I need more education on halal foods

[sandinista! 1,816]

would leavened bread, yogurt and soy sauce then be prohibited as well in the shafii school?

[UmmSqueakster 54]

I haven't ever read anything that yeast or yogurt et al are not allowed. Ice cream wouldn't be halal if it included vanilla extract.

[catknit 144]

An extract may contain alcohol. As mentioned, there are very few products on the market from manufacturer's dedicated to halal rules.

I was a food scientist who worked for the largest flavor company in the world - yes, there can be ethyl alcohol in an extract but not all extracts contain alcohol. As a matter of fact, you can walk into your local Trader Joe's and pick up Alcohol Free Vanilla Extract. So, if you see something marked as halal with an extract listed, it isn't a contradiction.

I really wish there was a more accessible and freely recognized halal marking system, similar to the kosher marking system. But, getting that done will be rough due to "secret" formula and costs. At least 10 years ago, one of the koshering unions I worked for charged $10,000 per item to be supervised. That company had 100s of kosher products - the math HAS to work out for a food manufacturing to put out that kind of money.

[sandinista! 1,816]

what i'm trying to understand is the rationale behind leavened bread, or yogurt then being allowed in shafii.

without yeast, flour mixed with water and a little salt for bread does not ferment and produce alcohol. the introduced yeast is what causes the fermentation and alcohol. introduced cultures in leben and yogurt are also what cause fermentation in those products.

[catknit 144]

I don't have any resources on me currently but I know that with yogurt the fermentation pathway is to get from lactose to lactic acid. Yeasts are typically not used, bacteria are. Yeasts definitely use a metabolic pathway that creates ethyl alcohol. Is there an intermediate step for bacteria that passes thru EtOH? I don't recall. One major marker would be the lack of bubbling in the process. That to me dictates a process that should be EtOH free...but I fully admit to shooting from the hip on that answer. As to whether you could run a sample thru say a GC or HPLC [machines used to determine chemical components of an item] and get some amount of alcohol??? Possibly, but it would be super small amounts I'd venture to guess.

From the religious stand point, as was once explained to me by a consultant in the halalification in the processed food industry [ok, ok I made that word up] - and I don't know which school he abided by - if the alcohol was naturally present [ie, super small amounts of alcohol present in ripe bananas right off the tree] it was ok. I'd think yogurt would easily fall under that umbrella for what little may be present.

As for bread, I couldn't even venture to guess since the yeast is intentionally added [but not for the alcohol producing aspect]...

[sandinista! 1,816]

i've read that it's possible for there to be some fermentation in yogurt-not from bacteria, but accidental introduction of yeast. i don't believe bacteria produce ETOH either. i have a friend who is a microbiologist-i'll have to ask her sometime. probably really unlikely with commercially produced stuff, but maybe in home-made yogurt. leben and keffir definitely ferment though.

i don't understand why leavened bread wouldn't be considered irrevocably contaminated though.

[Y's_habibitk 2]

bump for Venus

[venusfire503 54]

bump for Venus

Thank you!

By the way, I was just thinking about all this back and forth about what is or is not allowed. First I must say that I DON'T want to get in the middle of an argument - just want to put another thought out there. I know that since I'm not Muslim, I don't really have a 'right' to say anything, in a way. However, I think that some people need to keep in mind that we non-Muslims are just doing our best to accommodate our Muslim spouses with our limited information. As in any other religion, there are some who are more observant than others. I think that when some people here are giving advice, they're doing it in the context of what the individual feels is OK, not necessarily what someone official would approve of. For example, with the halal meat debate - while some feel it's ok to eat non-halal meats for whatever reason, others say the religion doesn't allow it. For those of us with Muslim SOs, please keep in mind that we're just looking for the best answers we can. As far as I'm concerned, I'm only worried about doing what makes my husband happy and comfortable, not with trying to follow all the rules 100%. As a matter of fact, I don't think he likes it too much when I tell him about something I read somewhere that's more strict than what he normally does! Makes sense - I wouldn't want someone telling me that I'm not "Catholic" enough (even though I don't really consider myself much of a follower).

So, let's all try to remember that when someone is giving advice, they're doing it with good intentions and with the best information they have. The way I understand it, this is a religion that is understanding of the fact that people are in different parts of their journey, and the point is (again, as I understand it) to do your best, and try to keep doing better.

venusfire