what did you know about your SO's culture before marriage/arrival

[taj'samericanwife 0]

my husband is muslim and i was raised roman catholic. very different but i have always loved him for who he is. we started out as boyfriend and girlfriend and it bothered him very much because in islam there is no such thing as boyfriend and girlfriend. but i explained to him if we really want to know each other we have to do this. we have been together for 5 years now and married for 2 years...all i can say is i love him and i am willing to do everything for him and my son to be with me here in america...

im just worried that in his interview it will come up that he is muslim and i am not...

[ya falaha! 0]

I was previously married to a MENA man for 10 yrs prior to my current husband so I knew quite a bit including rearing half Arab/Muslim children. However, I'm still learning new things esp. since both husbands are from very different countries/societies. I don't think, as an American, you ever get fully accustomed to or integrated in MENA culture/traditions...no matter how long you're married, where you live or which religious views you subscribe to.

[caybee 21]

I was previously married to a MENA man for 10 yrs prior to my current husband so I knew quite a bit including rearing half Arab/Muslim children. However, I'm still learning new things esp. since both husbands are from very different countries/societies. I don't think, as an American, you ever get fully accustomed to or integrated in MENA culture/traditions...no matter how long you're married, where you live or which religious views you subscribe to.

I think you're right about that. Yesterday, my husband told me that I am a Moroccan woman now. It was a very sweet thing to say, but I know that will never be the case. I'm more aware of my own identity now than ever before. Part of my job is to respect and support his identity, which means learning as much as I can, but I'll never really see through his eyes, as much as I would love to.

Edited March 2, 2009 by caybee

[UmmSqueakster 54]

We certainly had conversations on what to expect. We didn't meet until 2 years after we met, so for 2 years all we had was talk, plus the 2 years after that before he got the visa. You bet we talked about it a lot

But, even with all that talk, living together brings up things you didn't anticipate, and even the best laid plans can get waysided. We've been together in the US going on 3 and a half years now, and there are still things that need hashing out.

I think what has worked for us, we agreed early on that he isn't an american, so I shouldn't expect an american husband, and I'm not an egyptian, so he shouldn't expect an egyptian wife. Instead of being ruled by either american or egyptian culture, we agreed to find the middle ground in islam. We're still working on creating that happy middle ground, especially since we've realized that our views of what the religion requires don't always mesh. Ah well.

[ya falaha! 0]

Caybee...I've been told the same "You're Egyptian now, etc". While that's very sweet I know it's not supposed to be taken literally. I'll never be Egyptian and quite honestly, I don't want to be. I like me. I don't understand why some ppl try to lose their identities when they marry someone from a different culture. Mutual "adapting" to each others' likes, dislikes, etc. is one thing but totally trying to transform into someone you are not is silly IMO.

Personally, I find MENA culture and traditions fascinating. Their food is delicious. Their language is beautiful. Etc. But I am not Arab and never will be and that's the way I like it.

[Sandrila 1]

When meeting my husband I was already very seasoned with relationships, had been married for 10 years, with 3 children.

I had no idea about his culture or religions, other than the negatives I heard after 911.

We talked about, what it seemed to be, everything and anything before marriage and after, up and until he arrived here.

I had never discussed such issues with my first husband...child rearing, limitations, religion, expectations, etc...just went with the flow and that did bring problems down the line because there was no base, no real sense of what the other wanted or how we would be choosing to live our life and how we would control business in within our family.

Living a cyber relationship or just going to visit a few times during your wait for the visa does not prepare one for real life with your spouse.

I didnt realize it when I was pining for him and eager to become one with him. We could "get to know" each other but not really know each other until we lived together. I have been married 2 years and I am newly wed, as if there was no time for courtship or engagement, just thrown right into marriage. There was nothing or no one I wanted more than to have him here with me.

