming of children, including suicide, homicide, and accidents.

Justashooter, if I may suggest. Polls simply don't matter. It is not an opinion poll issue. It is the right of all Americans and they don't have to like it. I simply would not waste time on such a discussion.

[Gary and Alla 3,694]

The Vast Majority of Americans Want the Assault Weapons Ban Renewed

Asked if they favored or opposed renewing the assault weapons ban, most Americans said they "strongly favored" or "somewhat favored" renewing the ban, as shown in the attached Figure. Sixty-seven percent said they favored renewing the ban, including 57 percent who strongly favor its renewal. A solid majority of gun owners, 56 percent, support renewing the ban, with 45 percent strongly supporting renewal.

http://www.consumerfed.org/pdfs/ASSAULTWEAPONSURVEY2004.pdf

With all due respect...who cares? Your rights to own firearms are not a matter do be decided by poll or votes. The vast majority of Americans would also want warrantless wiretaps, illegal searches of criminals, pornography banned, etc. The bill of rights protects that which is NOT popular, not that which is popular. And as we know, the 2nd amendment is settled law. It protects the individual right to own firearms.

It's that kind of logical argument, Gary, that I can agree with and understand. Not arguments of emotion. Once again, well said.

(what took you so long to post?)

Silly me, it is an immigration website so I was hanging out in the immigration forums.

[Gary and Alla 3,694]

You are defensive aren't you?

I must say I am interested in what my nationality has to do with anything, though I doubt I'll get a satisfactory answer from you, American.

Like it or leave. Interesting if juvenile reasoning.

just giving you a choice, friend. your prejudices are based on your country of acculturation. if you wanna be an American, you'll have to leave your english reasoning behind. if you just wanna stay a visitor, well, that's fine by me, too, but in that case, keep your thoughts about America to yourself.

*You* are giving *me* a choice? How generous of you...

When did you become the arbiter of what a person can think and say in a free society?

I'm not obligated to do anything you say. That must really burn you up inside...

And no - I won't keep my thoughts about America to myself. You won't, so why should I?

You see, this is exactly my point. No, "he" CANNOT you a choice, the fact that you are a human being gives you the choice. It is the principle of our government, and constitution, that choice is not granted by anyone or by the government. It is your right as a free person to own a firearm, even one someone chooses to label an "assualt weapon". That cannot be "given" OR taken away, by the government or any person. It is yours by virtue of being alive and free.

You can stay, or leave. Love it, or not. And you will always have the right to own an assualt weapon, you can choose not to own one for yourself, but not for me. No more than anyone can give you the choice to stay or leave.

[Gary and Alla 3,694]

Shooter, you started a thread implying that there is little support for an assault weapons ban. I've given you evidence that at least back when the issue was up before Congress the last time, there was wide support. So if you're going to play the game of just who supports what here, accept that I can play it too.

And I am putting forth the argument it doesn't matter. Rights do not have to be "supported" by popular opinion. The more popular opinon turns against a right, the more important it becomes. It is, in fact, arrogant for anyone to even take a poll on the subject. Should we take a poll on which religions we would like banned? Would it matter? What if there was an overwhelming majority that wanted certain radio or television prgrams banned? Should we? No, we cannot. Moot point entirely.

If justashooter is wrong, it is only because he would entertain such a discussion.

[one...two...tree 2,762]

The Vast Majority of Americans Want the Assault Weapons Ban Renewed

Asked if they favored or opposed renewing the assault weapons ban, most Americans said they "strongly favored" or "somewhat favored" renewing the ban, as shown in the attached Figure. Sixty-seven percent said they favored renewing the ban, including 57 percent who strongly favor its renewal. A solid majority of gun owners, 56 percent, support renewing the ban, with 45 percent strongly supporting renewal.

http://www.consumerfed.org/pdfs/ASSAULTWEAPONSURVEY2004.pdf

With all due respect...who cares? Your rights to own firearms are not a matter do be decided by poll or votes. The vast majority of Americans would also want warrantless wiretaps, illegal searches of criminals, pornography banned, etc. The bill of rights protects that which is NOT popular, not that which is popular. And as we know, the 2nd amendment is settled law. It protects the individual right to own firearms.

Only if you believe the 2nd Amendment to be absolute - that no regulation or restrictions on what kind of arms an individual has a right to bear. If you take 2nd Amendment in a literal interpretation, then a citizen should have the right to carry a nuclear bomb in a briefcase if they so choose.

[natty bumppo 297]

The Vast Majority of Americans Want the Assault Weapons Ban Renewed

Asked if they favored or opposed renewing the assault weapons ban, most Americans said they "strongly favored" or "somewhat favored" renewing the ban, as shown in the attached Figure. Sixty-seven percent said they favored renewing the ban, including 57 percent who strongly favor its renewal. A solid majority of gun owners, 56 percent, support renewing the ban, with 45 percent strongly supporting renewal.

http://www.consumerfed.org/pdfs/ASSAULTWEAPONSURVEY2004.pdf

With all due respect...who cares? Your rights to own firearms are not a matter do be decided by poll or votes. The vast majority of Americans would also want warrantless wiretaps, illegal searches of criminals, pornography banned, etc. The bill of rights protects that which is NOT popular, not that which is popular. And as we know, the 2nd amendment is settled law. It protects the individual right to own firearms.

Only if you believe the 2nd Amendment to be absolute - that no regulation or restrictions on what kind of arms an individual has a right to bear. If you take 2nd Amendment in a literal interpretation, then a citizen should have the right to carry a nuclear bomb in a briefcase if they so choose.

Stephen,

Historical context was provided in another of your "gun" threads. it will also serve you well to understand a little history. I suggest reading ... unless you like to be spoon fed.

[one...two...tree 2,762]

Stephen,

Historical context was provided in another of your "gun" threads. it will also serve you well to understand a little history. I suggest reading ... unless you like to be spoon fed.

Read my response here.