Since when

[Captain Ewok 1,891]

The arguing on the forums "despite who is right or wrong" scares new members looking for help. They did not ask for their threads to turn into a battleground for senoir members but I see it happening which is a shame.

w.r.t. to the arguing between the two members central to this tangent... it is possible that both are wrong and both are right. At the most basic level they may simply not like each other... which is just part of life: not everyone likes each other. That said this is not a reason to leave ones civility behind at the expense of keeping the community a helpful and welcoming place for all members.

That is precisely why many people, old and new members alike, have stopped or never even begin posting on VJ. Some of this petty bickering is seemingly for 'argument's sake' or to score personal points in what is obviously a very personal disagreement. It is obvious to me there are sides, since the same 'sides' keep throwing pies at one another.

Frankly, it has become tiresome trawling through the threads for relevant information and I very rarely come back here for information. I am glad that my K1 visajourney experience on these boards, at least, was in some way positive as many of those filing with me were extremely supportive and shared some genuinely useful information. The site and some member's commitment to the quality of the site have definitely degenerated in the past year.

That is great feedback. Thank you. Do you think it would be helpful for more to stop in from time to time throughout the forums. While I am not a source of any immigration information I would not mind suggesting areas of the site for people to read (replying to the topic). I would also like to welcome new members and "Set the welcoming tone" that VJ should really be all about. Maybe this will help to encourage that atmosphere to be more prevalent if it is at all lacking.

Thoughts?

[diadromous mermaid 36]

All that "welcome" VJ could offer to its members will be for naught, if by pushing out the "welcome mat" the members step into a place where "mis-information" is not addressed, quickly and precisely.

A lot of people do drift away. Some move on with their lives after passing a stage in their journey. Others move away because there's so much information on here that is not factual, that it becomes hard to read and know which way to turn to clean it all up. It seems, of late, one out of 10 threads, nowadays, is useful. 9 are simply timeline checks and OT.

But consider this thought for a moment. If virtually 10% of your VJ inventory addresses the very protocol, procedure, and regulations related to immigration and of that a large percentage of it is false, misleading, or conjectural....just what have you got? What value does this forum provide? Consider that, for a moment, and perhaps the attrition might make a little more sense. I don't think the bickering is the issue. It is that the bickering occurs in the pith of the project. Why? Because some people don't check their facts before posting.

The arguing on the forums "despite who is right or wrong" scares new members looking for help. They did not ask for their threads to turn into a battleground for senoir members but I see it happening which is a shame.

w.r.t. to the arguing between the two members central to this tangent... it is possible that both are wrong and both are right. At the most basic level they may simply not like each other... which is just part of life: not everyone likes each other. That said this is not a reason to leave ones civility behind at the expense of keeping the community a helpful and welcoming place for all members.

That is precisely why many people, old and new members alike, have stopped or never even begin posting on VJ. Some of this petty bickering is seemingly for 'argument's sake' or to score personal points in what is obviously a very personal disagreement. It is obvious to me there are sides, since the same 'sides' keep throwing pies at one another.

Frankly, it has become tiresome trawling through the threads for relevant information and I very rarely come back here for information. I am glad that my K1 visajourney experience on these boards, at least, was in some way positive as many of those filing with me were extremely supportive and shared some genuinely useful information. The site and some member's commitment to the quality of the site have definitely degenerated in the past year.

That is great feedback. Thank you. Do you think it would be helpful for more to stop in from time to time throughout the forums. While I am not a source of any immigration information I would not mind suggesting areas of the site for people to read (replying to the topic). I would also like to welcome new members and "Set the welcoming tone" that VJ should really be all about. Maybe this will help to encourage that atmosphere to be more prevalent if it is at all lacking.

Thoughts?

Edited March 22, 2009 by diadromous mermaid

[Captain Ewok 1,891]

To me (and correct me if I am wrong) the best way to approach things is to promote a sense of community where people can comment and post without feeling like someone will personally attack them on jump on their back. This allows people to post things, correct each other, and generally express ideas in a constructive manner. If someone corrects you then you can learn from that and not take it as an insult. etc.

