Abortion debate

[Chica Yeyé 41]

Jeez for the last time: will you get over the "Father" thing.

He loss is nothing compared to that child pulled from the womb.... piece by piece.

Not a child Danno; a fetus. Save me the melodrama dude. I feel more for people who die in combat zones, or starve to death in Africa because we are too preoccupied arguing about a woman's right to choose. Seriously, perspective is a wonderful thing.

[HAL 9000 96]

Jeez for the last time: will you get over the "Father" thing.

He loss is nothing compared to that childnon-viable fetus pulled from the womb.... piece by piece.

And you get over your wanting to imposing your values unto others?

And fixxored your post for ya too.

[Waldo 0]

My mom said I could be anything I wanted when I grew up so I told her I wanted to be an abortion!

[Waldo 0]

My mom said I could be anything I wanted when I grew up so I told her I wanted to be an abortion!

I found the cure for abortion on a similar link as well.

[Sprailenes 47]

Perhaps the words Rights needs defined:

the right to chooses whether your child lives or dies, the right to love that child, the right to rear that child, the right to want to pass onto your child good qualities, the right to share the life that you HELPED create, the right to take ownership of your actions, the right to share the joy of your child.

These are the rights that I speak of....not legal rights. Though those should be considered as well.

Many assume that because the mother is the environment that the child is in..that the growth and development of that child is interlink to that of the mother's, thus giving her ultimate authority over the well being of the child. There Is much truth to that, but the child, at conception, is a life unto itself and seperate from the mother. Pro-choicers would conclude that since the child is "part" of the woman's body that the decision of the fetus are her's exclusively.

Let's not forget that the fetus share half of its genes from the mother and half from the father....So, that growth, the tisse IS part of the father's. No, he does not have the ability to provied the bilogical environment nor be the vessel for teh fetus...but he DOES have his own personal tissue growing inside the womb.

Does this not give him(to all the scientist) some right to govern how HIS DNA, his genes, his tissue is to be maintained? The mother carries nor more, no less genetic tissue offerings to the fetus than the father does. The only difference is the vessel it is carried in. Yes, i know this is significant..I am well aware of this.

You're going on as if both partners NEVER discuss this and women just go off on their own, which does happen often, but also many women do talk to their sex partners about it... many times both make the decision. Kind of goes both ways.

A woman chooses to abort the fetus when a woman doesn't want to carry a baby to term, nor does she want the responsibility of having a baby. So because a man wants the baby she needs to carry it to term for 9 months, she needs to give birth??? Do you realize how that sounds?

What happens to the young mother who has to go to school or has parents and a community who will shun her because of it? Oh wait, it could be like a punishment right!? That'll teach her. All because some guy wants her to keep this baby inside of her.

Either way you look at it, the decision is selfish yes, but you want the man to make the decision.

I understand both gene pools are involved, but until that baby is born, that decision is the woman's, its our bodies.

Regardless, your way is just as immoral as a woman not discussing it. If we were to look at it from your point of view.

My only point was that the father gets exluded in these decisions. When there may very well be a loving, capable father. The argument of "its a woman's body"; just is not good enough(too me). Because, the babies body is not her's and the father must has rights in these type of decisions.

I have already made my arugment.

Your argument is primitive and goes back to men telling us what we can and can not do with our bodies.

Edited February 9, 2009 by Sprailenes

[Chica Yeyé 41]

Hi sister Sprailenes!!!! Good to see you in this neck of the woods hermana!!!!

[HAL 9000 96]

Perhaps the words Rights needs defined:

the right to chooses whether your child lives or dies, the right to love that child, the right to rear that child, the right to want to pass onto your child good qualities, the right to share the life that you HELPED create, the right to take ownership of your actions, the right to share the joy of your child.

These are the rights that I speak of....not legal rights. Though those should be considered as well.

Many assume that because the mother is the environment that the child is in..that the growth and development of that child is interlink to that of the mother's, thus giving her ultimate authority over the well being of the child. There Is much truth to that, but the child, at conception, is a life unto itself and seperate from the mother. Pro-choicers would conclude that since the child is "part" of the woman's body that the decision of the fetus are her's exclusively.

Let's not forget that the fetus share half of its genes from the mother and half from the father....So, that growth, the tisse IS part of the father's. No, he does not have the ability to provied the bilogical environment nor be the vessel for teh fetus...but he DOES have his own personal tissue growing inside the womb.

Does this not give him(to all the scientist) some right to govern how HIS DNA, his genes, his tissue is to be maintained? The mother carries nor more, no less genetic tissue offerings to the fetus than the father does. The only difference is the vessel it is carried in. Yes, i know this is significant..I am well aware of this.

You're going on as if both partners NEVER discuss this and women just go off on their own, which does happen often, but also many women do talk to their sex partners about it... many times both make the decision. Kind of goes both ways.

