Abortion debate

[Boorai 0]

And if I may offer up my opinions:

Life is life...regardless of its size or demensions. A cell is life, an atom is life, a proton, a neutron...life. So, with conception...life begets life. THIS IS NO SPONTANGEOUS GENERATION IN REPRODUCTION. At ANY level, with ANY lives.

So, there debate about when life begins is easily answered....it always exists. So, now we move onto the question of humanity. When does it become human. Again, very easily answered. When God breathed choose it too be. If you are a person of faith, they ...easily answered. When His will was done(conception)...a human was created. For those who do not believe in a faith-based inspiration...we refer to science; my very first point; life begets life thus a human life.

What gets lost in all this debate about abortion, especially amongst the Pro-Choice group...is what rights do the Fathers have in this decision? Half of the baby's genes came from the father. Does he not have a right to the decision to abort or not?!?!? Many would say "woman's body, woman's decision"...but is this right? What if the Father wanted the child be be born and yet the mother aborted; does teh father have no right in determining the outcome? Woman's body; yes.....woman's baby; no....it is a shared life.

We have a tendency to equate a fetus that a dog or cat. That in the abscence of its ability to communicate for itself or the inability to interpret teh world as we do(b/c its yet to experience the world) that it less-than-human. Because there is a "distancing" from how WE interpret the world...we assume that a fetus has not done this thus unaware of the richs and joy that the world can bring(ills as well). So, that it can be aborted because it does not know what it is missing. This makes the decision all the more easier and brings comfort and relieve to those choosing to abort. When in reality, a fetus has experienced MUCH of the world through its mother. Its easy to treat an animal as less-than-human...even though it feels emotion, pain, stress, sadness. etc etc etc....just like we do. And its been proven that a fetus feels these emotions as well.

To the poster who said that abortion are ok if there are life compatibilty issues. I say shame on you. God breathed life into ALL of our lungs for a purpose. What right do we have to say that because of a congenital deformality that THAt life has nothing to offer. Or that THAT life will only suffer thus bringing no reason into this world. i truly believe(and I am a nurse and witnessed death MANY times over) that each of us has a purpose and that until our very last breathe we can influence another...put a mark on another's life.

I have seen this many times and been affected in such ways many more times.

[Mags 112]

To the poster who said that abortion are ok if there are life compatibilty issues. I say shame on you. God breathed life into ALL of our lungs for a purpose. What right do we have to say that because of a congenital deformality that THAt life has nothing to offer. Or that THAT life will only suffer thus bringing no reason into this world. i truly believe(and I am a nurse and witnessed death MANY times over) that each of us has a purpose and that until our very last breathe we can influence another...put a mark on another's life.

If you're referring to me you need to re-read my post.

If a fetus is found to have an abnormality which means that it will die, horribly, within a few months of birth I say that the parents should consider termination. That child will be in pain and will have no quality of life. In those circumstances I say you are actually sparing the child an unpleasant few months which will only end in death.

With regards to other syndromes like Down or other birth defects like CP I say no. Those children have a chance at an enjoyable life with the right support.

I knew of a woman who begged to have a termination at 33 weeks cause her child had a cleft palate. I was disgusted.

[Boorai 0]

To the poster who said that abortion are ok if there are life compatibilty issues. I say shame on you. God breathed life into ALL of our lungs for a purpose. What right do we have to say that because of a congenital deformality that THAt life has nothing to offer. Or that THAT life will only suffer thus bringing no reason into this world. i truly believe(and I am a nurse and witnessed death MANY times over) that each of us has a purpose and that until our very last breathe we can influence another...put a mark on another's life.

If you're referring to me you need to re-read my post.

If a fetus is found to have an abnormality which means that it will die, horribly, within a few months of birth I say that the parents should consider termination. That child will be in pain and will have no quality of life. In those circumstances I say you are actually sparing the child an unpleasant few months which will only end in death.

With regards to other syndromes like Down or other birth defects like CP I say no. Those children have a chance at an enjoyable life with the right support.

I knew of a woman who begged to have a termination at 33 weeks cause her child had a cleft palate. I was disgusted.