[Captain Ewok 1,891]

Aside from basic immigration issues, VJ offers a community of people that are "in your shoes". I can not stress how important I think it is that we maintain an open arms and non-judgmental environment. So many people face that already simply by their peers or people just not aware of the immigration mess. There are so many stereotypes out there and VJ is hopefully the one place where you can talk even about issues relating to this (and the wait) where you will not feel judged and in fact have people that understand your pain.

[MonkeyJuice 3]

Personally I think this site provides the best visa information. I have researched as much as I can & learned so much with the help of VJ members. It also provided support in the long wait for our NA02 (especially in the 6 month+ plus thread).

But also VJ has also helped take my mind off this long, stressful process by being able to discuss "off topic" matters with people going through the same process. However, these sometimes get argumentative but most of the time are entertaining.

I personally think that RJ has a point. She only answered the original OP's question from an immigration point of view & then the bickering started. Nothing on the thread offended anyone but the people involved, so who cares?

No one actually has to read a whole thread if they can see that arguing is involved. A forum is meant to be a place where personal views can be aired.

I've seen a lot more "taboo" subjects discussed in other threads & nothing has been mentioned.

[mox 298]

The fact is that unless VJ becomes moderated and only immigration experts (for whatever value of "expert" that means) are allowed to post, disinformation is just something that is going to happen. Disinformation is certainly a problem, but how we deal with it is an even bigger problem. A healthy back-and-forth debate is...er...healthy. But there comes a point where, even when there is a clear right answer and a clear wrong answer, the position-holders just need to let it go and let the OP and readers decide. I believe that in most cases the correct answer is going to be clear anyway, because the people with the right answers tend to be those who can provide real sources and have a track record of good advice, while those who post bogus information are often nebulous and incomplete in their details, and have a track history of getting it wrong. There's a sort of Darwinian nature to the process that makes disinformation a smaller worry than it otherwise might be.

Perhaps something that could help advice-seekers would be post-rating system. I'm really hesitant to suggest this idea though, because one of the other problems that I see daily on VJ are "factions," and I worry that posts could be artificially inflated or deflated by these little sub-communities. But who knows, maybe it wouldn't be a problem.

[Captain Ewok 1,891]

I worry about the "mod" voting too which is why the "praise/report member" voting results are simply used as a moderation tool and not a public mark of "fame/scorn".

[Y's_habibitk 2]

Aside from basic immigration issues, VJ offers a community of people that are "in your shoes". I can not stress how important I think it is that we maintain an open arms and non-judgmental environment. So many people face that already simply by their peers or people just not aware of the immigration mess. There are so many stereotypes out there and VJ is hopefully the one place where you can talk even about issues relating to this (and the wait) where you will not feel judged and in fact have people that understand your pain.

This is 80% of the reason I love VJ. Members can gain knowledge from postings and of course the guides are great. But it's that fact that people can identify with one another, is what I believe to be most beneficial.

I also agree with others, that the constant bickering,needling and numerous fueds that anyone can see going around, are def. offputting to new and old members alike.

Edited March 22, 2009 by Y's_habibitk

[bakofoil 27]

All that "welcome" VJ could offer to its members will be for naught, if by pushing out the "welcome mat" the members step into a place where "mis-information" is not addressed, quickly and precisely.

A lot of people do drift away. Some move on with their lives after passing a stage in their journey. Others move away because there's so much information on here that is not factual, that it becomes hard to read and know which way to turn to clean it all up. It seems, of late, one out of 10 threads, nowadays, is useful. 9 are simply timeline checks and OT.

But consider this thought for a moment. If virtually 10% of your VJ inventory addresses the very protocol, procedure, and regulations related to immigration and of that a large percentage of it is false, misleading, or conjectural....just what have you got? What value does this forum provide? Consider that, for a moment, and perhaps the attrition might make a little more sense. I don't think the bickering is the issue. It is that the bickering occurs in the pith of the project. Why? Because some people don't check their facts before posting.

