Since when

[rebeccajo 14]

Of course, the simplest way to handle a situation like the one that precipitated this thread, is to concede, if one is aware that one is only offering anecdotal information, when stacked up against someone who might have more factual offerings!

Agreed.

Additionally, if one is so concerned that the OP's question hasn't been fully answered or correctly answered, than simply PMing them the information that you feel is correct and that which supports your position is probably best. Continuing to retort simply obfuscates the issues. While generally entertaining, the back-and-forth is rarely helpful.

While a PM may be the antithesis of the purpose of this forum, I have seen plenty of parties here claim their sole goal is to help the OP. And if that's the case once a disagreement breaks out, then so be it. Everyone else will be at the loss. But at least the OPs question has been answered.

Though, I do think that a minority on here are around for their own ego, and would rather argue in public for the rest of the population to catch a glimpse of their greatness.

I think you mean well, but for me I will never PM a member with the 'right' answer. For me that is - as you say - the antithesis.

If people had been PM'ing me answers to my questions, I would never have had the pleasure of reading great dialogues where issues were hashed out, problems were solved.

PM'ing is just not a place I can go to. What the hell - I might be wrong with what I tell the person!

[Captain Ewok 1,900]

A very quick thing I just did to address this (in some part) is that the hearts now all hyperlink to:

http://www.visajourney.com/wiki/index.php/...ey_Member_Ranks

I get the Q on what they mean sometimes... now people will simply need to click on them to get the list.

Captain, I would recommend the wording "The number of "blue blocks" and "hearts" in a Member's profile simply correlates directly to their post count and Member Rank. It is not an indication of anything beyond this" be changed to something more explicit.

ie: It is not an indication of their immigration knowledge or expertise.

Just my opinion.

I have changed to "The number of "blue blocks" and "hearts" in a Member's profile simply correlates directly to their post count and Member Rank. It is not an indication of anything beyond this. This is no way indicates an expertise on any topic or issue with regards to the Forums. "

[pushbrk 13,043]

I say that in order to keep the site a place for "INFORMation" when a discussion quite clearly involves a differing of opinion, then quality citations should be posted to demonstrate that the opinion being offered is substantiated. If one can't post a citation, then they should be told to ####### off and stop spewing #######.

On the surface, that sounds like a good solution. However, there's a wealth of anecdotal knowledge that would go to waste under such a system, I dare say, much of it your own.

Well, would you rest your case on that "wealth" of knowledge? Does it have an intrinsic value, if it is merely a casual observation? And I will overlook your "dig" for the sake of permitting what I deem a valuable exercise to continue without interruption or closing yet another thread.

It's a compliment. I don't want to handicap anybody by requiring citations, you included.

So this will be an occasion where I am lucky to have some back story on this. Push, obviously this is a jab at a previous statement by Diad in another thread. I think we both know when and where. This is the exact type of personal prodding that I think needs to stop.

Certainly not anything conscious. Please take the statement at face value. There's a lot of anecdotal knowledge out there and I would hate to have it rendered useless here by requiring citations when there's disagreement. Some things just can't be cited. There's just too much subjective decision making throughout the process to provide a citation for every possibility there may be disagreement about, and "Diad" is one of the members with valuable knowledge. If she's only willing to help when she can provide a citation, I say let that be her choice, not one imposed by management.

[Otto 83]

Though, I do think that a minority on here are around for their own ego, and would rather argue in public for the rest of the population to catch a glimpse of their greatness.

Couldn't agree more.

[MrsCat 6]

Of course, the simplest way to handle a situation like the one that precipitated this thread, is to concede, if one is aware that one is only offering anecdotal information, when stacked up against someone who might have more factual offerings!

Agreed.

Additionally, if one is so concerned that the OP's question hasn't been fully answered or correctly answered, than simply PMing them the information that you feel is correct and that which supports your position is probably best. Continuing to retort simply obfuscates the issues. While generally entertaining, the back-and-forth is rarely helpful.

While a PM may be the antithesis of the purpose of this forum, I have seen plenty of parties here claim their sole goal is to help the OP. And if that's the case once a disagreement breaks out, then so be it. Everyone else will be at the loss. But at least the OPs question has been answered.

Though, I do think that a minority on here are around for their own ego, and would rather argue in public for the rest of the population to catch a glimpse of their greatness.

I think you mean well, but for me I will never PM a member with the 'right' answer. For me that is - as you say - the antithesis.