Once I became serious about him, I delved into his culture and religion but it took a lot of time for me to network with other women, who were involved with similiar men, to understand some characteristics of MENA men. It took me time to really see who this man is and what he is about.

Believe me it is quite different than any other relationship I have had before. Somethings I so adore about him and other things drive me mad. It has been hard to mesh our 2 ways of life and expectations. I just find it has been an adjustment for both of us. I feel bad because I find myself losing my patience completely because my husband is someone who is unyielding most of the time. We are working on that. I am also so independent and outgoing. I am a good wife, but I cant be dictated to or isolated. I believe so much of give and take, and 50/50 but I dont know if it will possible with my husband. I believe that his "ways" and expectations stem from where he is from and how is was raised.

I understand about him assuming the role as MAN in my life and wanting to be in control but it is hard for a woman to religuish control completely after living alone and accomplishing so muc,h from nothing, on her own.

I admire all of you for your candid posts. Thanks for sharing. I never thought that I would need to be advised on issues in my marriage.

I thought we would just be married and we would just be happy just for him being here with me. Totally not true. It takes alot of hard work.

It takes both of us working together to have both our needs met and establish the kind of relationship and happy home we want and that we need to succeed.

Edited March 2, 2009 by sandrila

[MrsAmera 41]

Most of what I knew was from the books, although I was very open minded and a world traveler before I knew him. I had dated another ME guy for a short time, and he was the exact opposite of my husband. He was much more conservative and while we had a good time, the deal breaker was my 6 month old son - his family would never accept and in the end he wanted to marry a girl from home. I was glad that he was honest with me about this. (He did live in the US). When I met my husband it was pure random chance on vacation and I never thought 5 years down the road we would have the life we do today! It seems like yesterday! The hardest thing to overcome was having to "take care" of him. I was always independent and having a very young child I thought bam he would come and I would have someone that knew how to take care of everything!

As for culture. I visited a lot. Lived there for almost 2 months with him, and spent close to another 3 months total visiting at different times. So really we were only apart for 7 months total. I really felt and do feel a very good grasp on his culture. I spent a lot of time talking to other women (both American and Moroccan) - two of my best friends are Moroccan women and that really helps me figure out lots of stuff. I don't have many American friends where we live now so I'm pretty immersed! My husband is more on the liberal end of the spectrum however with time and maturity I see him getting more conservative. I think culture only goes so far - some traits are just him being a man, and his lack of world experience.

My husband also insists I'm Moroccan now, (shoot my best Moroccan friend says I cook Moroccan food better than her!) but like others have said, I'm very aware of my identity more now. I'm sure when we move back to Morocco someday I will definetely realize this even more and will begin to understand nuances of their culture that I don't see here.

[kitteh 1]

I think one of the most valuable lessons I have learned (and am still improving) is how to argue. He gets very heated and emotional, and when I quickly jump to argue back it always ends with both of us upset and angry. However, I learned that if I can manage to just hold my tounge and listen to him (no matter how crazy it is sounding in the heat of the moment) then he really calms down quickly. Then later, when we are totally off topic, and things are relaxed, I can revisit that same topic, and sweetly tell him my point of view. At that point he's totally willing to listen and discuss and we are able to resolve the issue.

This is such great advice for anyone in a relationship. My Gustavo isn't MENA but I do think there are a lot of surface similarities between most MENA men and a lot of South American men. But even for people in relationships with someone who is neither from the middle east or the southern hemisphere, I think this advice resonates.

It seems to be the natural reaction to jump to the defensive when you feel "attacked," but I have really noticed that what you say here about diffusing the situation is true. Gustavo and I are both really stubborn so if I jump into the role of being defensive we can stay in that mode for a half a day or more--both of us being short and cold with one another. But if I bite my tongue at first and just let him get out what he wants to say and then acknowledge his feelings--with or without accepting the blame, I've found that's not as important as acknowledging what he is feeling--then we can get to the kiss-and-make-up part sooner. Also it does give me a chance to air my side of the story more easily because once his point of view has been acknowledged he calms down a lot and doesn't feel the need to defend his stance against my objections.

