Israeli Soldiers Allege Indiscriminate Killing in Gaza

[PalestineMyHeart 1,897]

Read what I wrote more carefully please. :-) Things such as this alleged 'Israeli soldier' claim happened can, and do, happen in war. I only doubted the stories as proof positive of war crimes, and simply said as coming from a questionable source, they may or may not be true.

Israeli soldiers are “questionable sources” if they speak of wrongdoing by the IDF ? Interesting…

(BTW, I don’t see you questioning anything claimed by the “unnamed Israeli source” in the thread about alleged TNT on sheep in Gaza…)

I read what you write quite carefully. You originally said:

I am thinking NOT FIRING ROCKETS INDISCRIMINATELY into Israel could have avoided the whole thing... But that is just me I suppose, being logical where no logic apparently can exist.

So, as I said, you blamed the war in Gaza on the Palestinians.

Next you said:

But please be realistic about the reality that Israel exists, will continue to exist, and the Palestinians and their leaders, as well as their Arab brothers have done virtually nothing to help create a peace since 1947.

I pointed out to you that in fact, the Palestinian Authority has *already* officially recognized Israel’s existence, in writing, signed by Yasser Arafat.

Since you brought up the subject, implying that Palestinians had not recognized Israel, and as if this was standing in the way of peace, I asked you to name the Israeli leader who has officially recognized Palestine. Still waiting for your answer…

But the fact remains, destroying Israel, and getting a lot of Palestinians killed doing it, NOT creating an independent state of Palestine has sadly been the focus of Palestinian and Arab leaders and self destructive. They are not working at creating a true peaceful coexistence.

In fact, the record shows that for the past 60 years, it is *Israel* that has done everything it can to avoid, prevent, stall and delay any agreement that would allow a viable Palestinian state. Israel refuses to abide by UN resolutions stating that it must remove its soldiers and settlers from the illegally occupied Palestinian lands (as well as in Syrian and Lebanese territory.) Israel refuses to hold final negotiations, refusing to discuss any of the core issues that are key to peace negoations: the removal of the illegal settlements, the status of Jerusalem, compensation for the refugees, and the final borders.

[PalestineMyHeart 1,897]

Next you try to wave off Israel’s crimes with platitudes about “wrongs were done on both sides” – as if a violent illegal occupier is somehow morally equivalent to the victim of that occupation who fights back with violence.

This is like saying a mugger who violently assaults a victim is no more in the wrong than his victim who fights back with violence.

But even after you wave it off here:

And if we go back to the beginning, we should both understand both sides have done serious wrong.

In your next breath, you go right back to blaming the Palestinians:

Get angry with who you should be angry with, Hamas/Palestinian leadership or lack there of.

Which is it? Make up your mind.

I don't think I have ever demonized Arafat.

Really? This is what you posted a few months back:

Your famous Mr. Arafat came back from a brokered deal and launched another intifada. Again, you fail to see how Palestinian's have kept up their own misery.

(Yes, you were blaming the Palestinians back then, too.)

Although this line is a standard Zionist “talking point,” actually there is no evidence at all that Arafat “launched” or even planned the intifada – most impartial observers conclude that it was a spontaneous community reaction after years of frustration at the stalled peace process while Israel continued to expand its illegal settlements, capped by Ariel Sharon’s controversial entry into the holiest Muslim shrine in Palestine, accompanied by 1000 bodyguards and police in riot gear.

You say that Arafat came "back from a brokered deal,” insinuating that he made an agreement and then reneged. But he never agreed to the proposal at Camp David at all, since it was simply a laundry list of what Israel demanded with absolutely no regard or concession for what Palestinians wanted. I’ve already dealt with the topic several times, so you can do a search of my posts to read them (that is *if* you really wanted to know, which I kinda doubt.)

At times in his career he was probably a bit of demon.

Call a spade a spade. But the fact remains, destroying Israel, and getting a lot of Palestinians killed doing it, NOT creating an independent state of Palestine has sadly been the focus of Palestinian and Arab leaders and self destructive. They are not working at creating a true peaceful coexistence. Given as you so often state, this goes back to 1947, there has been a lot of wrong done on both sides.

This is a neat little trick. Here you segue from your “opinion” of Arafat as “a bit of a demon” into the insinuation that “Palestinian and Arab leaders” (your generic term for Arafat and anyone else who didn’t kowtow to Israel’s demands) were somehow not focused on Palestinian independence. This is not an accurate reflection of the historical record, although it’s yet another Zionist talking point. To put it charitably, most serious middle east scholars do not subscribe to the Zionist interpretation.

You completely fail to recognize the Arab role in the suffering of Palestinian's.

Well, here’s what you fail to recognize:

Palestinians are not conducting an illegal military occupation of Israel.

