221(g) "not clearly eligible"

[Sailor Moon 2]

Does anyone have any experience with having their K-1 returned by the embassy to DHS/USCIS for vague reasons like "not clearly eligible" under 221(g)? We showed up for what were told would be an interview with the consul (following our interview last month, after which we were told 'administrative processing' was required), but instead of an interview, we were given a piece of paper saying our case was being sent back under 221(g). They do NOT want any documents; I think they just want to deny our application. (During the interview last month, the vice consul remarked "I've seen lots of older men with younger women but I've never seen an older woman with a younger man". I am three years and 1 month older than my fiance. Also she refused to literally accept our evidence of ongoing relationship; we had photos from multiple visits, letters, emails, chat transcripts, phone bills.) If I understand correctly, our application could die a slow death waiting to be processed, in which case we'll never have a chance to present evidence to a rational human. I tried emailing the consul to ask her to take a look at our file before the diplomatic pouch is picked up but she only responds that I should contact DHS/USCIS. Some friends say I need a lawyer to fight this, others say a lawyer can't help, all we can do is wait. For possibly 2 years. Please, if you have any experience with this, please give an idea of what I should be doing.

if u or ur fiancee mentioned that u were interduced by some freinds or any one else then ur case definetly get denyed,,there is another memeber in this form has the same case ,check with her and see what she has done this is her nick:ariesgirl

[KimandRuss 0]

It's important to understand that even though they are under the thumb of the US and certain standards are suppose to apply .... we know that not every Embassy/Country is created equally. When a visa is denied at the Embassy it's most important to do everything you can to keep the case in that Country and deal with it that way. Otherwise, it seems you are stuck in an endless pit of red tape.

If the case was already sent back to the USCIS and you have no 'clear' reason or request for further info, there is likely nothing you can do at this point. The suggestion early in this thread to marry and file cr-1 is probably your best option. However, if you do find there was a real reason for the denial, this will need to be addressed before another visa is applied for.

good luck!

[NatashaW 0]

It's important to understand that even though they are under the thumb of the US and certain standards are suppose to apply .... we know that not every Embassy/Country is created equally. When a visa is denied at the Embassy it's most important to do everything you can to keep the case in that Country and deal with it that way. Otherwise, it seems you are stuck in an endless pit of red tape.

If the case was already sent back to the USCIS and you have no 'clear' reason or request for further info, there is likely nothing you can do at this point. The suggestion early in this thread to marry and file cr-1 is probably your best option. However, if you do find there was a real reason for the denial, this will need to be addressed before another visa is applied for.

good luck!

Thank you for your good wishes!

[Gary and Alla 3,694]

It is a good lesson for all of us. What was done here is possibly wrong but now the petitioner and beneficiary have to deal with it. See, if YOU make a mistake, it is YOUR problem...if THEY make a mistake, it is YOUR problem. Your fault, their fault, ANYONE's fault, and it is YOUR problem. That is why it is best to go to the interview with evidence that makes you "clearly eligilble" It is why I also believe the USC should attend the interview unless the consulate does not allow it, the USC should complete all forms and only ONE person should be in charge of the whole process.

[NatashaW 0]

It is a good lesson for all of us. What was done here is possibly wrong but now the petitioner and beneficiary have to deal with it. See, if YOU make a mistake, it is YOUR problem...if THEY make a mistake, it is YOUR problem. Your fault, their fault, ANYONE's fault, and it is YOUR problem. That is why it is best to go to the interview with evidence that makes you "clearly eligilble" It is why I also believe the USC should attend the interview unless the consulate does not allow it, the USC should complete all forms and only ONE person should be in charge of the whole process.

I agree completely. In our case, however, it WAS the USC who prepared all the docs, and I WAS there for the interview, and I DID bring TONS of evidence with us-- the vice consul just didn't accept it. Literally. Would not take possession of any of our letters, chat transcripts, phone bills, photos, etc.