Pain management, quality of life...how exacty do yo measures these in such a child? Yes there are ways to measure pain in a baby...but how do you meaure quality of life??!!?...would you apply the same rules to our elderly who cannot communicate? Who have had a stroke and cannot express themselves? Should they get extinguished because they have no quality of life?

My point is that EVERY life has meaning, EVERY life has other lives that it influences. We do not know WHY God brings each of us into this world, but we know that he does.....for a purpose. I do not understand why or how we can intercede that.

Yes, quality of life is important..i agree 100% with you on that..but its not for us to determine what that is.

[Boorai 0]

I cannot fathom a government or a doctor or any body of authority determining the defintion of Quality of Life...I am horrored to think of it.

[Danno 1,228]

The penny drops, according to these fine upstanding morally conflicted (but still moral) folks) we're not apparently not aware that abortion is an ugly medical procedure involving blood, guts and a fair bit of discomfort and mental anguish. See I was thinking that someone just waved their hands, said a bit of mumbo jumbo and that's all there is to it.

Corpses, body parts, bits of tissue! Who knew!?

Gee whizz! If I'd have known that in the first place I'd never have taken the pro-choice stance.

Danno has really opened my eyes to the harsh meathook realities of life!

Not.

Well then PD, my work here with you is now finished

Unfortunately there yet remain many eyes still closed.

Take for example the 18 yr old girl in the other Abortion thread, here she was ready to purge

a blob of tissue from her body, even paying a hefty sum to the Abortionist for this service.

What was it that made her change her mind in an instant?

IN that case she happened to see it was... her own flesh and blood bleeding on the floor with arms and legs and movement.

Let people see what it is they are supporting. Sunlight is often a good disinfectant.

[Mags 112]

But I'm not religious. I don't quantify my statements with "God made us all" and use that as a reason for allowing children to be born into a world where they will only know pain and suffering.

And there is no correlation between the situation of an elderly person and a fetus.

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

The penny drops, according to these fine upstanding morally conflicted (but still moral) folks) we're not apparently not aware that abortion is an ugly medical procedure involving blood, guts and a fair bit of discomfort and mental anguish. See I was thinking that someone just waved their hands, said a bit of mumbo jumbo and that's all there is to it.

Corpses, body parts, bits of tissue! Who knew!?

Gee whizz! If I'd have known that in the first place I'd never have taken the pro-choice stance.

Danno has really opened my eyes to the harsh meathook realities of life!

Not.

Well then PD, my work here with you is now finished

Unfortunately there yet remain many eyes still closed.

Take for example the 18 yr old girl in the other Abortion thread, here she was ready to purge

a blob of tissue from her body, even paying a hefty sum to the Abortionist for this service.

What was it that made her change her mind in an instant?

IN that case she happened to see it was... her own flesh and blood bleeding on the floor with arms and legs and movement.

Let people see what it is they are supporting. Sunlight is often a good disinfectant.

You don't think that there's a fair bit of counselling that goes into that process?

One botched job by a disreputable doctor, conducting a procedure at a point in the pregnany that many pro-choice people would draw the line at proves nothing.

Edited February 8, 2009 by Paul Daniels

[Boorai 0]

But I'm not religious. I don't quantify my statements with "God made us all" and use that as a reason for allowing children to be born into a world where they will only know pain and suffering.

And there is no correlation between the situation of an elderly person and a fetus.

No correlation!?!??! As we age our growth slowly...from birth until death we digress. The elderly, in many respect, can become infantile. Unfortunately through disease and disorder this is fact.

What we are debating is quality of life and the determination to continue that life.

And with respects to your scientific view...or what I presume is your scientific view or at least your view minus God(which is impossible to do)..but ok, I can play along:

Then view if philisophically. Influence from one human to another...or do you believe that infant, babies have no influence, no good to offer onto this world or another human being? Are there people living amongst us that have no purpose in life, that are only breathing air? That have absolutely nothing to offer to anyone? And is there an age by which one WOULD offer unto others? Are babies, infants, a fetus exempt from influencing, comforting, bonding, interacting, feeling, perceptualizing, emoting....smiling?

Is is EXTREMELY rare to have a scenario fit your description. A child to live for few months in horrible pain. Rare, IF existant...it would be inhuman to permit one to rithe in pain. Medication control of this would occur. Thus improving quality of life.