If people had been PM'ing me answers to my questions, I would never have had the pleasure of reading great dialogues where issues were hashed out, problems were solved.

PM'ing is just not a place I can go to. What the hell - I might be wrong with what I tell the person!

Honestly, that is the true mark if you're confident in your answer and whether you stand by it. If you can tell someone what you believe to be correct in private without need for validation of others, then all the better. Especially if you can provide links etc to support your position. If the best someone can come up with is conjecture and "what-ifs" its for the OP to weigh the information and make the final decision to or not to act upon it.

Though, I agree with you entirely, we shouldn't have to PM anyone. Information should stand on its own. If someone has something more valuable to add, then excellent. But sometimes there is a serious case of me-smarter-than-you.

I dunno. I see things your way too. Seems like there's no perfect way to resolve the conflicts around here when egos get involved.

[rebeccajo 14]

Of course, the simplest way to handle a situation like the one that precipitated this thread, is to concede, if one is aware that one is only offering anecdotal information, when stacked up against someone who might have more factual offerings!

Agreed.

Additionally, if one is so concerned that the OP's question hasn't been fully answered or correctly answered, than simply PMing them the information that you feel is correct and that which supports your position is probably best. Continuing to retort simply obfuscates the issues. While generally entertaining, the back-and-forth is rarely helpful.

While a PM may be the antithesis of the purpose of this forum, I have seen plenty of parties here claim their sole goal is to help the OP. And if that's the case once a disagreement breaks out, then so be it. Everyone else will be at the loss. But at least the OPs question has been answered.

Though, I do think that a minority on here are around for their own ego, and would rather argue in public for the rest of the population to catch a glimpse of their greatness.

I think you mean well, but for me I will never PM a member with the 'right' answer. For me that is - as you say - the antithesis.

If people had been PM'ing me answers to my questions, I would never have had the pleasure of reading great dialogues where issues were hashed out, problems were solved.

PM'ing is just not a place I can go to. What the hell - I might be wrong with what I tell the person!

Honestly, that is the true mark if you're confident in your answer and whether you stand by it. If you can tell someone what you believe to be correct in private without need for validation of others, then all the better. Especially if you can provide links etc to support your position. If the best someone can come up with is conjecture and "what-ifs" its for the OP to weigh the information and make the final decision to or not to act upon it.

Though, I agree with you entirely, we shouldn't have to PM anyone. Information should stand on its own. If someone has something more valuable to add, then excellent. But sometimes there is a serious case of me-smarter-than-you.

I dunno. I see things your way too. Seems like there's no perfect way to resolve the conflicts around here when egos get involved.

I understand.

I learned sooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo much early on (and still do) by reading the writings of others who had gone before me. I still read these people on other communities.

I just wouldn't want to miss any learning because the 'good stuff' is buried in PM's.

It's just what works for me. May not be the same for others.

Edited to add - I don't post my answers for 'validation'. I've always made a conscious effort (when posting advice) to only post on topics I am 'good' at. There are other areas I stay away from - mostly because it wasn't 'my' visa type or because it's something that has never fascinated me enough to learn about it.

Edited March 22, 2009 by rebeccajo

[LaL 418]

Honestly, that is the true mark if you're confident in your answer and whether you stand by it. If you can tell someone what you believe to be correct in private without need for validation of others, then all the better.

How many people feel confident in their answers enough to post a reply - only to have another person add a different experience to the conversation? Unless a poster actually comes right out and says "im not too confident in what I am about to say but..." then I would guess that someone answering a post feels they have something valuable to add. PMs just show the amount that someone will go to to try to get their point across - not that they are necessarily confident or I, daresay, even remotely correct.

PMs arent the way to go, however we have several who choose that as another tool and encourage others to do so.

[MrsCat 6]

Honestly, that is the true mark if you're confident in your answer and whether you stand by it. If you can tell someone what you believe to be correct in private without need for validation of others, then all the better.

How many people feel confident in their answers enough to post a reply - only to have another person add a different experience to the conversation? Unless a poster actually comes right out and says "im not too confident in what I am about to say but..." then I would guess that someone answering a post feels they have something valuable to add. PMs just show the amount that someone will go to to try to get their point across - not that they are necessarily confident or I, daresay, even remotely correct.

PMs arent the way to go, however we have several who choose that as another tool and encourage others to do so.

Guess its just my experience. I could care less about winning an argument. And I'd only PM someone an answer that I was confident about. Though, I guess we are talking about irrational needs to win arguments in which case, a PM is not necessarily prudent.

