Brad Pitt turns Nazi-killing commando in Tarantino bloodfest

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

Mind you, I haven't seen this film, of course, but such such was my conclusion with Pulp Fiction, that morality was disposed of as unnecessary to the enjoyment of pure violence with no explanation or motivation.

Well there was a degree of black comedy in Pulp Fiction, but I do agree that there were some scenes which dealt with graphic violence in a disposible manner - though I think there it was more implied in that film than Reservoir Dogs with the infamous ear cutting scene.

Among writers the decision whether or not to use violence (or sex) is whether doing so advances the plot or reveals character. In the case of Pulp Fiction - the vignette with John Travolta and Samuel L. Jacksons character raiding the apartment wasn't out of character in respect to someone who lives that kind of lifestyle, so in sense it makes some kind of sense to portray the violence as matter of fact. Though of course, given that its an ensemble cast movie and that the focus of the story is only incidentally on those characters (and they're not on the screen long enough to really establish any sort of motivating factors) - the killings do take second place to the self-important dialog and are in a sense, gratuitous.

Of course this isn't something that only Tarantino is guilty of - James Bond (though most of these are rather cartoonish), and to a greater extent '24' are probably more worse offenders than Tarantino.

Slightly on a tangent but I do know at least one well-known author who held himself to be indirectly accountable for a murder which took place in the 1970's where the killer referenced one of his characters as a motivator. The author went to the extent of revising some of his earlier work - and establishing in future books that his character did not support certain ideas.

I suspect Mr Tarantino isn't quite so conscientious.

Edited February 18, 2009 by Paul Daniels

[Peikko 1,575]

Violence can be matter of fact, In Bruges for example, (A whole new level of matter of fact to my mind, but I digress) but that is not what I objected to with Pulp Fiction. I think I was in a minority of one on that though

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

I think when you're dealing with underworld characters establishing a moral framework around which immoral/amoral things take place is rather difficult.

Have you seen Get Carter (the original)?

Its difficult to find anything morally redeeming in that story.

Edited February 18, 2009 by Paul Daniels

[jundp 191]

What bothers me about the premise of this film is the vengeance attitude. In most accounts of the Holocaust, the Jews who fought back didn't do so to torture and be cruel, and it seems to me that portraying a group of Jewish American soldiers as ready to go in and torture the Nazis in the way they tortured the Jews, well that just makes Americans look awful. (<---huge run-on sentence)

I don't know. I'm teach the Holocaust and I've got a great deal of training and education on teaching it and though it's one of the more horrific times in human history I don't think we need movies like this. Tell the real stories. Tell fictional accounts based on truth.

But then again, I'm not a huge Tarantino fan anymore.

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

What bothers me about the premise of this film is the vengeance attitude. In most accounts of the Holocaust, the Jews who fought back didn't do so to torture and be cruel, and it seems to me that portraying a group of Jewish American soldiers as ready to go in and torture the Nazis in the way they tortured the Jews, well that just makes Americans look awful. (<---huge run-on sentence)

I don't know. I'm teach the Holocaust and I've got a great deal of training and education on teaching it and though it's one of the more horrific times in human history I don't think we need movies like this. Tell the real stories. Tell fictional accounts based on truth.

But then again, I'm not a huge Tarantino fan anymore.

Well Tarantino is a fan of 70's exploitation films - that wouldn't be out of character with that sort of material, but it does go back to his being self-indulgent.

[Peikko 1,575]

I think when you're dealing with underworld characters establishing a moral framework around which immoral/amoral things take place is rather difficult.

Have you seen Get Carter (the original)?

Its difficult to find anything morally redeeming in that story.

True, but it seems to work on the idea that even 'thieves have an honour code' which might be different to that which binds the rest of society, but it exists none the less. However, more than that, I think there's this need to identify in some way with some characters in the film to find it even remotely interesting. If there is nothing redeeming about any of them, well then it seems somewhat pointless. An exercise in how much ###### you can shovel at your audience before they say enough and vote with their feet by not watching/reading.

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

Well Grindhouse tanked...

[alienlovechild 75]

Have you seen Get Carter (the original)?

Its difficult to find anything morally redeeming in that story.

Not every story needs a happy Hollywood ending with clear good and bad guys. I haven't get the movie in years but Michael Caine seeking revenge on his fellow mobsters always kicks butt. At least it made more sense than that On Dangerous Ground movie where Steven Seagal kills everyone in sight and blows up an oil refinery in the name of peace and the environment. Yeah, Caine was the bad guy in that one.

I'm teach the Holocaust and I've got a great deal of training and education on teaching it and though it's one of the more horrific times in human history I don't think we need movies like this. Tell the real stories. Tell fictional accounts based on truth.

Don't forget to add that Allies didn't go to war to stop the Holocaust and it wasn't a major issue until after the war. Not to excuse the Nazi slaughter but the mass murder of folks in other countries is largely overlooked and you'll have a hard time finding movies dealing with it. The Killing Fields and Hotel Rwanda are the exceptions.

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

Have you seen Get Carter (the original)?

Its difficult to find anything morally redeeming in that story.

