REASON FOR IMBRA ???

[milestogo 0]

By the way, the link you supplied from loveme.com - Oksana is a cutie! Still, it disturbes me greatly she should be displayed and sold as if she were the latest HDTV or something.

[one...two...tree 2,762]

Now I see. So this isn't just IMBRA ...

You resent the fact that now in addition to pre-IMBRA, where the I-129F form required you to disclose how you met your fiancee, you are now also required to state whether you used a marriage broker or not, yes? How is the second question any more discriminatory than the first? Stating 'yes' to using a marriage broker doesn't preclude you being denied anything.

[milestogo 0]

I think the same background information should be asked of men marrying woman from Alabama or who earn less than 20K/year and don't have access to resources. I thought about adding friendless woman or those with small families that don't have access to social etworks but it gets too complicated. it's a small burden and if we save just one life this way...

Also, what do you think about joining up with IMBRA2005 in shutting downthese outrageous sights like loveme.com which deplorably sell women like so much ecommerce goods? This will require additional legislation and we'll need to band together to get things rolling with the politicians. I hear Maria Cantwell might be sympathetic to our cause.

Edited June 20, 2006 by milestogo

[iceyspots 0]

[noBS 0]

Now I see. So this isn't just IMBRA (which I now support) but the fact that woman are being placed on sites as if they were so much goods. This is deplorable. IMBRA clearly won't solve this since it is not designed to shut down services like loveme.com. We need to work together to shut down international dating services. This will require additional legislation. If you support me on IMBRA for Alabama and Imbra for woman making less than $20K/year, I will help support new legislation shutting down dating services with poor ecommerce asthetics. Should we leave dating sites that use politically correct methods of introducing men or just shut down the whole lot of them. I'm with you either way. Let's go!

I see more people recognize the game being played here: Once the going gets tough, the example of bad marketing get trotted out to provoke sympathy and revulsion.

But where are the statistics that marriages originating from these sites ended in spousal abuse? That is the problem there are no studies to prove they do. We have all these assumed and tenous associations being tossed around as truths, and there is no evidence! Show me? Prove to me? The visa process has been put into reverse, this is no matter of an extra day or two, we are talking 4-5 months! So you damn well better prove to me the law was written properly.

Opinion and anecdotal comments are not proof.

What we do have is people upset at morons marketing that appeals to neanderthals. BUT that is not illegal!

IMBRA has already set us upon a very slippery slope of legislating bad marketing. Bad marketing is not illegal.

But let's take it a step further... prove to me the IMBRA proponents did not plant these websites as part of their campaign to pass their legislation? This is not tinfoil hat stuff, this kind of public manipulation goes on 24/7. You might want to consider your government for example (Karl Rove)

Furthermore, IMBRA2005 has been asked on many occaisions to identify themselves so that we might more fairly judge their words. But the silence is deafening, and it is prudent to consider them the fox in the henhouse. I too have to presume that IMBRA2005 is a paid public relations representative, a hired gun, who's job it is to mold public perception, and indeed in this case- exercise damage control.

StevenJinky: I agree the marketing is abhorrent in many cases, and I have personally put myself in harms way many times to protect womens rights. But attempting to use an already broken mechanism, the visa process, to achieve the goals of protecting women (or men) was a terrible mistake. If you truly want results, this instrument simply will not work. USCIS was simply not designed to do what you want them to. They can't even find thier azz in a dark room using both hands!

[*Robert* 2]

[milestogo 0]

Furthermore, IMBRA2005 has been asked on many occaisions to identify themselves so that we might more fairly judge their words. But the silence is deafening, and it is prudent to consider them the fox in the henhouse. I too have to presume that IMBRA2005 is a paid public relations representative, a hired gun, who's job it is to mold public perception, and indeed in this case- exercise damage control.

If this is true they are paying too much for her (or him, or they).

[*Robert* 2]

Serenity Prayer

Lord grant me the ability to change the things I can, accept the things I can’t change, and to understand the difference.

[jamesfreddyc 0]

Is there even such a thing as "mail order bride"????

The language implies that a "client" pages through a book of personal ads, makes a selection, then places a request for that person to be shipped to them.

...Does this describe something real? or is this just a term/label from many years ago, before the Internet medium came along to be used as a REAL communication tool?

j

Here's a few examples from the Tahirih Justice Center:

Women “sold” like items in a shopping cart (e.g., “Add Marina (68849) to my order”) or implied as goods: http://www.datingdepot.com/women/russia/russia-women.htm

http://www.loveme.com/women/moscow-women/moscow-women.htm

http://www.goodwife.com (“The Mail Order Bride Warehouse”)

http://www.abc.net.au/ra/asiapac/programs/s1074951.htm (re: listing of Vietnamese women on E-bay by marriage broker).

http://www.anastasiaweb.com/top1000.htm

I only looked at one, but from what I saw: Client will basically purchase contact info or subscribe to the site wich has personal listings of people.