By the way, according to the embassy website, USCs are not allowed to be present for interviews. I gave my fiance my passport and waited outside the building. When the receptionist heard that I was outside, she told my fiance to get me and called the guards to let me in. (Unfortunately, it didn't help.) Anyway, my advice is for the USC to be there for the interview and if they don't let you in, give your fiance your passport so s/he can show that you care enough about this to be there anyway.

[Gary and Alla 3,694]

So there were no specific documents requested? You inserted "...." in your response when talking about the blue slip. Nothing else was requested. Just the paragraph addressing "Administrative Processing?" Typically the blue slip asks the petitioner and/or the applicant to submit additional info (in our case it was 2 items: more correspondence and info about my ex-wife) for review.

What Homeland Security issues could there be with you or your fiance? Clearly this has nothing to do with age so don't dwell on that issue. Something set off a red flag.

I ask again, what are the "weak spots" in your love story that would bring questions to the mind of an experienced Consular Officer? He told you at the 1st interview that he didn't "feel right." What could he doubt in the bona fides of your relationship? That is where you ought to focus your attention when attempting to turn this situation around.

No documents were requested. We offered, but they didn't take our evidence of continuing relationship or the local Department of Justice's certificate about my fiance's address history, although it is specifically asked for in the instructions the embassy gave us beforehand.

USCIS is a "child agency" of DHS. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Citizenship_and_Immigration_Services) The embassy says its forwarding to DHS; I think they mean USCIS (of DHS). Neither of us has any security issues, other than a speeding ticket I got 11 years ago.

I too believe that age is not THE issue/cause but I'm guessing the Vice Consul is adding it to her report as another factor as a reason to deny, since she thinks our relationship is fake (I'm guessing).

Other than the vice consul refusing to accept our evidence and making a wacko comment about our three-year age difference, the only other possible weak spot is that she didn't allow us to explain her perceived discrepancy in our answers to one question ( I said we were introduced by Americans, my fiance said we were introduced to each other by a Georgian. In fact, the Georgian and the Americans got together to play matchmaker for us and encourage us to at least meet each other. The vice consul claimed she didn't understand our answer but then moved on to the next question without a follow-up question.)

Having said that, I'm not sure how to fight things at this point. Other than wait for a letter from DHS/USCIS/ NVC, and respond immediately with whatever info they ask for, if our application doesn't expire in the meantime.

Do not underestimate the implications of this age difference in some parts of the world. In the FSU (and more so as you go farther into central asia) the concept of the wife being older is very suspicious. In Ukraine it is mildly scandalous and makes tongues wag and calls into question the mental capability of the woman and the, well, "manhood" capability of the man. Though I cannot imagine the Kiev consulate finding another reason to reject the visa for "reverse" age differences, they would only talk about you at lunch. In Georgia, it may raise enough suspicions for them to want to look for other reasons to reject this application. At any rate, whether they are right or wrong, you are stuck with the problem. They just threw a stick in your spokes and now what will you do? If you sort it out, then maybe they will believe you were sincere and grant the visa.

And no, the same things will not be implied with Canadian/American situations, our cultures do not care about this, but it is bid time bad medicine in many countries, and if I am not mistaken the woman in this case is the USC, correct? So you have an older American woman, wanting to marry a younger Georgian man? Very strange. Beleive em, I am not commenting on your situation for which I have no concerns (Hey, marry who you want, I am very libertarian about that) but to THEM it is very strange. Very strange indeed.

So, in short, you were not denied because of the age difference, you were denied because in this part of the world such an age difference creates such strong suspicions you simply were not able to overwhelm the suspicions and therefore "not clearly eligible"

[NatashaW 0]

So there were no specific documents requested? You inserted "...." in your response when talking about the blue slip. Nothing else was requested. Just the paragraph addressing "Administrative Processing?" Typically the blue slip asks the petitioner and/or the applicant to submit additional info (in our case it was 2 items: more correspondence and info about my ex-wife) for review.

What Homeland Security issues could there be with you or your fiance? Clearly this has nothing to do with age so don't dwell on that issue. Something set off a red flag.

