16 illegals sue Arizona rancher

[Peikko 1,575]

It's not a valid comparison at all. List one is full of hyperbole:

Time: That can be a doozy but it's rare for the wait times to be longer than 2 years for the majority of visa applicants.

Cost: Negligible, really, the cost is absolutely nothing in real terms.

Provide proofs: Easy, seriously, unless you have had a very short relationship or somehow you didn't join the digital age.

Go through hassle of trips to see loved one: Most people enjoy these trips, very much, learning about the culture and family of their loved one (on either side). This is not a hassle for the majority.

Dealing with POE: If you get to the US with a visa legally, it's not a problem.

Red Tape on arrival: Sure, but who really cares once they have got here?

What visas can be difficult to get? For whom to where???

Bank accounts difficult to open? For whom??? Credit cards yes, but I can't see how it would be easier if you are illegal, unless you are talking of stealing them. Buying property - not difficult - credit of course it is difficult for everyone.

Get a drivers licence: It takes time, but once you have your SSN, off you go, no problem.

Vote: Not unless one is a citizen. Again, not sure how your illegal manages to vote legally.

Anyone can do anything illegal but that doesn't make that a valid or useful comparison. If you are an illegal immigrant your options are necessarily limited, very, very limited and it is not an option for anyone who has access to a legal route, period.

[DeadPoolX 9]

It's not a valid comparison at all. List one is full of hyperbole:

Time: That can be a doozy but it's rare for the wait times to be longer than 2 years for the majority of visa applicants.

Cost: Negligible, really, the cost is absolutely nothing in real terms.

Provide proofs: Easy, seriously, unless you have had a very short relationship or somehow you didn't join the digital age.

Go through hassle of trips to see loved one: Most people enjoy these trips, very much, learning about the culture and family of their loved one (on either side). This is not a hassle for the majority.

Dealing with POE: If you get to the US with a visa legally, it's not a problem.

Red Tape on arrival: Sure, but who really cares once they have got here?

What visas can be difficult to get? For whom to where???

Bank accounts difficult to open? For whom??? Credit cards yes, but I can't see how it would be easier if you are illegal, unless you are talking of stealing them. Buying property - not difficult - credit of course it is difficult for everyone.

Get a drivers licence: It takes time, but once you have your SSN, off you go, no problem.

Vote: Not unless one is a citizen. Again, not sure how your illegal manages to vote legally.

Anyone can do anything illegal but that doesn't make that a valid or useful comparison. If you are an illegal immigrant your options are necessarily limited, very, very limited and it is not an option for anyone who has access to a legal route, period.

The above is your opinion. I have mine.

But let's get past that for a moment. Maybe the legal route is preferable in some situations, but let's assume -- for the sake of our argument -- that the person in question cannot legally immigrate. You said their options are limited. No, their options are not limited. They do not have a right to enter the U.S., regardless of which options are available to them. Simply because they feel like entering and claim "no other way" is not good enough.

[Peikko 1,575]

Can you possibly keep on track?

We were talking about your lists. I am just commenting that anyone who has illegally immigrated has exceedingly limited options as to what they can and can't do within the US.

I have not gone on to assess the options of what people should or should not do if they do not have access to legal immigration as, guess what? That is not what your lists are comparing.

[DeadPoolX 9]

Can you possibly keep on track?

We were talking about your lists. I am just commenting that anyone who has illegally immigrated has exceedingly limited options as to what they can and can't do within the US.

I have not gone on to assess the options of what people should or should not do if they do not have access to legal immigration as, guess what? That is not what your lists are comparing.

You mentioned options and then referenced legal immigration. Therefore, I am keeping on task. If you only want to discuss my lists, that's fine, but don't bring anything else into the conversation.

[Peikko 1,575]

I didn't reference anything else. Sorry if you can't understand what your own lists pertain to.

Your lists are trying to suggest that illegal immigration is an attractive notion, much better than the long winded, annoying, expensive legal route.

I said, quite clearly that your lists were full of hyperbole. If you can legally immigrate you will. Nothing attractive about illegal immigration, period. It has no positive side.

I have not speculated on what one should or should not do if one does not have access to legal immigration, not now, not then, not ever.

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

Why would anyone immigrate illegally if they had the legal option?

Perhaps if you were coming from somewhere so impoverished that you couldn't afford the filing fees, but that's about it. Surely...

[HAL 9000 96]

Why would anyone immigrate illegally if they had the legal option?