Please offer to us a realistic scenario...a disorder or disease that would cause such great pain and lack of quality of life. I would be interested in knowing of one. One that could not be managed. Yes, there are some that can end in a negative outcome, but there are none that cannot be managed..even for a short time. During this time allowing for bonding with mother and father....affecting each other's lives.

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

The people who have to give lifelong 24/7 care to a child with massive birth defects should surely have something to say about whether they or their child should have to go through that.

The decision to abort is (and should be) up to the parents.

[Boorai 0]

and what happens when the mother chooses to abort.......even if the father does not want it so? What are HIS rights?

Edited February 8, 2009 by Boorai

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

and what happens when the mother chooses to abort.......even if they father does not want it so? What are HIS rights?

None.

[Boorai 0]

oh wow..I must say that is surprising. That child carries half the father genes. The father should have a say in this.

How can a woman force a man 1)INTO fatherhood and 2)OUT of fatherhood!?!?!?!?!?

Edited February 8, 2009 by Boorai

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

oh wow..I must say that is surprising. That child carries half the father genes. The father should have a say in this.

That would imply that he should have some right of ownership over the woman's body.

He doesn't.

[HAL 9000 96]

My husband used to be pro choice. After we heard our baby's heart beat only 7 weeks into our pregnancy, he changed his mind. He told me "that is a life, no doubt"

We still understand abortion under certain extreme circumstances, but only if done very very early into the pregnancy. Not someone that wants to abort, I dunno, 8 months into the pregnancy after sex they had out of their own free will

Saludos,

Caro

Fortunately such cases are in fact quite rare. Most abortions (about 85%) are done during the first trimester, with another 13% during the second, and only a small percentage during the third. CDC data says about 2%, and most of those cases are thought to be the sort of situations where the baby is a threat to the mother's life and has no chance of survival; otherwise at that point, most doctors and women would just choose to deliver the baby.

Propaganda videos like this one are almost certainly medical pictures of stillbirths and miscarriages, and medically induced abortions. There just aren't all that many abortions where the fetus looks like a full-term baby (or tons of video footage in abortion clinics.)

Lets just stick to the facts. If a person is pro-choice, then fine. If they are anti-abortion, then fine as well. No reason why these two independent choice events need to impose upon one another.

Life is life. Imposition is imposition.

I could easily google pictures of monkeys, pigs, cows, dolphins, whales, large mammals in womb and could very likely fool a good deal of life scientists into thinking they were human embryos and in some cases, fetuses. Does that mean I'd do it to mislead? That would be irresponsible and meanspirited. Just like using lies and ignorance to impose upon others my own beliefs.

Hal, sometimes you make sense... and other times I have to read your posts 2 or 3 times to figure out where you are going.

Who has used lies and ignorance?

While a few people have suggested that some of the pics are not from abortions, has anyone proved that?

Of the pics that some claim might be from something other than a abortion, would more photos or other photos of an actual abortion look any differnt?

we know these abortions take place at these stages and we can imagine that the sigh of a fully formed baby ... in parts or whole would not be a pretty sight.

Who said they'd be a cute sight?

I have seen plenty of human cadavers from all stages of development, embryonic, fetal, 'baby', postnatal, young, adult, etc, to make my own opinions. Its not the first time I've heard (and seen) misleading 'evidence' used by the anti-abortion crowd to try to garner emotional support for something they can't accomplish with reason alone.

The penny drops, according to these fine upstanding morally conflicted (but still moral) folks) we're not apparently not aware that abortion is an ugly medical procedure involving blood, guts and a fair bit of discomfort and mental anguish. See I was thinking that someone just waved their hands, said a bit of mumbo jumbo and that's all there is to it.

Corpses, body parts, bits of tissue! Who knew!?

Gee whizz! If I'd have known that in the first place I'd never have taken the pro-choice stance.

Danno has really opened my eyes to the harsh meathook realities of life!

Not.

[Boorai 0]

oh wow..I must say that is surprising. That child carries half the father genes. The father should have a say in this.

That would imply that he should have some right of ownership over the woman's body.

He doesn't.

Rights over the woman's body...no. I agree with you. But the CHILD'S body is not the mother's nor the father's OR its BOTH the mother's and the father's.