Debate heats up: Capitalism vs. Socialism

[_Simpson_ 250]

For all those confused about the government controlling aspects of our lives under an economical system of politics needs to look back at the classical definitions of capitalistic and socialist theory. They in fact should be looking at political ideology, not economics.

They go hand in hand, consider them both.

Of course they do. Both idiots and smart people can be good socialists or capitalists. Homicidal maniacs or well-intended fellows the same.

Problems arise when we ascribe tenets of one political system to characteristics of an economical ideology that is flat out incorrect. Selective knowledge of history sadly clouds many folks' ability to rationalize one thing for what it is.

This contradicts what you were saying before,

They in fact should be looking at political ideology, not economics.

Im was saying consider both.

[I AM NOT THAT GUY 5,715]

Is there anyone here for Socialism?

I am if I can get lots of free stuff for doing nothing. But we already have socialism, paying for kids I never had the fun of making, extra money in my electric and gas bill for people that cannot afford it. Extra money for health insurance for those that don't pay, extra taxes for WICK, extra taxes for that idiot building inspector, extra taxes for police that run around and ticket everyone, and the list goes on and on. Never got a dime from the government, not even my VA benefits due to some phony fire. If I have to work my a$$ off so can everyone else.

Exactly what is socialism? And why is it considered new?

A collective ownership for the most part, or as some say the stepping stone to communism. Its a idea that through collective ownership(such as housing) no one will go with out. It may sound good but its not very realistic. Keep in mind too that there is different levels of socialism.

Collective ownership would be communism, by definition. Europe works a little different historically, for the most part, than the US does. Socialism is not that far from the way Europe has been historically governed. You can still practice Socialism, and let the market set prices. Many countries in the rest of the world, have command economies, without being Socialist, where prices are set by a central authority, and not by the market. There is a huge mix of possibilities out there.

Socialism and communism are ideological doctrines that have many similarities as well as many differences. It is difficult to discern the true differences between socialism and communism, as various societies have tried different types of both systems

One difference between socialism and communism is that socialism is mainly an economic system, while communism is both an economic and a political system. As an economic system, socialism seeks to manage the economy through deliberate and collective social control.

I intentionally spelled communism with a little "c" for a reason, refering to collectivism. Marxism-Leninism, or Communism, is a form of Command, or State Socialism.

[one...two...tree 2,762]

Is there anyone here for Socialism?

sigh...Are you for real? Shelby, what do you define Socialism to mean? USSR? Western Europe? To some Right Wing Nuts, they pretend the two are the same.

Edited March 7, 2009 by Mister Fancypants

[Ban Hammer 13,641]

Is there anyone here for Socialism?

the gray wolves were, until they started getting shot at!

[S and S 12]

Is there anyone here for Socialism?

the gray wolves were, until they started getting shot at!

lol, they were taking up too much room and not sharing!

[I AM NOT THAT GUY 5,715]

Textbook definitions:

capitalism An economic system that advocates private ownership, competition, profit, and a market economy.

communism (Marxist) A classless society where private ownership of productive forces has ended, the state has withered away, and human alienation has ended.

democratic socialism A movement striving to attain the goals of socialism within the context of representative constitutional government.

Leninism A Marxist worldview that argues the primacy of politics and the Communist party as the ultimate source of power. Party discipline and centralism are central to Leninism.

socialism An ideology that advocates collective ownership of productive forces along with cooperation, a planned economy, and production for the general welfare rather than individual profit.

Edited March 8, 2009 by Mister_Bill

[one...two...tree 2,762]

Thanks for the textbook definition, Bill. Now I'd like to know what Shelby thinks - whether Americans want a USSR style socialism, or the Western European socialism that exists today? If a majority of Americans are in favor of national health care, for example, does that make Americans, socialists?

The private health insurance industry we have today in this country has failed us. It is bloated, expensive, exclusive, and bureaucratic, which makes any reference to government run health insurance as undoubtedly having those qualities humorous. Private health insurance has had it's chance to prove itself...now it's time to different something different...a change is needed.

[_Simpson_ 250]

Is there anyone here for Socialism?

sigh...Are you for real? Shelby, what do you define Socialism to mean? USSR? Western Europe? To some Right Wing Nuts, they pretend the two are the same.