I ask again, what are the "weak spots" in your love story that would bring questions to the mind of an experienced Consular Officer? He told you at the 1st interview that he didn't "feel right." What could he doubt in the bona fides of your relationship? That is where you ought to focus your attention when attempting to turn this situation around.

No documents were requested. We offered, but they didn't take our evidence of continuing relationship or the local Department of Justice's certificate about my fiance's address history, although it is specifically asked for in the instructions the embassy gave us beforehand.

USCIS is a "child agency" of DHS. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Citizenship_and_Immigration_Services) The embassy says its forwarding to DHS; I think they mean USCIS (of DHS). Neither of us has any security issues, other than a speeding ticket I got 11 years ago.

I too believe that age is not THE issue/cause but I'm guessing the Vice Consul is adding it to her report as another factor as a reason to deny, since she thinks our relationship is fake (I'm guessing).

Other than the vice consul refusing to accept our evidence and making a wacko comment about our three-year age difference, the only other possible weak spot is that she didn't allow us to explain her perceived discrepancy in our answers to one question ( I said we were introduced by Americans, my fiance said we were introduced to each other by a Georgian. In fact, the Georgian and the Americans got together to play matchmaker for us and encourage us to at least meet each other. The vice consul claimed she didn't understand our answer but then moved on to the next question without a follow-up question.)

Having said that, I'm not sure how to fight things at this point. Other than wait for a letter from DHS/USCIS/ NVC, and respond immediately with whatever info they ask for, if our application doesn't expire in the meantime.

Do not underestimate the implications of this age difference in some parts of the world. In the FSU (and more so as you go farther into central asia) the concept of the wife being older is very suspicious. In Ukraine it is mildly scandalous and makes tongues wag and calls into question the mental capability of the woman and the, well, "manhood" capability of the man. Though I cannot imagine the Kiev consulate finding another reason to reject the visa for "reverse" age differences, they would only talk about you at lunch. In Georgia, it may raise enough suspicions for them to want to look for other reasons to reject this application. At any rate, whether they are right or wrong, you are stuck with the problem. They just threw a stick in your spokes and now what will you do? If you sort it out, then maybe they will believe you were sincere and grant the visa.

And no, the same things will not be implied with Canadian/American situations, our cultures do not care about this, but it is bid time bad medicine in many countries, and if I am not mistaken the woman in this case is the USC, correct? So you have an older American woman, wanting to marry a younger Georgian man? Very strange. Beleive em, I am not commenting on your situation for which I have no concerns (Hey, marry who you want, I am very libertarian about that) but to THEM it is very strange. Very strange indeed.

So, in short, you were not denied because of the age difference, you were denied because in this part of the world such an age difference creates such strong suspicions you simply were not able to overwhelm the suspicions and therefore "not clearly eligible"

I agree with your comments in general. Just to be clear, I, the USC, am 39 and my fiance is 36. (This is NOT a big difference.) I think the Vice Consul doesn't know anything about local culture. It is she herself who thinks our age difference is strange. In Georgia, we have met more than a few happy Georgian couples who have even greater age differences, wife being older.

Please, to other "older" women reading this, do NOT freak out; I think the Vice Consul just didn't want to give us a visa and was looking for ANY tiny little hook to hang her suspicions on. YOU ("older" woman) will most likely get a much more reasonable interviewer, so just stay calm and make sure your have your papers in order and that you follow all the tips on websites like this one. You'll most likely be fine.

[Anh map 2,098]

It does seem that a few small things combined with the regional norms gave the CO reason to doubt the validity. The small things being: 1-differing answers on how you met. 2-age difference. 3-shorter (7 month) courtship.

Don't give up. If need be, go get married and do the IR/CR 1 route.

[Gary and Alla 3,694]

So there were no specific documents requested? You inserted "...." in your response when talking about the blue slip. Nothing else was requested. Just the paragraph addressing "Administrative Processing?" Typically the blue slip asks the petitioner and/or the applicant to submit additional info (in our case it was 2 items: more correspondence and info about my ex-wife) for review.