Of course, this is still a work-in-progress and has been put on the back burner now that we are apart. But it's so worth all of the effort that I have to expend in order to bite my tongue at first.

Edited March 2, 2009 by kitteh

[Y's_habibitk 2]

When meeting my husband I was already very seasoned with relationships, had been married for 10 years, with 3 children.

I had no idea about his culture or religions, other than the negatives I heard after 911.

We talked about, what it seemed to be, everything and anything before marriage and after, up and until he arrived here.

I had never discussed such issues with my first husband...child rearing, limitations, religion, expectations, etc...just went with the flow and that did bring problems down the line because there was no base, no real sense of what the other wanted or how we would be choosing to live our life and how we would control business in within our family.

Living a cyber relationship or just going to visit a few times during your wait for the visa does not prepare one for real life with your spouse.

I didnt realize it when I was pining for him and eager to become one with him. We could "get to know" each other but not really know each other until we lived together. I have been married 2 years and I am newly wed, as if there was no time for courtship or engagement, just thrown right into marriage. There was nothing or no one I wanted more than to have him here with me.

Once I became serious about him, I delved into his culture and religion but it took a lot of time for me to network with other women, who were involved with similiar men, to understand some characteristics of MENA men. It took me time to really see who this man is and what he is about.

Believe me it is quite different than any other relationship I have had before. Somethings I so adore about him and other things drive me mad. It has been hard to mesh our 2 ways of life and expectations. I just find it has been an adjustment for both of us. I feel bad because I find myself losing my patience completely because my husband is someone who is unyielding most of the time. We are working on that. I am also so independent and outgoing. I am a good wife, but I cant be dictated to or isolated. I believe so much of give and take, and 50/50 but I dont know if it will possible with my husband. I believe that his "ways" and expectations stem from where he is from and how is was raised.

I understand about him assuming the role as MAN in my life and wanting to be in control but it is hard for a woman to religuish control completely after living alone and accomplishing so muc,h from nothing, on her own.

I admire all of you for your candid posts. Thanks for sharing. I never thought that I would need to be advised on issues in my marriage.

I thought we would just be married and we would just be happy just for him being here with me. Totally not true. It takes alot of hard work.

It takes both of us working together to have both our needs met and establish the kind of relationship and happy home we want and that we need to succeed.

Thanks Sandrilla, I always appreciate that you share your experiences, good bad and indifferent.

My dad always told me that "marriage is work, make sure you choose a man that you not only lust/love..but that you can get along with like a friend and partner...those butterflies in your stomache ,romantic,nervousness,fun feeling doesnt last and you are left with a partner to live this life with. choose wisely" That was some DAMN good advise

Marriage is work...our circustances make it a whole 'nother animal.

[honeyblonde 0]

My experience is quite different in some ways from most of you here. My husband is not a practicing Muslim, although being from a country where the death penalty is the constitutional requirement for renouncing your born religion, he won't come right out and say he isn't Muslim. He also could care less what cuisine he eats, as long as he likes the food, and he's pretty easy to please in that respect. He is from northern Morocco, from a city that is heavily influenced by European culture, so has more of that outlook on life than a Middle Eastern or North African one. He has a French education in literature, so his general viewpoint is much more liberal than mine.

This is my fourth marriage, and finally, I figured out how to find "the one." I cannot look at this marriage in a vacuum from the rest, because it is those past relationships that helped me learn what to expect in a marriage, and how to treat a partner. Goodness knows I had enough marriage counseling trying to make the first two work.

My first husband was from a totally opposite lifestyle from the way I was raised, but we were pretty compatible for a while. Unfortunately he still hasn't grown up even though he's 50, and after 9 1/2 years of marriage I realized we were going two very different directions in life so ended our relationship. I had my two sons with him but now that they are grown I don't have to see him any more, only occasionally hear from them about his big house with 3 rooms full of video games and computer room with multiple computers and every gaming system ever made.