....So what happens after a client recieves/accesses contact information?

I still see the need to actually COMMUNICATE with someone. I am unaware of instances where a client sends a "will you marry me?" initial e-mail/communique. The point being, it has nothing to do with placing a "mail order" for anything -- other than the purchase of contact information. The relationship part is still built in time, regardless of how the initial meeting took place.

The language associated with IMBRA assumes that IMB's do NOT facilitate communication between couples, rather they simply provide a platform which to pick a wife. Totally NOT true! Use of an IMB to obtain INITIAL information about the characteristics, personal apperance, and many other attributes of women does NOT implicate it's clients as "shoppers". Rather the IMB is a viable tool for initiating communication between people --- regardless of where one might live on the planet.

j

[Imbra2005 0]

Now I see. So this isn't just IMBRA (which I now support) but the fact that woman are being placed on sites as if they were so much goods. This is deplorable. IMBRA clearly won't solve this since it is not designed to shut down services like loveme.com. We need to work together to shut down international dating services. This will require additional legislation. If you support me on IMBRA for Alabama and Imbra for woman making less than $20K/year, I will help support new legislation shutting down dating services with poor ecommerce asthetics. Should we leave dating sites that use politically correct methods of introducing men or just shut down the whole lot of them. I'm with you either way. Let's go!

I see more people recognize the game being played here: Once the going gets tough, the example of bad marketing get trotted out to provoke sympathy and revulsion.

But where are the statistics that marriages originating from these sites ended in spousal abuse? That is the problem there are no studies to prove they do. We have all these assumed and tenous associations being tossed around as truths, and there is no evidence! Show me? Prove to me? The visa process has been put into reverse, this is no matter of an extra day or two, we are talking 4-5 months! So you damn well better prove to me the law was written properly.

Opinion and anecdotal comments are not proof.

What we do have is people upset at morons marketing that appeals to neanderthals. BUT that is not illegal!

IMBRA has already set us upon a very slippery slope of legislating bad marketing. Bad marketing is not illegal.

But let's take it a step further... prove to me the IMBRA proponents did not plant these websites as part of their campaign to pass their legislation? This is not tinfoil hat stuff, this kind of public manipulation goes on 24/7. You might want to consider your government for example (Karl Rove)

Furthermore, IMBRA2005 has been asked on many occaisions to identify themselves so that we might more fairly judge their words. But the silence is deafening, and it is prudent to consider them the fox in the henhouse. I too have to presume that IMBRA2005 is a paid public relations representative, a hired gun, who's job it is to mold public perception, and indeed in this case- exercise damage control.

StevenJinky: I agree the marketing is abhorrent in many cases, and I have personally put myself in harms way many times to protect womens rights. But attempting to use an already broken mechanism, the visa process, to achieve the goals of protecting women (or men) was a terrible mistake. If you truly want results, this instrument simply will not work. USCIS was simply not designed to do what you want them to. They can't even find thier azz in a dark room using both hands!

Oh my! Now the conspiracy doesn't just extend to me, but the people who hired me to post on this forum must have actually created fictitious mail order bride websites just to get the legistlation passed. I suppose they also slashed Alla Barney's throat just so they could have a poster child for their cause, right? Are you sure you're not wearing a tin foil hat?

I can assure you that I am no "paid public relations representative" "exercising damage control." What damage is there to control? IMBRA passed with only 3 dissenting votes in Congress. The President of the United States signed it. It is, as they say, the law of the land. There is no damage to control. All I'm doing is giving my personal views here, armed with the facts which I have presented for public consumption. The members of this board can decide for themselves as to whether the information I posted is credible. My personal details are utterly irrelevant to that determination.

[milestogo 0]

I hope nobody took offense to my postings as I was just being sarcastic to point out the absurdity of this all. I respect dissenting opinions and know that those posting here mean well. With one exception that is - Imbra2005. Tell us who you are and why you are here. Be truthful. Clearly you aren't looking to process a visa and have an alternative agenda. In terms of full disclosure, here's who I am.

Like I stated previously, I am a lifelong democrat and egalitarian. I am also a man who is in love to a wonderful woman I met while vacationing in Russia. Although I did not meet my fiance through an agency I would be just as happy and proud of her if I had. She is my soulmate, my poet, my protector, my angel, and the love of my life. Her interview was scheduled for the 29th of June which would mean we would be days away from starting our new joyful life together. 30 days ago I recieved a call from the Moscow Embassy that the interview had been cancelled and our petition returned due to IMBRA. We cancelled wedding plans, airline tickets, and dreams of being together. Now neither the NVC, USCIS, or Moscow Consulate can even find our petition much less tell us what to do or give us any information. Our nervousness and sadness increase daily. At best we are 3 months away at worse the delay seems endless.