What Homeland Security issues could there be with you or your fiance? Clearly this has nothing to do with age so don't dwell on that issue. Something set off a red flag.

I ask again, what are the "weak spots" in your love story that would bring questions to the mind of an experienced Consular Officer? He told you at the 1st interview that he didn't "feel right." What could he doubt in the bona fides of your relationship? That is where you ought to focus your attention when attempting to turn this situation around.

No documents were requested. We offered, but they didn't take our evidence of continuing relationship or the local Department of Justice's certificate about my fiance's address history, although it is specifically asked for in the instructions the embassy gave us beforehand.

USCIS is a "child agency" of DHS. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Citizenship_and_Immigration_Services) The embassy says its forwarding to DHS; I think they mean USCIS (of DHS). Neither of us has any security issues, other than a speeding ticket I got 11 years ago.

I too believe that age is not THE issue/cause but I'm guessing the Vice Consul is adding it to her report as another factor as a reason to deny, since she thinks our relationship is fake (I'm guessing).

Other than the vice consul refusing to accept our evidence and making a wacko comment about our three-year age difference, the only other possible weak spot is that she didn't allow us to explain her perceived discrepancy in our answers to one question ( I said we were introduced by Americans, my fiance said we were introduced to each other by a Georgian. In fact, the Georgian and the Americans got together to play matchmaker for us and encourage us to at least meet each other. The vice consul claimed she didn't understand our answer but then moved on to the next question without a follow-up question.)

Having said that, I'm not sure how to fight things at this point. Other than wait for a letter from DHS/USCIS/ NVC, and respond immediately with whatever info they ask for, if our application doesn't expire in the meantime.

Do not underestimate the implications of this age difference in some parts of the world. In the FSU (and more so as you go farther into central asia) the concept of the wife being older is very suspicious. In Ukraine it is mildly scandalous and makes tongues wag and calls into question the mental capability of the woman and the, well, "manhood" capability of the man. Though I cannot imagine the Kiev consulate finding another reason to reject the visa for "reverse" age differences, they would only talk about you at lunch. In Georgia, it may raise enough suspicions for them to want to look for other reasons to reject this application. At any rate, whether they are right or wrong, you are stuck with the problem. They just threw a stick in your spokes and now what will you do? If you sort it out, then maybe they will believe you were sincere and grant the visa.

And no, the same things will not be implied with Canadian/American situations, our cultures do not care about this, but it is bid time bad medicine in many countries, and if I am not mistaken the woman in this case is the USC, correct? So you have an older American woman, wanting to marry a younger Georgian man? Very strange. Beleive em, I am not commenting on your situation for which I have no concerns (Hey, marry who you want, I am very libertarian about that) but to THEM it is very strange. Very strange indeed.

So, in short, you were not denied because of the age difference, you were denied because in this part of the world such an age difference creates such strong suspicions you simply were not able to overwhelm the suspicions and therefore "not clearly eligible"

I agree with your comments in general. Just to be clear, I, the USC, am 39 and my fiance is 36. (This is NOT a big difference.) I think the Vice Consul doesn't know anything about local culture. It is she herself who thinks our age difference is strange. In Georgia, we have met more than a few happy Georgian couples who have even greater age differences, wife being older.

Please, to other "older" women reading this, do NOT freak out; I think the Vice Consul just didn't want to give us a visa and was looking for ANY tiny little hook to hang her suspicions on. YOU ("older" woman) will most likely get a much more reasonable interviewer, so just stay calm and make sure your have your papers in order and that you follow all the tips on websites like this one. You'll most likely be fine.

Well, I am glad you were there. Many consulates allow the USC in the interview, Kiev did. I know some do not, but good to send in the passport, of course. I sometimes hopw they can keep you out of a building that is, leagally, part of the USA, the interview yes, but outside? Oh well, we can't fight that battle here.