My second husband was from a home very similar to mine in many ways, but we were worlds apart. I learned from that marriage that "culture" is a very "low-level" classification - not a country or race or even a city, but clear down to the family and even individual. This was a valuable lesson that has helped me a lot in my marriage to Abdel.

My third husband was Moroccan also, but was 10 years younger than me and Muslim. I met him while on a cruise during a time in my life when I had been working 3 jobs and was so immersed in raising my kids that I had quit dating. I was flattered by the attentions of this hot young guy and took a "what do I have to lose" attitude toward his marriage proposal. He was extremely pushy and wouldn't take no for an answer - in anything. That marriage was more stress than anything, and although I was hurt when it ended, I had learned a whole lot about things I'd never even thought about.

When I met Abdel I had become extremely independent, and was working full-time while finishing my degree at night. I was working on a research paper for a Comparative Judicial Systems class and my country of choice was Morocco, since I knew a little about it from my last marriage. Our assignment was to prepare a paper of about 30 pages covering all aspects of the legal system of the country we chose. Our text only covered a few countries, so our professor basically wanted us to write mini-chapters on as many of the missing countries as we had students in the class.

At the time I had a Yahoo Messenger profile, and I had put a comment in it about the paper I was working on. Abdel was helping a friend of his nephew set up a yahoo account and showed him how to search for friends in Morocco. Since I had that word in my profile, I came up in the search. Abdel said he took one look at my picture and profile and decided to get to know me himself. He was using the kids account that day, but had to create his own once the kid started using it. He created a user name that he still uses now that has that kids name in it so I would know it was him when he messaged me again.

Abdel didn't hit on me at all like so many guys do online. He offered to help me with my research on my paper, and really did help me a lot. There were sources I had found that were in French, which I didn't read, and he took hours while I was at work or in class or sleeping finding the same information for me in English. He proofread my paper for me several times, making recommendations on how to make it flow better, critiquing my writing, and questioning my sources if they didn't seem good enough. He had the unique viewpoint of someone from the country I was writing about, so he could give me a viewpoint I didn't have about what I was writing. We formed a strong friendship and quickly fell in love. When I was planning my vacation that summer to go meet him in person, he told me up front "if you decide you don't want to marry me, that's fine. Please don't end our friendship because of it, just tell me. I will still show you Morocco and make sure you have a great vacation, just please don't take your friendship away from me, it means the world to me." Obviously it did work out and we've been together for almost 4 years now.

The first 9 months of our relationship were online but that was good because we spent about 4 hours a night talking to each other about everything. My paper was a good starting point because issues came up in it that gave us an opportunity to address the hard stuff - like Moroccan men marrying for green cards due to the high unemployment rate there. Abdel never lied to me about issues like that. Yes, he did want to go to a country where he could find work and help his family, but he loved me too. He was very poor and never expected to marry so to him that was icing on the cake. Many of his friends spent their entire family's life savings buying work permits to the Middle East or Europe, in hopes of being able to support the family. They had to go to some foreign country and make it on their own, with no wife there to love and take care of helping them adjust.

For those who think that talking online can't really prepare you for marriage, you are missing a lot. I learned from our conversations how loyal Abdel was to me. He missed talking to me maybe 1 week in the entire 9 months, and that was because his brother was attacked and had his head bashed in and was in the neurological ward in the hospital. Abdel went with them to bring food to his sister and niece who were nurses and were taking care of his brother there. He was there to try to help them with whatever they needed so they could focus on his brother. Before he left for the hospital he still went online and sent me a message that he might not be online for a few days because of it all. When I finally called his cell phone after not hearing from him for 3 or 4 days he was thrilled to talk to me and told me he hadn't left the hospital except to go get food since the message he had sent me, and he had hardly slept. Once he got home from all of that he was right back at the cafe every night talking to me.