Not every story needs a happy Hollywood ending with clear good and bad guys. I haven't get the movie in years but Michael Caine seeking revenge on his fellow mobsters always kicks butt. At least it made more sense than that On Dangerous Ground movie where Steven Seagal kills everyone in sight and blows up an oil refinery in the name of peace and the environment. Yeah, Caine was the bad guy in that one.

I know that - but that wasn't what I was getting at. Specifically that there wasn't really anything redeeming about his character or the way in which he achieves his revenge. Its self-destructive and a bit nihilistic.

Michael Caine also did Alfie - another amoral character. But there the fact that the guy couldn't work out why his life was $hit was actually the point of the story.

With few exceptions Caine has done some terrible ####### in his career - personally I think he was always rather overrated.

[alienlovechild 75]

I know that - but that wasn't what I was getting at. Specifically that there wasn't really anything redeeming about his character or the way in which he achieves his revenge. Its self-destructive and a bit nihilistic.

Naked men with shotguns have nothing to hide. I suppose you found the violence in the Godfather movies ok because it about about family values and loyalty.

With few exceptions Caine has done some terrible ####### in his career - personally I think he was always rather overrated.

The man made a lot of movies so some sucked. Have you forgotten: Zulu, Sleuth, The Italian Job, the Harry Palmer movies, the Who Would be King? Go and sin no more about slandering his good name unless you also recall him in the Swarm, a Jaws sequel and the Poseidon remake.

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

I know that - but that wasn't what I was getting at. Specifically that there wasn't really anything redeeming about his character or the way in which he achieves his revenge. Its self-destructive and a bit nihilistic.

Naked men with shotguns have nothing to hide. I suppose you found the violence in the Godfather movies ok because it about about family values and loyalty.

You're confusing two separate points. I have no problem with violence in movies or books etc so long as it serves to reveal character or advance the plot.

Within that of course there is a question of theme which sets the context.

That's the basis behind the criticism of pulp fiction - that it does nothing to get the audience to identify with the characters.

I don't have any specific problem with get Carter though as I said I think it pushes a nihilistic view of the world which doesn't provide any catharsis for the audience other than that bad things happen to bad people.

The godfather too is a violent movie but set against Michaels changing outlook and motivations its easier to view him as a fallible human being.

The big criticism of tarantino is that he doesn't create rounded characters, rather he steals cardboard cutouts from other movies and papers over the cracks with clever dialog. Clever, but which doesn't reveal much about the characters.

The two hitmen in pulp fiction are actually based on lee Marvin and clu gulagher's characters from don siegels adaptation of the killers.

The man made a lot of movies so some sucked. Have you forgotten: Zulu, Sleuth, The Italian Job, the Harry Palmer movies, the Who Would be King? Go and sin no more about slandering his good name unless you also recall him in the Swarm, a Jaws sequel and the Poseidon remake.

"I have not seen the movie, but I hear it is terrible. I have seen the house that it paid for and it is superb"

I've never really rated caine particularly highly, even in his early movies the good ones were mainly in spite of, not because of his presence.

I think Oliver reed, Richard Harris and peter o'toole were better actors at that time.

Caine at least was a far superior actor to his bud, Roger Moore.

[I AM NOT THAT GUY 5,715]

I suppose you two are not fans of Robert Rodriguez either. I liked the last two of the Mariachi series, Desperado, and Once Upon a Time in Mexico. Quentin and Robert are definitely simpaticos.

[NickD 203]

I think when you're dealing with underworld characters establishing a moral framework around which immoral/amoral things take place is rather difficult.

Have you seen Get Carter (the original)?

Its difficult to find anything morally redeeming in that story.

True, but it seems to work on the idea that even 'thieves have an honour code' which might be different to that which binds the rest of society, but it exists none the less. However, more than that, I think there's this need to identify in some way with some characters in the film to find it even remotely interesting. If there is nothing redeeming about any of them, well then it seems somewhat pointless. An exercise in how much ###### you can shovel at your audience before they say enough and vote with their feet by not watching/reading.

Pulp Fiction and this new movie are all in good fun, if you really want to see gore, and that is if the military is still showing these films, join the military. They showed actual battle films not released to the public, WW II, Korean War, VN in color. We were forced to watch those films, I don't know why, to scare the hell out of us, make us vomit, many did, piss us off, be more careful, whatever the reason, and they were real, not fiction. Maybe just to get us use to it. Didn't dare drop your head or close your eyes, sergeant was in front watching every man, or boy is a better example, at 18 years of age.

[Peikko 1,575]

I don't want to see gore, not for the sake of it anyway. I agree with PD on this, violence in films should advance the story in some way. Gratuitous violence for the 'thrill' factor is not entertainment.

As to the point of the military watching real life footage of war, it probably is some form of propaganda.

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

I suppose you two are not fans of Robert Rodriguez either. I liked the last two of the Mariachi series, Desperado, and Once Upon a Time in Mexico. Quentin and Robert are definitely simpaticos.

Actually I liked El Mariachi and Desperado. Desperado was a cardboard cutout western with a lot of comedy.