A woman chooses to abort the fetus when a woman doesn't want to carry a baby to term, nor does she want the responsibility of having a baby. So because a man wants the baby she needs to carry it to term for 9 months, she needs to give birth??? Do you realize how that sounds?

What happens to the young mother who has to go to school or has parents and a community who will shun her because of it? Oh wait, it could be like a punishment right!? That'll teach her. All because some guy wants her to keep this baby inside of her.

Either way you look at it, the decision is selfish yes, but you want the man to make the decision.

I understand both gene pools are involved, but until that baby is born, that decision is the woman's, its our bodies.

Regardless, your way is just as immoral as a woman not discussing it. If we were to look at it from your point of view.

My only point was that the father gets exluded in these decisions. When there may very well be a loving, capable father. The argument of "its a woman's body"; just is not good enough(too me). Because, the babies body is not her's and the father must has rights in these type of decisions.

I have already made my arugment.

Your argument is primitive and goes back to men telling us what we can and can not do with our bodies.

Me want sandwich. I go tell wo-man down in cafeteria to make me one.

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

Abortion!? We'll see about that!

[DeadPoolX 9]

It doesn't matter whose responsibility it is - it happens, and if the woman has crappy self esteem or isn't good at asserting herself arguing responsibility isn't going to help.

Nothing "just happens." People make choices. Sometimes they make the right ones and other times they make the wrong ones. Men are hardly the sole decision makers when it comes to sex.

Okay... so let me get this straight: The responsibility doesn't matter so long as the woman has either "low self-esteem" or "isn't good at arguing her point." However, the responsibility is solely on the man if he's "too horny to keep himself from sticking it in."

Wow. I cannot even begin to fathom that incredibly perverse logic.

Of course women feel the pressure to have sex. It's then their responsibility to stop it before it goes too far. If the woman is "too horny" to reject a man's urge to "stick it in," then that's her fault. If it's all about the woman's body, then she should take better care of it.

Yeah, but then she won't love us enough to show it...

Hardly a good reason and you know it.

Your argument is primitive and goes back to men telling us what we can and can not do with our bodies.

You know that's not the case at all. Not at least with my argument.

I'm saying that the man and the woman have an equal responsibility to ensure pregnancy does not occur. If it does happen, then the woman may choose to have the baby or terminate it. However, if the woman's wishes run contrary to the man's, then he should have the option of choosing to help support the woman or not.

My basic reasoning comes down to that you can't expect to have all the rights and all the choices and then expect someone else to pay for you. It's all very fair, especially since BOTH partners made the choice to have sex.

Me want sandwich. I go tell wo-man down in cafeteria to make me one.

Now you're being juvenile. Your comment has nothing to do with abortion or children.

[Caladan 19]

The support comes from duties owed to the *child*. Not the woman. The woman, once the kid is born, is in exactly the same position as the father. Support the child, provide for the child's support, or (jointly) terminate parental rights. Support for the child starts at birth (not before.)

Being able to terminate child support based on the idea that the woman didn't have an abortion is a conceptually confused claim. (Not to mention, likely quite bad practically.)

[Sprailenes 47]

It doesn't matter whose responsibility it is - it happens, and if the woman has crappy self esteem or isn't good at asserting herself arguing responsibility isn't going to help.

Nothing "just happens." People make choices. Sometimes they make the right ones and other times they make the wrong ones. Men are hardly the sole decision makers when it comes to sex.

Okay... so let me get this straight: The responsibility doesn't matter so long as the woman has either "low self-esteem" or "isn't good at arguing her point." However, the responsibility is solely on the man if he's "too horny to keep himself from sticking it in."

Wow. I cannot even begin to fathom that incredibly perverse logic.

Of course women feel the pressure to have sex. It's then their responsibility to stop it before it goes too far. If the woman is "too horny" to reject a man's urge to "stick it in," then that's her fault. If it's all about the woman's body, then she should take better care of it.

Yeah, but then she won't love us enough to show it...

Hardly a good reason and you know it.

Your argument is primitive and goes back to men telling us what we can and can not do with our bodies.

You know that's not the case at all. Not at least with my argument.

I'm saying that the man and the woman have an equal responsibility to ensure pregnancy does not occur. If it does happen, then the woman may choose to have the baby or terminate it. However, if the woman's wishes run contrary to the man's, then he should have the option of choosing to help support the woman or not.

My basic reasoning comes down to that you can't expect to have all the rights and all the choices and then expect someone else to pay for you. It's all very fair, especially since BOTH partners made the choice to have sex.

Me want sandwich. I go tell wo-man down in cafeteria to make me one.

Now you're being juvenile. Your comment has nothing to do with abortion or children.

The man doesn't have to support her, and I agree if he doesn't agree with the decision he shouldn't have to pay for it.

Haha 'paying for an abortion' you're in Canada now DPX, they give that stuff out for free at the Canadian tire. Kidding. Lighten up everyone.

What I was saying is that I don't think a man should have the right to make an unwilling woman carry a baby to term and deliver it.

ETA: Ohh wait... you're talking about child support... that's a completely different argument. BBL.