We didn't just sit there and say "I love you" or "I love you too" for 4 hours a night. We had lengthy discussions about everything from religion to family to food to you name it. I think that this kind of courtship is so much better than what we have in this country where we date a little while then jump into bed, or if religious, are still doing things that keep us from having time to have real conversation with just the two of us.

Yes, there are issues you can never prepare for no matter how much you discuss them. There is no way to prepare someone for life here that has never been here. They will have no concept of what you are talking about. Also, you can never prepare someone for culture shock, no matter how much you discuss it up front. It happens to almost everyone, and makes life really difficult for even the best relationships for as long as it lasts. But you can find out how that person thinks, how they react to stress, if they have a temper, what they like to eat, how they think men and women should interact, etc. You can learn a lot about how your future husband will likely treat you by how he talks about and interacts with his mother and sisters.

Abdel and I found that our personal cultures are very similar in spite of being from two different continents. We both value education and learning and for both of us, having a well-stocked library in our house is a dream come true. When we go to the bookstore, we both end up buying books the other can't wait to read. We think quite alike in the area of religion, even though neither of us is religious. We both love trying food from other cuisines, and want to travel. We are both fascinated with nature and never know who will be next to call the other outside to see an unusual spider or a baby frog. We both try to respect each other and consider spending time with each other as the most valuable use of our time. Abdel has one buddy but doesn't go hang out with him without me. Every time he has tried he's ended up at the door telling me to go get my shoes on and come with them. I don't have any close friends except family, so I never go anywhere without him if he's not at work and awake. He does his fair share of chores, and we share our money. I spend sometimes when I want something, and so does he, but for the most part we both focus on our bills. He does send his family money regularly, but I consider that like the child support any American man my age I could have married would likely have had to pay.

What did I know about his "culture" before I married him? That definitely depends on how you're defining culture here. About his personal culture, I knew what I needed to know. About Middle Eastern and North African culture - I knew that it varies a lot by country and ethnic group and even region, so there is no one "Arab" or "Middle Eastern" culture. I do not know how to cook any of the cuisine except from recipes, and I do not know a whole lot about Islam. Fortunately I married a man whose "culture" does not include those things.

Sorry for the book. You just asked something that really matters to me.

[Y's_habibitk 2]

Wow Honeyblonde. THANKS for that. Im glad you wrote a book

I agree with you that it depends on the depth of convo online/phone that can make a difference. Of course "real life" is different, it is for ANY couple that starts co habitating together. Yazied and I are kind of similar to you guys. and we also spent HOURS talking about real stuff, real life issues.

I was just thinking also that another issue that may play a role in the adjustment and sucess.....how long did it take you to go through this process?

I've said this before but, When I need to find some positive in the fact that we are approaching the year mark in waiting through immi hell; I think of all of the quality time we get to really talk about what is important to us. The level of intimacy and comfortablility that has been reached, usually takes years to develop in a "regular" relationship.

So couples that have an "online courtship" of a few months..get married then have reunion all within a matter of 6-9 months I think would face a different set of issues all together as they havent had the time to delve in as couples who have made it through 8-12 months of being seperated.

Thanks again honey for sharing

Lisa

[honeyblonde 0]

I just wanted to correct one thing. I can't find in the constitution of Morocco where it says there is a death penalty for denying that one is Muslim if they were raised as Muslim, but I do know that I saw it in some of the laws there when I was researching my paper. Maybe it isn't the law any more, but I know that Abdel has grown up with a fear of ever saying he isn't and says that's the reason, so I know it was there at one time, or at least was the suspicion taught to kids.