[LaL 418]

Honestly, that is the true mark if you're confident in your answer and whether you stand by it. If you can tell someone what you believe to be correct in private without need for validation of others, then all the better.

How many people feel confident in their answers enough to post a reply - only to have another person add a different experience to the conversation? Unless a poster actually comes right out and says "im not too confident in what I am about to say but..." then I would guess that someone answering a post feels they have something valuable to add. PMs just show the amount that someone will go to to try to get their point across - not that they are necessarily confident or I, daresay, even remotely correct.

PMs arent the way to go, however we have several who choose that as another tool and encourage others to do so.

Guess its just my experience. I could care less about winning an argument. And I'd only PM someone an answer that I was confident about. Though, I guess we are talking about irrational needs to win arguments in which case, a PM is not necessarily prudent.

Its not just about winning the argument though. I have posted many a reply that I was confident about in which someone came along and either corrected or added onto it. Its part of the process and why this site is so successful. It adds to my knowledge base, as well as the readers.

[Holliday 4]

I'm glad that all of these issues are being addressed openly here. I spend a whole lot of time reading and not very much time posting (because I rarely have anything constructive to add), and I've noticed the trend of personality conflicts and bickering getting in the way of advice, and it has been bothering me. Sometimes I see constructive bickering, other times it's just a useless pissing match between people who probably don't know each other in real life, but have decided that they hate each other on the internet. As far as I'm concerned, that's completely ridiculous, and it's a big waste of time.

I see no reason why people can't disagree with each other in a RESPECTFUL manner. We're all adults here, right? To say something like "I disagree. Here's my reason why..." or to say "You're wrong. Here's the right answer..." will both get the same point across, but one is a productive way to answer, and one isn't. There are a lot of issues related to the immigration process that aren't clear cut. Two people with exactly the same circumstances can easily have two very different experiences, right? So the differing opinions are helpful to the person asking the question, because then they know the possibilities of what to expect. For example... Somebody asked about what would happen if they have assumed their husband's last name, but not made the change on their passport, and wanted to know what name would appear on their green card. Some people answered that the name used on the petition and other paperwork would be the name used on the green card. Other people answered that the name on the passport appears on the green card. Both sides were speaking of their own experiences, so neither answer is wrong, but instead a third answer is most helpful: In some cases they use the name from the petition and other paperwork, in others they use the name on the passport. If you want to be sure to have your married name on your green card, the best thing to do is change the passport. No need for bickering, right? In this case, the two opposite answers are necessary in order to come to the conclusion that will be most helpful to the person who asked the question. It's just one example, and in this case there was no pissing match about the differing opinions, but still... I hope the point I'm trying to make is coming across properly. Because yeah, I've also seen people asking for immigration advice and support about problems in their relationship, and thread evolved into an angry discussion riddled with insults about whether or not Obama is a good President... or something like that. Not helpful.

I think some people need to make better use of the "Ignore" feature. It's awesome. If someone is constantly pissing you off, it's a great tool. Nobody here pisses me off on a personal level, because well... I don't know anyone here. But I use "ignore" anyway. If I notice that I find a particular person's posts to be consistently irritating or useless, and I have to restrain myself from saying "you know what? You're a jackass!", I'll put them on ignore, just because me telling them that they're a jackass won't help anyone at all, so the best thing I can do is set their profile to "ignore". Then, while I'll see that they have posted something, I don't have to read the jackassery if I don't want to.

I especially think the "ignore" feature should be used by some of the people here who are really knowledgeable and helpful, but can't seem to get along with each other for whatever reason. I'd hate to see someone really useful either get suspended, or get so fed up with someone else that they don't want to visit this site anymore. And as I've read in this thread, things like that have already happened, and I think it's a real shame. I'm one of the scared new people here, and personally, I need your advice and knowledge. You all continually answer questions I have (although I haven't personally posted them, I'm still reading when other people ask), and your advice and experience are invaluable to me, and I really appreciate it. So please don't let personality conflicts get in the way.

[Captain Ewok 1,900]

I'm glad that all of these issues are being addressed openly here. I spend a whole lot of time reading and not very much time posting (because I rarely have anything constructive to add), and I've noticed the trend of personality conflicts and bickering getting in the way of advice, and it has been bothering me. Sometimes I see constructive bickering, other times it's just a useless pissing match between people who probably don't know each other in real life, but have decided that they hate each other on the internet. As far as I'm concerned, that's completely ridiculous, and it's a big waste of time.