So you are a USC woman marrying a younger Georgian man? I make no judgements, I really don't care, and wish you luck for a happy life. I lived in Ukraine, I am aware of the customs, so are the US citizens working at the consulate in Georgia. (it takes about 30 minutes in Ukraine to figure it out, IF you are slow on the uptake) I can only say your fiance turned in his documents and evidence to a "pre-screener" or "clerk" or whatever you want to call the job. That person gives it to an officer you may or may not ever see. HE(or she) makes the judgement before he even speaks to your fiance, I promise you. So what does he/she see? American woman petitioning a Georgian man. Wierd, very strange. Woman older than the Georgian man...freaky wierd! Red flags are flying everywhere, because NO Georgian man, not a REAL Georgian man, would marry a woman older than he is! 39 yr. old American women do not come to the FSU to marry men 36 years old. 39 year old American MEN come to the FSU to marry 22 year old women. In Georgia it is common for 36 year old men to seek women 18-24 for wives, 25 and unmarried is "over the hill". Not even interesting! (though personally I disagree) That's the name of that tune! The pitch count is 0-2 before they even look at your evidence. So the appeal process becomes the evidence. If you appeal you must be serious. You say "3 years is not much". It is a LOT in a culture where women think that a husband 10 years older is "ideal", and 15-20 years older is commonplace and perfectly acceptable. You are 10-15 years "too old" for their way of thinking, not 3 years. Mind you, it was NOT the age difference, it was the strangeness in this case that makes them suspect possible visa fraud. So they look for something, some reason to deny, the more vague the better. It is one of the flaws in the system, I think, that so much is left to the disgression of an individual. I do not know the solution. Specific guides would be too easy to defeat by frauds. I suppose there needs to be some disgression. I am sorry this happened to you and wish you luck.

[YuAndDan 153]

Moving to "Waivers (I-601 and I-212) and Administrative Processes (221g)" forum.

[NatashaW 0]

UPDATE: I just got off the phone with the latest attorney I've contacted. He recommended that we don't hire an attorney right now. Instead, he said to have my congressman contact DHS/USCIS (to ask for them to pay attention to it, so it doesn't die a natural death; it seems if a congressman inquires about a case, they have to respond with at least a status report within 48 hours AND that requesting a status report will shorten the typically 6-month wait). He also recommended that I contact the Vermont office in St. Albans, let them know that our application is on its way back to them from the Tbilisi embassy; it seems there's a special department that deals with rejects (and rejects are lowest on the totem pole for processing, because the office doesn't get credit for re-processing them). The attorney said to contact him after trying through my congressman.

Personally, I like this advice best so far. I am convinced that no matter who calls them or emails them, the Consul/Vice Consul is NOT going to review or re-interview anyone they don't have to, nor are they going to even give us a hint as to the basis for their denial. I think we'll have better luck getting folks in the US to pay attention and act professionally, actually look at our supporting evidence of a continuing relationship, reaffirm our application, and send it back to the Tbilisi embassy with attitude.

Edited March 25, 2009 by NatashaW

[Minya's wife 25]

UPDATE: I just got off the phone with the latest attorney I've contacted. He recommended that we don't hire an attorney right now. Instead, he said to have my congressman contact DHS/USCIS (to ask for them to pay attention to it, so it doesn't die a natural death; it seems if a congressman inquires about a case, they have to respond with at least a status report within 48 hours AND that requesting a status report will shorten the typically 6-month wait). He also recommended that I contact the Vermont office in St. Albans, let them know that our application is on its way back to them from the Tbilisi embassy; it seems there's a special department that deals with rejects (and rejects are lowest on the totem pole for processing, because the office doesn't get credit for re-processing them). The attorney said to contact him after trying through my congressman.

Personally, I like this advice best so far. I am convinced that no matter who calls them or emails them, the Consul/Vice Consul is NOT going to review or re-interview anyone they don't have to, nor are they going to even give us a hint as to the basis for their denial. I think we'll have better luck getting folks in the US to pay attention and act professionally, actually look at our supporting evidence of a continuing relationship, reaffirm our application, and send it back to the Tbilisi embassy with attitude.