Edited February 9, 2009 by Sprailenes

[DeadPoolX 9]

The support comes from duties owed to the *child*. Not the woman. The woman, once the kid is born, is in exactly the same position as the father. Support the child, provide for the child's support, or (jointly) terminate parental rights. Support for the child starts at birth (not before.)

Being able to terminate child support based on the idea that the woman didn't have an abortion is a conceptually confused claim. (Not to mention, likely quite bad practically.)

If the father gets the same parental rights as the mother, then there's some logic to your idea. Unfortunately, the man rarely gets any parental rights or even gets to see the child he's paying to help support.

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

It doesn't matter whose responsibility it is - it happens, and if the woman has crappy self esteem or isn't good at asserting herself arguing responsibility isn't going to help.

Nothing "just happens." People make choices. Sometimes they make the right ones and other times they make the wrong ones. Men are hardly the sole decision makers when it comes to sex.

Okay... so let me get this straight: The responsibility doesn't matter so long as the woman has either "low self-esteem" or "isn't good at arguing her point." However, the responsibility is solely on the man if he's "too horny to keep himself from sticking it in."

Wow. I cannot even begin to fathom that incredibly perverse logic.

What I love about your posts is that you start out by stating what's obvious to everybody and then go off into increasingly bizarre tangents with the aid of mundane relativisms (see bolded) or circular logic, quite apart from what was obviously intended.

I'm simply saying that arguing about "responsibility" is irrelevant when the outcome is already decided. In other words trotting out the equivalent of "I told you so" as such amounts to useless advice.

[DeadPoolX 9]

It doesn't matter whose responsibility it is - it happens, and if the woman has crappy self esteem or isn't good at asserting herself arguing responsibility isn't going to help.

Nothing "just happens." People make choices. Sometimes they make the right ones and other times they make the wrong ones. Men are hardly the sole decision makers when it comes to sex.

Okay... so let me get this straight: The responsibility doesn't matter so long as the woman has either "low self-esteem" or "isn't good at arguing her point." However, the responsibility is solely on the man if he's "too horny to keep himself from sticking it in."

Wow. I cannot even begin to fathom that incredibly perverse logic.

What I love about your posts is that you start out by stating what's obvious to everybody and then go off into increasingly bizarre tangents with the aid of mundane relativisms (see bolded) or circular logic, quite apart from what was obviously intended.

I'm simply saying that arguing about "responsibility" is irrelevant when the outcome is already decided. In other words trotting out the equivalent of "I told you so" as such amounts to useless advice.

Everything in life is relativistic. There are no "hard and fast" rules since every situation is different. Anyone who says otherwise is living in a fantasy world.

No, arguing about responsibility is not irrelevant. Many here -- including yourself -- point to the man and shout, "It's his responsibility! He should've kept his horny urges to himself!" But if we place any responsibility on the woman, suddenly the issue of responsibility no longer matters.

That's a very one-sided argument. I'm arguing for equality, something women have supposedly been working towards for years. I suppose equality is only beneficial so long as it helps the woman.

Edited February 9, 2009 by DeadPoolX

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

It doesn't matter whose responsibility it is - it happens, and if the woman has crappy self esteem or isn't good at asserting herself arguing responsibility isn't going to help.

Nothing "just happens." People make choices. Sometimes they make the right ones and other times they make the wrong ones. Men are hardly the sole decision makers when it comes to sex.

Okay... so let me get this straight: The responsibility doesn't matter so long as the woman has either "low self-esteem" or "isn't good at arguing her point." However, the responsibility is solely on the man if he's "too horny to keep himself from sticking it in."

Wow. I cannot even begin to fathom that incredibly perverse logic.

What I love about your posts is that you start out by stating what's obvious to everybody and then go off into increasingly bizarre tangents with the aid of mundane relativisms (see bolded) or circular logic, quite apart from what was obviously intended.

I'm simply saying that arguing about "responsibility" is irrelevant when the outcome is already decided. In other words trotting out the equivalent of "I told you so" as such amounts to useless advice.

Everything in life is relativistic. There are no "hard and fast" rules since every situation is different. Anyone who says otherwise is living in a fantasy world.

No, arguing about responsibility is not irrelevant. Many here -- including yourself -- point to the man and shout, "It's his responsibility! He should've kept his horny urges to himself!" But if we place any responsibility on the woman, suddenly the issue of responsibility no longer matters.

That's a very one-sided argument. I'm arguing for equality, something women have supposedly been working towards for years.

Many people take things as a given - that doesn't mean the obvious needs to be stated as if its some sort of massive, profound revelation. It isn't - It's a given.

And yes - arguing responsiblity is irrelevant if we're talking about pregnancy because all it comes down to is a trite after the fact "I told you so", or "you should have thought about that before".

There's plenty of sex education available (a good or bad thing depending on your ideological bent), but to a large extent we have to accept that things like this are bound to happen - and pointing fingers is just useless.