This is a public message board where people will try and help others and unwittingly steer them adrift, or just not word good advice as well as some others might. There is nothing wrong with misinformation being addressed quickly and precisely. Nor is there anything wrong with accepting you have been wrong. That was always a part of the positive experience I had as a member here.

People do drift away but others are also driven away. I know of a good few "star experts" being driven away from the site in my early experience of VJ as a result of personal differences with someone or other (fellow posters, mods, probably even ewok) so I would not discount the bickering as being a part of the issue here. And, in fact, it seems that a large part of the problem here is that people are unprepared to accept being wrong, or at least, walk away from the argument once they have stated their point. If a thread gets shut down as a result of two people not being able to have a fair and open discussion over setting one another straight with respect to the topic being posted and allowing the discussion to degenerate into obviously personal attacks then what is the point in anyone posting a legitimate question? How does that behaviour welcome a new member who is confused about the process?

It is a shame that those who know a fair bit about the process and perhaps most importantly, those who know nothing about the process and want to learn, are having to witness the historic differences between two people whose individual advice, in the past, many people have benefited from.

[DARUMA07 25]

I would like to say that even though some of these fueds among members can be juvenile at times, this site as far as immigration goes is the best thing since apple pie. I for one, appreciate the noobs as well as the old timers here on this site. We are here to help make each others journeys as painless as possible. There is a great source of info here!!!! Thank You VJ and Captain Ewok for making all this possible..... I can honestly say, I couldn't have gotten this far in our journey if it wasn't for Visa Journey.

[bakofoil 27]

Personally I think this site provides the best visa information. I have researched as much as I can & learned so much with the help of VJ members. It also provided support in the long wait for our NA02 (especially in the 6 month+ plus thread).

But also VJ has also helped take my mind off this long, stressful process by being able to discuss "off topic" matters with people going through the same process. However, these sometimes get argumentative but most of the time are entertaining.

I personally think that RJ has a point. She only answered the original OP's question from an immigration point of view & then the bickering started. Nothing on the thread offended anyone but the people involved, so who cares?

No one actually has to read a whole thread if they can see that arguing is involved. A forum is meant to be a place where personal views can be aired.

I've seen a lot more "taboo" subjects discussed in other threads & nothing has been mentioned.

The problem is that the thread was shut down, which doesn't help the OP or anyone else in the OP's "shoes".

plus I'm not sure where "personal views" have a place when guiding member's about the process.

Edited March 22, 2009 by bakofoil

[MonkeyJuice 3]

All that "welcome" VJ could offer to its members will be for naught, if by pushing out the "welcome mat" the members step into a place where "mis-information" is not addressed, quickly and precisely.

A lot of people do drift away. Some move on with their lives after passing a stage in their journey. Others move away because there's so much information on here that is not factual, that it becomes hard to read and know which way to turn to clean it all up. It seems, of late, one out of 10 threads, nowadays, is useful. 9 are simply timeline checks and OT.

But consider this thought for a moment. If virtually 10% of your VJ inventory addresses the very protocol, procedure, and regulations related to immigration and of that a large percentage of it is false, misleading, or conjectural....just what have you got? What value does this forum provide? Consider that, for a moment, and perhaps the attrition might make a little more sense. I don't think the bickering is the issue. It is that the bickering occurs in the pith of the project. Why? Because some people don't check their facts before posting.

This is a public message board where people will try and help others and unwittingly steer them adrift, or just not word good advice as well as some others might. There is nothing wrong with misinformation being addressed quickly and precisely. Nor is there anything wrong with accepting you have been wrong. That was always a part of the positive experience I had as a member here.