I see no reason why people can't disagree with each other in a RESPECTFUL manner. We're all adults here, right? To say something like "I disagree. Here's my reason why..." or to say "You're wrong. Here's the right answer..." will both get the same point across, but one is a productive way to answer, and one isn't. There are a lot of issues related to the immigration process that aren't clear cut. Two people with exactly the same circumstances can easily have two very different experiences, right? So the differing opinions are helpful to the person asking the question, because then they know the possibilities of what to expect. For example... Somebody asked about what would happen if they have assumed their husband's last name, but not made the change on their passport, and wanted to know what name would appear on their green card. Some people answered that the name used on the petition and other paperwork would be the name used on the green card. Other people answered that the name on the passport appears on the green card. Both sides were speaking of their own experiences, so neither answer is wrong, but instead a third answer is most helpful: In some cases they use the name from the petition and other paperwork, in others they use the name on the passport. If you want to be sure to have your married name on your green card, the best thing to do is change the passport. No need for bickering, right? In this case, the two opposite answers are necessary in order to come to the conclusion that will be most helpful to the person who asked the question. It's just one example, and in this case there was no pissing match about the differing opinions, but still... I hope the point I'm trying to make is coming across properly. Because yeah, I've also seen people asking for immigration advice and support about problems in their relationship, and thread evolved into an angry discussion riddled with insults about whether or not Obama is a good President... or something like that. Not helpful.

I think some people need to make better use of the "Ignore" feature. It's awesome. If someone is constantly pissing you off, it's a great tool. Nobody here pisses me off on a personal level, because well... I don't know anyone here. But I use "ignore" anyway. If I notice that I find a particular person's posts to be consistently irritating or useless, and I have to restrain myself from saying "you know what? You're a jackass!", I'll put them on ignore, just because me telling them that they're a jackass won't help anyone at all, so the best thing I can do is set their profile to "ignore". Then, while I'll see that they have posted something, I don't have to read the jackassery if I don't want to.

I especially think the "ignore" feature should be used by some of the people here who are really knowledgeable and helpful, but can't seem to get along with each other for whatever reason. I'd hate to see someone really useful either get suspended, or get so fed up with someone else that they don't want to visit this site anymore. And as I've read in this thread, things like that have already happened, and I think it's a real shame. I'm one of the scared new people here, and personally, I need your advice and knowledge. You all continually answer questions I have (although I haven't personally posted them, I'm still reading when other people ask), and your advice and experience are invaluable to me, and I really appreciate it. So please don't let personality conflicts get in the way.

I think your point about the ignore feature is terrific. In some cases it can be an excellent way to screen out people you prefer not to interact with.

[NatPatBen 3]

A very quick thing I just did to address this (in some part) is that the hearts now all hyperlink to:

http://www.visajourney.com/wiki/index.php/...ey_Member_Ranks

I get the Q on what they mean sometimes... now people will simply need to click on them to get the list.

Great idea to add the link. I asked this question before, and I'm sure others have & will, so I'm sure some current & future VJers will appreciate this.

[Kez/JWolf 6]

The idea about taking things to PM is a good thing, I know it has worked for me on many occasions. The only problem is when one of the two people has the other blocked for PM.

If I come across a thread where incorrect info has been given, I normally just post the correct info and the quote and link to the source and leave it up to the readers to decided what information is correct and useful.

I do not see any point in the back and forth arguments it just causes stress for the people concerned, and fills up the thread with ####### that people dont need or want to have to trawl through to get at the information that we all come here for.

I find the fact that I constantly have to go and find the information and links to back up my answer is a good thing as when doing this I have found out about changes and new up-dates, so hopefully keeping my info fresh and up to date. For us senior members many years can pass from the time we did our journey and as we all know immigration and its laws are always changing, so it would be easy to be giving outdated info without knowing.

Its nice to see the explanation of the Hears and boxes, I know many people mistake them for sign of seniority and think that someone with lots of BIG hearts must be very knowledgeable about immigration when in reality they gained all their hearts from OT posting. I do think that the loss of the Boxes and hearts would be a good idea, I have been on other information forums where there is no rank system and it works well. Having a rank system means you will always get people who want another box or heart so the post a one word answer like "congrats" in every thread they see that has an approval or answers every poll back to god knows when to increase their post count. If we are going to keep the rank system them maybe excluding OT posts would be good.