Oh, and in the words of Richard Nixon, "I am not a criminal". Although in his case he actually was

[one...two...tree 2,762]

I hope nobody took offense to my postings as I was just being sarcastic to point out the absurdity of this all. I respect dissenting opinions and know that those posting here mean well. With one exception that is - Imbra2005. Tell us who you are and why you are here. Be truthful. Clearly you aren't looking to process a visa and have an alternative agenda. In terms of full disclosure, here's who I am.

Like I stated previously, I am a lifelong democrat and egalitarian. I am also a man who is in love to a wonderful woman I met while vacationing in Russia. Although I did not meet my fiance through an agency I would be just as happy and proud of her if I had. She is my soulmate, my poet, my protector, my angel, and the love of my life. Her interview was scheduled for the 29th of June which would mean we would be days away from starting our new joyful life together. 30 days ago I recieved a call from the Moscow Embassy that the interview had been cancelled and our petition returned due to IMBRA. We cancelled wedding plans, airline tickets, and dreams of being together. Now neither the NVC, USCIS, or Moscow Consulate can even find our petition much less tell us what to do or give us any information. Our nervousness and sadness increase daily. At best we are 3 months away at worse the delay seems endless.

Oh, and in the words of Richard Nixon, "I am not a criminal". Although in his case he actually was

Call me an optimist but I believe that an argument can stand on it's own merits, separate from who is making a point. No offense, but when it comes to exposing oneself here, you're not in a position to call out IMBRA2005. Your information is as about as limited as theirs. But that's really not relevant to the argument.

Congratulations on your soulmate! That is all that matters. If you had met her through a marriage broker, I'd say the same. There should be no shame in using an international dating service provided your motives are sincere. I hope you will come to realize the merits of what IMBRA aims to do. No one is advocating we legislate away all of our social ills. But if society can benefit from a law such as IMBRA without it violating one's Constitutional Rights, then why get into a lather over it?

[almaty 19]

Serenity Prayer

Lord grant me the ability to change the things I can, accept the things I can’t change, and to understand the difference.

good saying

[*Robert* 2]

good saying

Actually, I messed it up, coz I was in a hurry... here is the correct version!

God grant me the serenity

to accept the things I cannot change;

courage to change the things I can;

and wisdom to know the difference.

Sounds much better than how I first wrote it!

Anyway, people need to accept the things they cannot, and will not change!

[PsychoKat 0]

What about American brides? There is no such law for americans marrying americans. What if married my ex boyfriend from college and he ended up murdering me because I broke up with him? I also would have never known he had a criminal record. You can't exactly do a google search on someone's background.

Maybe they should create this law for EVERYONE.

I don't think this is about protecting foreigners at all. This is just another way to make it even harder for people to come to the US.

you can't compare it that way. if you're also a USC and living in the US, same as your spouse to be...then the opportunities available to you are a bit different than a foreign spouse. for one, you can actually have a network of people to go to if you need help. you probably have the means to support yourself too if you do find out about your spouse's criminal or abusive past if you would want to leave. mostly, you WILL probably know your spouse-to-be a lot more since you're living in the US rather than someone in another country who only knew their spouse-to-be first person basis and only got to spend a few days or weeks with him/her.

i know this law sucks but it can actually benefit some people...maybe a lot more in the future. maybe when they finally fine tune the law and paperworks...it will be easier to filter out those couples where IMBRA does not apply.

Your argument is entirely valid either. Although those resources might be avaliable to a USC on paper, the fact is many victims of abuse are also isolated from any support network by their abuser. They live in fear of retribution to themselves or their loved ones if they attempt escape. Many come to believe they are at fault for the abuse they are subjected to, forced into submission by their abuser out of fear and accused of inciting that abuse by having flawed personalities. Many victims of abuse remain in abusive relationships because they fear they won't be able to survive financially on their own and will end up in worse condition out on the streets.

IMBRA hands the foreign fiance or spouse these records, no one hands a USC those records, they have to work to get them, and might not even know how to go about doing so. IMBRA grants the foreign spouse the relative safety of knowing if they choose to end the relationship based on this knowledge, the chances that the USC petitioner would go through the difficulties involved in traveling to a foreign country to harm them would be small. On the other hand a USC, in the same situation would not have that element of comfort or safety as it is relatively easy for someone to track you down within the same country, and an order of protection can be pretty worthless when it comes to those situations.

I myself was an abused spouse in my first marriage, I am speaking from experience in some of this. My comment about the order of protection and ease of being tracked down come from another experience. One of my co-workers was dealing with the same issues as I was at the same time, she had an order of protection against her estranged spouse. After work one night, she and her children went to church for ash wednesday services and he shot her, murdered her as she came out of the church right there in front of their children, took one of them as hostage and ran.

IMBRA actually offers foreign spouses/fiances better and more protection than USC's have.