Thank you Lisa. Our process took about 9 months from the time we met until he arrived, but I think that what really mattered for us was our age. We were both mature adults and had already been through a lot in life. The one thing that made it work so easy for us was being able to bite our tongue. I wonder sometimes how I still have one left as much as I bit it, and I know he did the same. I didn't bite it as often as I should have and we did have some not so nice moments, and he was very close to his family so had a horrible time adjusting. In fact, he's just really started to feel at home here in the past maybe 6 months.

We did a fiancee visa so didn't have to be apart after we got married. I think that was good for us too. In my previous marriage we spent several months apart after we married and it definitely hurt our marriage, although I don't think the time apart did us in - our marriage wasn't that great anyway.

I say value this time apart. Get him to do everything he will regret not doing there before he gets here. Abdel still wishes he had finished his last year of school before he came here because if he had his degree he could be teaching French now instead of working in a warehouse. Value this time getting to know each other better. Once he is here it will be all physical and adjustment and homesickness and so much more and the getting to know each other you do now will only pay off in making that time easier. Does he drive there? If not, tell him to learn if he can. Teaching him to drive will be one of the hardest things you will have to do if he comes here not knowing how.

Edited March 2, 2009 by honeyblonde

[Y's_habibitk 2]

Thanks for the pointers Honeyblnd.

[caybee 21]

I just wanted to correct one thing. I can't find in the constitution of Morocco where it says there is a death penalty for denying that one is Muslim if they were raised as Muslim, but I do know that I saw it in some of the laws there when I was researching my paper. Maybe it isn't the law any more, but I know that Abdel has grown up with a fear of ever saying he isn't and says that's the reason, so I know it was there at one time, or at least was the suspicion taught to kids.

Thank you Lisa. Our process took about 9 months from the time we met until he arrived, but I think that what really mattered for us was our age. We were both mature adults and had already been through a lot in life. The one thing that made it work so easy for us was being able to bite our tongue. I wonder sometimes how I still have one left as much as I bit it, and I know he did the same. I didn't bite it as often as I should have and we did have some not so nice moments, and he was very close to his family so had a horrible time adjusting. In fact, he's just really started to feel at home here in the past maybe 6 months.

We did a fiancee visa so didn't have to be apart after we got married. I think that was good for us too. In my previous marriage we spent several months apart after we married and it definitely hurt our marriage, although I don't think the time apart did us in - our marriage wasn't that great anyway.

I say value this time apart. Get him to do everything he will regret not doing there before he gets here. Abdel still wishes he had finished his last year of school before he came here because if he had his degree he could be teaching French now instead of working in a warehouse. Value this time getting to know each other better. Once he is here it will be all physical and adjustment and homesickness and so much more and the getting to know each other you do now will only pay off in making that time easier. Does he drive there? If not, tell him to learn if he can. Teaching him to drive will be one of the hardest things you will have to do if he comes here not knowing how.

I'm pretty sure the death penalty in general was discontinued in Morocco within the last few years. Can't put my hands on it now, but I remember reading it, and my husband mentioned it too the other day in another context. I do know there is at least a strong cultural prohibition there against apostasy, and it's illegal to proselytize against Islam, so I can understand why Abdel would want to keep quiet about it.

I agree with your advice on making the most of your time apart.

[morocco4ever 63]

Great subject. I knew quite a few Arab men before I met my husband. I wasn't very impressed with them, so I almost didn't give my husband a chance. I can't see losing who I am to please a man, so it was important to me that he accepts me as I am. I wasn't sure he would be able too, but I was pleasantly surprised. Because of the men I knew before him I was well aware of what they expected from a woman and wife. I knew in advance what most of the issues between us could be. I knew what of my life I would be willing to change to fit into his culture, but I also knew what I couldn't accept. We discussed so much in advance, and we came to a common ground. After he got here he wasn't sure he could handle it, but as I said I already knew what I would and wouldn't accept, so I did analyze my priorities, and between us we came up with a good plan for us.

We have been married now over 4 years, and he has been here over 2. Our marriage is stronger than ever, so I am a firm believer in communication beforehand.