Sadly there will always be personality mismatches on any public forum. Something as sensitive as immigration can cause a lot of frustration and stress. We have a vast array of people from all corners of the earth and some people are very good at the written word and can make their posts look and sound very professional and have added weight. while other may know the correct information and have the links to go along with it but they are not as good with words or English is not their first language. I find it strangely funny when the bickering happens between some people that the language used gets more and more Legal/Professional as things get worse and worse, it is almost like watching two junior lawyers trying to score points by using the most complicated and obscure language that the know, LOL

Additional MODS will help as there is often times when I find something that needs attention but all I can do is send a PM to the MODS advising them of a issue, but as we all have a real life it does mean that sometimes a few hours have passed before the issues can be dealt with.

Anyway there you have it, my very early Sunday morning musing on a difficult subject.

Jon

[missmissy 38]

The arguing on the forums "despite who is right or wrong" scares new members looking for help. They did not ask for their threads to turn into a battleground for senoir members but I see it happening which is a shame.

w.r.t. to the arguing between the two members central to this tangent... it is possible that both are wrong and both are right. At the most basic level they may simply not like each other... which is just part of life: not everyone likes each other. That said this is not a reason to leave ones civility behind at the expense of keeping the community a helpful and welcoming place for all members.

That is precisely why many people, old and new members alike, have stopped or never even begin posting on VJ. Some of this petty bickering is seemingly for 'argument's sake' or to score personal points in what is obviously a very personal disagreement. It is obvious to me there are sides, since the same 'sides' keep throwing pies at one another.

Frankly, it has become tiresome trawling through the threads for relevant information and I very rarely come back here for information. I am glad that my K1 visajourney experience on these boards, at least, was in some way positive as many of those filing with me were extremely supportive and shared some genuinely useful information. The site and some member's commitment to the quality of the site have definitely degenerated in the past year.

That is great feedback. Thank you. Do you think it would be helpful for more to stop in from time to time throughout the forums. While I am not a source of any immigration information I would not mind suggesting areas of the site for people to read (replying to the topic). I would also like to welcome new members and "Set the welcoming tone" that VJ should really be all about. Maybe this will help to encourage that atmosphere to be more prevalent if it is at all lacking.

Thoughts?

I think that is a marvelous idea! We are about ready to send our k1 in and I have to say - I have been on this site for 6 months now, reading, posting and trying to cope with the waiting and the stress of being apart. It would be fantastic to have someone answer a question with a link to that iformation in previous posts. This is a great community, I have passed many a lonely night and weekend here, reading, participating in goofy discussions and just passing the time sometimes. I respect both parties being discussed in this thread and hate that this has happened. It has diminished my respect for both of them and I am sure it has had the same effect on others.

[diadromous mermaid 36]

Maybe the solution, for the time being, is that rather than a mod getting involved and asking for people to "stop bickering or the thread will be closed" they should simply pop on and say something along the lines of "opposing opinions, parties please cite your sources".

1. If one does and the other doesn't, then the object of the thread has been accomplished. The question has been answered and some veracity to one party's "opinion" has been provided.
2. If both do, then the debate was useful and necessary to weed through and demonstrate that there is conflicting information "out there".
3. If neither does, both will know that they are simply conjecturing, (or as Pushbrk refers, offering anecdotal knowledge, that can hardly be regarded as fact, but just an observation), and the OP will know that neither has enough factual background on the matter to be taken as expert.

I am not advocating sources or citations for each and every post on this forum. Rather for when it is clear that an opposing opinion has developed and a discourse between two or more has ensued. Those that should then go back to an arsenal of knowledge or links to reputable sources know "instantly" when that becomes necessary. The mod directing the parties to do so, is only a warning that the discussion, so far, has been insufficiently "backed up" with factual sources.

The problem as I see it is related to the fact that individuals that are prolific posters (and that post count can be acquired in "rah, rah" threads opf no consequence) acquire stats under their member name that suggest longevity and that quite possibly could also falsely indicate to new members that they "just might know a little more than others". That is not always the case. I say that in order to keep the site a place for "INFORMation" when a discussion quite clearly involves a differing of opinion, then quality citations should be posted to demonstrate that the opinion being offered is substantiated. If one can't post a citation, then they should be told to ####### off and stop spewing #######. Shutting down the thread only serves one purpose.....the answer is never known, and the OP does not get the service s/he deserves.

I absolutely agree with you on all counts. As long as the thread stays open those unable to substantiate their opinion will become obvious.