.Are you for real?

You know that was uncalled for, rude and also its a good way to put someone on the defense and as a result it takes away from the quality of the debate.

FP we have had some debates in the past and I think we can assume Im not a right wing wacko. Im all about finding that happy medium and not being so open minded that my brain falls out.

I take the textbook approach to socialism.

[_Simpson_ 250]

Thanks for the textbook definition, Bill. Now I'd like to know what Shelby thinks - whether Americans want a USSR style socialism, or the Western European socialism that exists today? If a majority of Americans are in favor of national health care, for example, does that make Americans, socialists?

The private health insurance industry we have today in this country has failed us. It is bloated, expensive, exclusive, and bureaucratic, which makes any reference to government run health insurance as undoubtedly having those qualities humorous. Private health insurance has had it's chance to prove itself...now it's time to different something different...a change is needed.

I am not for a government run health care system. Private health sucks I agree, we need to fix this but I do not think the government is cable of that or do I believe them to be the answer.

I believe the Americans your are referring to want a European system, which I would characterize as a capitalistic society with overwhelming socialistic characteristics. Government health care can be a easy sell if your not aware of all the pitfalls, many that support this I believe are not aware of the pitfalls.

[_Simpson_ 250]

FP, what are your thoughts on the issues you brought up?

[eros_EX_Plumber 0]

We need to go back to WILD WILD WEST cowboy markets.....

Where some idiot lazy FAT a$$ is playing with someone else retirement money......with no rules and regulations

Where other make BILLIONS by creating sophisticated PONZI schemes......

Let go back to that....why don't we....go back to the snake oil salesmans too while we are it !!!!!!

[one...two...tree 2,762]

Is there anyone here for Socialism?

sigh...Are you for real? Shelby, what do you define Socialism to mean? USSR? Western Europe? To some Right Wing Nuts, they pretend the two are the same.

.Are you for real?

You know that was uncalled for, rude and also its a good way to put someone on the defense and as a result it takes away from the quality of the debate.

FP we have had some debates in the past and I think we can assume Im not a right wing wacko. Im all about finding that happy medium and not being so open minded that my brain falls out.

I take the textbook approach to socialism.

Sorry, Shelby. It's just that I find the whole implication that those on the Left want to turn this country into the next USSR insulting...and it gets implied over and over with the Right Wing blogosphere and then parroted here.

What I'd like to see is more honest discussions over whether we need national health care or some other idea because this country gets so divided when people get into ideological debates vs. whether an idea can stand on it's own merits. IMO, the GOP is pushing itself ever more toward irrelevance by continually dismissing the policies and ideas of the Democrats for ideological reasons rather than coming up with a better idea. America needs ideas right now....this isn't the time to be getting into an ideological war as this thread suggests.

[_Simpson_ 250]

Sorry, Shelby. It's just that I find the whole implication that those on the Left want to turn this country into the next USSR insulting...and it gets implied over and over with the Right Wing blogosphere and then parroted here.

No propblems, hell Ill probably will forget by tomorrow anyways . I can understand how you would find it insulting I have heard some talk show pundits make those claims and I think there really hurting the perception of conservative philosophy.

What I'd like to see is more honest discussions over whether we need national health care or some other idea because this country gets so divided when people get into ideological debates vs. whether an idea can stand on it's own merits. IMO, the GOP is pushing itself ever more toward irrelevance by continually dismissing the policies and ideas of the Democrats for ideological reasons rather than coming up with a better idea. America needs ideas right now....this isn't the time to be getting into an ideological war as this thread suggests.

I also would like see a good discussion on national health care. I think it is important that GOP stick to there guns about it not becoming a government program, I think there is strong feelings and good reasons to why the GOP believes the program will fail, and also I believe that there is better options. I would like to see the two sides explore those options.

Edited March 8, 2009 by looking_up

[_Simpson_ 250]

I intentionally spelled communism with a little "c" for a reason, refering to collectivism. Marxism-Leninism, or Communism, is a form of Command, or State Socialism.

Oh ok I see.

[S and S 12]

I brought up my own idea on health care on page one of this thread, but no one responded to it. I would be curious to see what people think, though I'm certainly no expert on health care, it is just a possible idea.