Perhaps if you were coming from somewhere so impoverished that you couldn't afford the filing fees, but that's about it. Surely...

Wow... such a convenience to be illegal. Golly gee... I am flabbergasted, why- then... VJers don't just up and out themselves into the illegal process and be done with it.

When people have little to no options, and family survival is at stake, people will do what they have to do.

I used to talk a lot about making the inequality less unequal when we have traditionally been (as a government and economy and even as a geography) on the positive receiving end... then we solve any problems that arise as a result of that inequality by turning the unequal into equals. Or we can continue the unequal relationship, continue benefiting as a whole... and continue to see problems arise.

But of course... its a joke to make fun of people wanting to survive 'because they want a better life.'

I seriously wish sometimes that people that have no conscience to these sort of things learn the hard way how it feels to go through a fraction of the things some of these illegals have to go through in order to meet a basic human necessity: survival.

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

"Rights" are irrelevant to the issue too, I suspect.

It seems to me that telling someone who can't afford 3 square meals or the fourth wall for their tin shack house that they not don't have a right to migrate to somewhere better probably isn't going to be a particularly convincing argument to someone considering it out of basic necessity.

[DeadPoolX 9]

"Rights" are irrelevant to the issue too, I suspect.

It seems to me that telling someone who can't afford 3 square meals or the fourth wall for their tin shack house that they not don't have a right to migrate to somewhere better probably isn't going to be a particularly convincing argument to someone considering it out of basic necessity.

They have every right in the world to go someplace else. They do not, however, have the right to migrate illegally. Provided people immigrate legally, their right to move from one country to another is widely available.

[HAL 9000 96]

"Rights" are irrelevant to the issue too, I suspect.

It seems to me that telling someone who can't afford 3 square meals or the fourth wall for their tin shack house that they not don't have a right to migrate to somewhere better probably isn't going to be a particularly convincing argument to someone considering it out of basic necessity.

B/C its not our responsibility to solve other people's problems while our companies continue to make quite a profit in those countries.

Sick logic, but true. Like I said... sometimes I wish... but that's not a particularly realistic wish. And for those that it does happen to... quite a game and attitude changer I'd say!

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

"Rights" are irrelevant to the issue too, I suspect.

It seems to me that telling someone who can't afford 3 square meals or the fourth wall for their tin shack house that they not don't have a right to migrate to somewhere better probably isn't going to be a particularly convincing argument to someone considering it out of basic necessity.

They have every right in the world to go someplace else. They do not, however, have the right to migrate illegally. Provided people immigrate legally, their right to move from one country to another is widely available.

They don't have the legal right, no. But if your needs are driven by basic necessity - such considerations aren't likely to dissuade you.

I can certainly understand it - and I doubt many here would hold up to their high moral standards if they themselves were put in a similar position.

[Ban Hammer 13,337]

I often wonder why anyone chooses to legally immigrate these days. Let's compare the two:

Legal Immigration

1. Spend tons of time apart.

2. Pay tons of money.

3. Provide proof of a relationship (and possibly get told to show more proof later on).

4. Go through the hassle of making trips to see your loved one.

5. Have to deal with Customs, which could turn you away.

6. Once here, you need to still go through a huge roll of red tape.

7. Visas can be difficult to get.

8. Open bank accounts, get credit cards and own property.

9. Get a driver's license.

10. Vote in elections.

Illegal Immigrants

1. Can be together right away.

2. No money necessary.

3. No proof necessary.

4. After crossing the border, no trips are required.

5. No Customs to deal with.

6. No red tape.

7. Visas of all kind are irrelevant.

8. Open bank accounts, get credit cards and own property.

9. Get a driver's license (or drive illegally).

10. Vote in elections (this is due to voter's registration at the DMV).

So what is the benefit to legally immigrating? With illegal immigrants demanding their "constitutional rights" every day, the line between legal and illegal quickly becomes blurred.

That's just silly. If you can do it legally, or course you will! Wait times and costs are as nothing to the benefits. Still, you did the illegal route yourselves because it was more 'convenient'? No, you did it legally because you are upright citizens. Laugh, not a lot.

um no, your crystal ball must be cloudy. it's because i'd lose my job

and those that are lame..are too tired..well, that is waht a good 30-30 is for

do you even know what a 30-30 is?