People do drift away but others are also driven away. I know of a good few "star experts" being driven away from the site in my early experience of VJ as a result of personal differences with someone or other (fellow posters, mods, probably even ewok) so I would not discount the bickering as being a part of the issue here. And, in fact, it seems that a large part of the problem here is that people are unprepared to accept being wrong, or at least, walk away from the argument once they have stated their point. If a thread gets shut down as a result of two people not being able to have a fair and open discussion over setting one another straight with respect to the topic being posted and allowing the discussion to degenerate into obviously personal attacks then what is the point in anyone posting a legitimate question? How does that behaviour welcome a new member who is confused about the process?

It is a shame that those who know a fair bit about the process and perhaps most importantly, those who know nothing about the process and want to learn, are having to witness the historic differences between two people whose individual advice, in the past, many people have benefited from.

here here

[Captain Ewok 1,891]

I think one certain fact that has come out of this is the need for a moderator or two increase. We are stretched too thin, I agree. We already had a list of names made up in advance and I am going to run it by the group (hopefully get some new help in the next few days). I think two to three new moderators should really make things easier for us and allow each mod to more fully dig into issues and promote the "VJ Values".

[diadromous mermaid 36]

The problem as I see it is related to the fact that individuals that are prolific posters (and that post count can be acquired in "rah, rah" threads opf no consequence) acquire stats under their member name that suggest longevity and that quite possibly could also falsely indicate to new members that they "just might know a little more than others". That is not always the case. I say that in order to keep the site a place for "INFORMation" when a discussion quite clearly involves a differing of opinion, then quality citations should be posted to demonstrate that the opinion being offered is substantiated. If one can't post a citation, then they should be told to ####### off and stop spewing #######. Shutting down the thread only serves one purpose.....the answer is never known, and the OP does not get the service s/he deserves.

All that "welcome" VJ could offer to its members will be for naught, if by pushing out the "welcome mat" the members step into a place where "mis-information" is not addressed, quickly and precisely.

A lot of people do drift away. Some move on with their lives after passing a stage in their journey. Others move away because there's so much information on here that is not factual, that it becomes hard to read and know which way to turn to clean it all up. It seems, of late, one out of 10 threads, nowadays, is useful. 9 are simply timeline checks and OT.

But consider this thought for a moment. If virtually 10% of your VJ inventory addresses the very protocol, procedure, and regulations related to immigration and of that a large percentage of it is false, misleading, or conjectural....just what have you got? What value does this forum provide? Consider that, for a moment, and perhaps the attrition might make a little more sense. I don't think the bickering is the issue. It is that the bickering occurs in the pith of the project. Why? Because some people don't check their facts before posting.

This is a public message board where people will try and help others and unwittingly steer them adrift, or just not word good advice as well as some others might. There is nothing wrong with misinformation being addressed quickly and precisely. Nor is there anything wrong with accepting you have been wrong. That was always a part of the positive experience I had as a member here.

People do drift away but others are also driven away. I know of a good few "star experts" being driven away from the site in my early experience of VJ as a result of personal differences with someone or other (fellow posters, mods, probably even ewok) so I would not discount the bickering as being a part of the issue here. And, in fact, it seems that a large part of the problem here is that people are unprepared to accept being wrong, or at least, walk away from the argument once they have stated their point. If a thread gets shut down as a result of two people not being able to have a fair and open discussion over setting one another straight with respect to the topic being posted and allowing the discussion to degenerate into obviously personal attacks then what is the point in anyone posting a legitimate question? How does that behaviour welcome a new member who is confused about the process?

It is a shame that those who know a fair bit about the process and perhaps most importantly, those who know nothing about the process and want to learn, are having to witness the historic differences between two people whose individual advice, in the past, many people have benefited from.

[mox 298]

The problem as I see it is related to the fact that individuals that are prolific posters (and that post count can be acquired in "rah, rah" threads opf no consequence) acquire stats under their member name that suggest longevity and that quite possibly could also falsely indicate to new members that they "just might know a little more than others".

The "heart" system needs to go. It just does.