In fact, while Israel’s cheerleaders point the finger at Palestinians and accuse them of “wanting Israel to be destroyed,” it is Israel that actually *is* destroying Palestine, continuing to illegally expand its territory into Palestinian land.

For the past 60 years, it is the State of Israel that has focused its national energies not on peace, but on the actual systematic destruction of the native people of Palestine in order to drive them from their land and appropriate their property.

So I repeat again for you the cold hard fact that you don’t want to acknowledge:

An illegally occupied people have the *right* to fight their occupiers by any means at their disposal.

Let me spell it out another way - it's quite simple, really:

As long as Israel illegally occupies Palestinian land -- until Israel takes all of its soldiers and its settlers home and ends its military control of almost every aspect of Palestinian life -- until that day, Israel has no grounds whatsoever to be considered “in the right” in this conflict, either morally or legally.

Now – let’s get back to the subject: whether or not Israeli troops committed war crimes in Gaza.

Why shouldn’t the UN or other independent organization be permitted to conduct an investigation into the allegations?

[Hilarious Clinton 452]

The Islamic terrorist organization Hamas ONLY does indiscriminate killing. OPEN YOUR EYES!!!!

[dalegg 143]

I don't know, they seem to have a target at least.

Israeli soldiers' T-shirts

[ready4ONE 5,400]

Somebody has a strategy that is not working W.O.M.... I don't think it is Israel.

Firing INDISCRIMINATE rockets at non-military targets to provoke an Israeli attack, then using the Palestinian people as human shields, all so that you and those who think like you, can claim 'atrocities' is bad strategy. It is what you should be angry with, as I stated earlier.

The article which started this topic is hardly proof positive the allegations made by an anonymous supposed Israeli soldier happened. If they did, then these sorts of things happen when an organized army is continually called in to quell aggression by a guerrilla force of rag tag terrorists. I certainly sympathize with any IDF commander who felt he should err on the side of protecting his troops.

Has it occurred to you, for example, the story of the soldier shooting the 'defenseless little old Palestinian lady' could have been a direct result of the soldier firing on her having witnessed one too many 'defenseless little old Palestinian lady' with a bomb in her burkha killing fellow IDF soldiers and/or civilians? Perhaps there was intelligence regarding being on high alert for the same? The story hardly 'proves' the alleged shooting was unwarranted or unjustified, nor does it prove it even happened.

Over time, some members of my own beloved US Armed forces have committed 'atrocities' in war time. As have members of every major army since the invention of armies. Thus it is generally considered unwise to provoke armed confrontation, as Hamas did, without the ability to truly defend yourself and your people.

Let me be clear, the rocket fire was a ploy to get Israel to react, hoping to get Israeli soldiers to kill Palestinian civilians, and then give people like you the feeling everything is Israels fault because the IDF killed Palestinian civilians. It was a sick strategy, and if it led to atrocities on the part of individual IDF soldiers that would be unfortunate, but it was a strategy which in and of itself was a confirmed atrocity.

[MsMariah 0]

Wow this picture shows distinctly how Israel has encroached. What you call indiscriminate is, from what I understand, intentionally fired at settlements and towns which RECENTLY belonged to Palestinians. I can understand what you say when you say that they are bringing down the iron boots of war without ability to protect themselves let alone the civilians, however, if they don't fight at all... what will they lose next. At this point they are desperate and realize that they can't even keep what they have left unless they fight with everything they have. The fact that they don't have much is also due to the iron tanks and fences and blockades of Israel. Israel has a handle on Gaza and even West Bank, but they don't (or didn't in the case of Iraq) have a handle on bigger threats like Iran and that's why they've been goading US into a war with Iran. So now these iron boots who are US playmates want us to pay the prices of war for their sake alone. Think about all this rationally.

What you're seeing as just a problem for Hamas and Gaza is really, really going to be about your children, and your future. Maybe you should not just side with the powers that be because they are winning now. Maybe you should look to the future and imagine if you want your child to be an Israeli soldier in a war where people can actually fight back and kill him/her or you want your child to commit war crimes for the sake of an occupying conqeurer? Don't look so scornfully on what appears to be a weaker people, because one day it could be that you are the weaker person to an oppressive occupier and conquerer in what used to be your own land. By all standards, Gazan's are so strong for holding on and holding out for as long as they have. And I'm so sure they will all resist til their death to stay on the scraps of land they have left. May God bless them and keep them.

[mawilson 2,133]

How much did Hamas pay them to say that?

[Hilarious Clinton 452]

How much did Hamas pay them to say that?

They'll be reimbursed in paradise. Palestinians voted for Hamas. That makes them weak.

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

That opinion makes you cheap.

[HAL 9000 96]

And unsurprising. Someone needs to enlist in IDF and be off with it.