Sarcasm detector faulty Charles? My point, you did it legally because there are SIGNIFICANT benefits from the legal route and nobody in their right mind would go illegal if they have the legal option. Therefore the 'list' is meaningless rhetoric serving no one any good.

pawn it off on sarcasm when you are way off the mark

you still looking up what a 30-30 is?

[Peikko 1,575]

I often wonder why anyone chooses to legally immigrate these days. Let's compare the two:

Legal Immigration

1. Spend tons of time apart.

2. Pay tons of money.

3. Provide proof of a relationship (and possibly get told to show more proof later on).

4. Go through the hassle of making trips to see your loved one.

5. Have to deal with Customs, which could turn you away.

6. Once here, you need to still go through a huge roll of red tape.

7. Visas can be difficult to get.

8. Open bank accounts, get credit cards and own property.

9. Get a driver's license.

10. Vote in elections.

Illegal Immigrants

1. Can be together right away.

2. No money necessary.

3. No proof necessary.

4. After crossing the border, no trips are required.

5. No Customs to deal with.

6. No red tape.

7. Visas of all kind are irrelevant.

8. Open bank accounts, get credit cards and own property.

9. Get a driver's license (or drive illegally).

10. Vote in elections (this is due to voter's registration at the DMV).

So what is the benefit to legally immigrating? With illegal immigrants demanding their "constitutional rights" every day, the line between legal and illegal quickly becomes blurred.

That's just silly. If you can do it legally, or course you will! Wait times and costs are as nothing to the benefits. Still, you did the illegal route yourselves because it was more 'convenient'? No, you did it legally because you are upright citizens. Laugh, not a lot.

um no, your crystal ball must be cloudy. it's because i'd lose my job

and those that are lame..are too tired..well, that is waht a good 30-30 is for

do you even know what a 30-30 is?

Sarcasm detector faulty Charles? My point, you did it legally because there are SIGNIFICANT benefits from the legal route and nobody in their right mind would go illegal if they have the legal option. Therefore the 'list' is meaningless rhetoric serving no one any good.

pawn it off on sarcasm when you are way off the mark

you still looking up what a 30-30 is?

No, as I have said several times now, the lists are rubbish designed to whip up some stupid outrage about 'how unfair it is' that illegals get to immigrate so much more easily and quickly than the poor unfortunate legal immigrants. That is what is WAY OFF THE MARK.

[Hilarious Clinton 452]

Why would anyone immigrate illegally if they had the legal option?

Perhaps if you were coming from somewhere so impoverished that you couldn't afford the filing fees, but that's about it. Surely...

No fees, little taxes and free medical care.

[I AM NOT THAT GUY 5,715]

I often wonder why anyone chooses to legally immigrate these days. Let's compare the two:

Legal Immigration

1. Spend tons of time apart.

2. Pay tons of money.

3. Provide proof of a relationship (and possibly get told to show more proof later on).

4. Go through the hassle of making trips to see your loved one.

5. Have to deal with Customs, which could turn you away.

6. Once here, you need to still go through a huge roll of red tape.

7. Visas can be difficult to get.

8. Open bank accounts, get credit cards and own property.

9. Get a driver's license.

10. Vote in elections.

Illegal Immigrants

1. Can be together right away.

2. No money necessary.

3. No proof necessary.

4. After crossing the border, no trips are required.

5. No Customs to deal with.

6. No red tape.

7. Visas of all kind are irrelevant.

8. Open bank accounts, get credit cards and own property.

9. Get a driver's license (or drive illegally).

10. Vote in elections (this is due to voter's registration at the DMV).

So what is the benefit to legally immigrating? With illegal immigrants demanding their "constitutional rights" every day, the line between legal and illegal quickly becomes blurred.

That's just silly. If you can do it legally, or course you will! Wait times and costs are as nothing to the benefits. Still, you did the illegal route yourselves because it was more 'convenient'? No, you did it legally because you are upright citizens. Laugh, not a lot.

um no, your crystal ball must be cloudy. it's because i'd lose my job

and those that are lame..are too tired..well, that is waht a good 30-30 is for

do you even know what a 30-30 is?

Sarcasm detector faulty Charles? My point, you did it legally because there are SIGNIFICANT benefits from the legal route and nobody in their right mind would go illegal if they have the legal option. Therefore the 'list' is meaningless rhetoric serving no one any good.

pawn it off on sarcasm when you are way off the mark

you still looking up what a 30-30 Win is?

Does that help?