Good advice from the lawyer. I would just comment on your bolded statement that your 'problem' was never folks here....USCIS approved your initial petition. It is the US consulate officials in Tbilisi that are not believing the the bona-fides of your relationship....and that is a hurdle you're still going to have to overcome even on the second time around. Have you contacted your representavies?

good luck,

-P

[Minya's wife 25]

UPDATE: I just got off the phone with the latest attorney I've contacted. He recommended that we don't hire an attorney right now. Instead, he said to have my congressman contact DHS/USCIS (to ask for them to pay attention to it, so it doesn't die a natural death; it seems if a congressman inquires about a case, they have to respond with at least a status report within 48 hours AND that requesting a status report will shorten the typically 6-month wait). He also recommended that I contact the Vermont office in St. Albans, let them know that our application is on its way back to them from the Tbilisi embassy; it seems there's a special department that deals with rejects (and rejects are lowest on the totem pole for processing, because the office doesn't get credit for re-processing them). The attorney said to contact him after trying through my congressman.

Personally, I like this advice best so far. I am convinced that no matter who calls them or emails them, the Consul/Vice Consul is NOT going to review or re-interview anyone they don't have to, nor are they going to even give us a hint as to the basis for their denial. I think we'll have better luck getting folks in the US to pay attention and act professionally, actually look at our supporting evidence of a continuing relationship, reaffirm our application, and send it back to the Tbilisi embassy with attitude.

'puter glitch...double post.

Edited March 25, 2009 by Minya's wife

[Ann 26 1]

Does anyone have any experience with having their K-1 returned by the embassy to DHS/USCIS for vague reasons like "not clearly eligible" under 221(g)? We showed up for what were told would be an interview with the consul (following our interview last month, after which we were told 'administrative processing' was required), but instead of an interview, we were given a piece of paper saying our case was being sent back under 221(g). They do NOT want any documents; I think they just want to deny our application. (During the interview last month, the vice consul remarked "I've seen lots of older men with younger women but I've never seen an older woman with a younger man". I am three years and 1 month older than my fiance. Also she refused to literally accept our evidence of ongoing relationship; we had photos from multiple visits, letters, emails, chat transcripts, phone bills.) If I understand correctly, our application could die a slow death waiting to be processed, in which case we'll never have a chance to present evidence to a rational human. I tried emailing the consul to ask her to take a look at our file before the diplomatic pouch is picked up but she only responds that I should contact DHS/USCIS. Some friends say I need a lawyer to fight this, others say a lawyer can't help, all we can do is wait. For possibly 2 years. Please, if you have any experience with this, please give an idea of what I should be doing.

I had "great experiece " with that.....If you applied in Georgian Embassy in Tbilisi, that's the same location where I applied before. We were depressed and very sad as the consul(probably the same one you are talking about) denied my case with NO REASON at all,she just told me that she was reutrning the case back....My now husband is much older than I am ,but we got problems still...so I think she doesn't like Fiance Visa Petitions at all. Anyway,if it is sent back, I doubt there is any chance to reaffirm the petition any time soon,but there are some important things your fiance should do for the future reference.After I was turned down, I got married and we reapplied and now I am with my husband in the states. I wish you to get sucessful as soon as possible.

And remember that honest people will always get approved !

[NatashaW 0]

UPDATE 2: We just spoke to an immigration attorney experienced with K-1 denials/revocations. After hearing our story, he thought that one possible red flag to the CO was that my fiance applied, in the year before meeting me, for tourist visas twice to the US and was denied (this is not unusual for youngish unmarrieds in his country). The attorney suggested we get married and then I submit an I-130. He was careful to warn us to be sure to still respond to all inquiries based on our original K-1. In fact, he suggested that, once my congressman confirms with Vermont that they've received our application (bounced back by the CO based on 221g), I should submit a package of materials to Vermont with our version of events at the CO interview plus tons of our supporting evidence (photos of us, alone and together with friends; chats transcripts (1 for each week), postcards, cards, letters, phone bills, etc.). He also explained that we could let the K-1 process continue without marrying, but that it would take significantly longer. Either way, he was optimistic that we'd be successful.

I thank all for their suggestions and words of support.

NatashaW