Got denied on my interview b'coz of not having my decision yet at the court from my previous marriage

[Sinergy 3]

No getting emotional here. She already stated that they filed the K1 knowing the annulment was not final..and hoped it would be before the interview. Therefore...they could not have put it on the application as there was no annulment date...and if they did...they made up a date...either is still fraud...your not getting the point here...SHE ALREADY ADMITTED THEY FILED THE K1 KNOWING THEY WERE NOT LEGAL TO MARRY...and it clearly states to file the K1 you HAVE to be legal to marry...not legal to marry sometime in the middle of the process...but BEFORE you file the petition...and again..it doesnt matter what was put there...there was no annulment date before they filed, so if a date was put, it was a false date, therefore fraud..and if left blank, it was fraud...as they did not indicate a past marriage when there was one...actually it was still a current marriage...still fraud as she or he was not legal to marry therefore not elegible to file the petition in the first place. The denial was correctly given...and yes giving false information on a government document with the K1 can result in a lifetime ban...and YES they will be informed that if they are given the ban...its common sense that they would be given that information.

NO ONE on this thread needs to know exactly what they put on the application...the fact that she has already admitted that they filed the petition before being legal to marry is knowing enough that whatever they wrote on the application or left it blank was fraud.

Stop.making.sense !

I know...i think its confusing ppl

The rules/regs are very clear. The applicant committed fraud and the Visa is denied.

I've not read all the earlier posts ... did the USC willfully hide the truth or did the foreign bride hide the truth from the USC when the documents were filed?

Well...not sure if the USC knew and lied on the petition....however the foreign bride lied on the G-325..all 4 of them

[natty bumppo 297]

No getting emotional here. She already stated that they filed the K1 knowing the annulment was not final..and hoped it would be before the interview. Therefore...they could not have put it on the application as there was no annulment date...and if they did...they made up a date...either is still fraud...your not getting the point here...SHE ALREADY ADMITTED THEY FILED THE K1 KNOWING THEY WERE NOT LEGAL TO MARRY...and it clearly states to file the K1 you HAVE to be legal to marry...not legal to marry sometime in the middle of the process...but BEFORE you file the petition...and again..it doesnt matter what was put there...there was no annulment date before they filed, so if a date was put, it was a false date, therefore fraud..and if left blank, it was fraud...as they did not indicate a past marriage when there was one...actually it was still a current marriage...still fraud as she or he was not legal to marry therefore not elegible to file the petition in the first place. The denial was correctly given...and yes giving false information on a government document with the K1 can result in a lifetime ban...and YES they will be informed that if they are given the ban...its common sense that they would be given that information.

NO ONE on this thread needs to know exactly what they put on the application...the fact that she has already admitted that they filed the petition before being legal to marry is knowing enough that whatever they wrote on the application or left it blank was fraud.

Stop.making.sense !

I know...i think its confusing ppl

The rules/regs are very clear. The applicant committed fraud and the Visa is denied.

I've not read all the earlier posts ... did the USC willfully hide the truth or did the foreign bride hide the truth from the USC when the documents were filed?

Well...not sure if the USC knew and lied on the petition....however the foreign bride lied on the G-325..all 4 of them

Must be nice to believel the gubbermint doesn't care if you lie on forms. Well as Gomer Pyle once said ... "Surprise, Surprise, Surprise"

[Sinergy 3]

I have put myself in her mind and possible way of thinking and the conclusion i can see happening is that yes the Annulment wasn't legally concluded per records. but in her mind i am getting the impression that she believed since the case was finished just not documented that she was indeed single. There is a difference between this line of thinking and knowingly committing an act of deception so as my last post stated I dont have the documents in front of me to pass judgment and my rational way of thinking may not have been hers. I dont know anyone that at first filing a petition or application is an expert like some here seem to think they are. We are human and capable of mistakes and impulsive acts.

I read the instructions...and regardless...i would know im not single if my FIRST MARRIAGE WAS STILL VALID and had not ended. And i really have a hard time believing she actually thought she was free to marry someone else just bc she was not living with her current husband and filed the annulment. But then again...ppl surprise me everyday.

No getting emotional here. She already stated that they filed the K1 knowing the annulment was not final..and hoped it would be before the interview. Therefore...they could not have put it on the application as there was no annulment date...and if they did...they made up a date...either is still fraud...your not getting the point here...SHE ALREADY ADMITTED THEY FILED THE K1 KNOWING THEY WERE NOT LEGAL TO MARRY...and it clearly states to file the K1 you HAVE to be legal to marry...not legal to marry sometime in the middle of the process...but BEFORE you file the petition...and again..it doesnt matter what was put there...there was no annulment date before they filed, so if a date was put, it was a false date, therefore fraud..and if left blank, it was fraud...as they did not indicate a past marriage when there was one...actually it was still a current marriage...still fraud as she or he was not legal to marry therefore not elegible to file the petition in the first place. The denial was correctly given...and yes giving false information on a government document with the K1 can result in a lifetime ban...and YES they will be informed that if they are given the ban...its common sense that they would be given that information.

NO ONE on this thread needs to know exactly what they put on the application...the fact that she has already admitted that they filed the petition before being legal to marry is knowing enough that whatever they wrote on the application or left it blank was fraud.

Stop.making.sense !

I know...i think its confusing ppl

The rules/regs are very clear. The applicant committed fraud and the Visa is denied.

I've not read all the earlier posts ... did the USC willfully hide the truth or did the foreign bride hide the truth from the USC when the documents were filed?

Well...not sure if the USC knew and lied on the petition....however the foreign bride lied on the G-325..all 4 of them

Must be nice to believel the gubbermint doesn't care if you lie on forms. Well as Gomer Pyle once said ... "Surprise, Surprise, Surprise"

[scandal 951]

Sinergy says: She already stated that they filed the K1 knowing the annulment was not final.

Sinergy, I defy you to show us explicitly where she says that. Sure, it's very logical to conclude from what she has told us that this was her state of mind. .......and so on snipped.

Familiarity with the forms and process is enough to know they willfully misrepresented the facts. If you want to prove it to yourself, put yourself in the scenario. You're the US Citizen, you know your fiance is going through an annulment proceeding, so you know she's married. You sit down to fill out the I-129F. Actually start filling it out. Get to section six on the beneficiary side. How do you answer the marital status? Go to section 10. How do you answer? If you tell the truth, the petition cannot possiblly be approved, so you must lie in section 6 and 10 to get an approved petition because you know your fiance is married.

Now put yourself in the foreign fiance's shoes and go through the G325a knowing you have a husband and see if you can fill out the G325a in a way that it can be approved without lying. Now sit down and write and sign a letter stating you are free to marry..... Then fast forward to the visa applications, DS 156/157/230. Try filling those out knowing you're married applying for a fiance visa. Can you do it without lying?

That's why we know they shot themselves in the heart over and over again before the interview becaue if they didn't, there never would have been an interview.

OK, let me try thins again, I may not have been explicit enough in my earlier example.

For the record, I personally do tend to agree that the evidence looks pretty bad for them. The most natural, obvious, logical conclusion is that they knowingly misrepresented. That's quite likely (probably?) what happened. Would that actually meet the burden of proof for perjury? Maybe, but I doubt it. Would probably depend on how good the defense attorney is to create reasonable doubt.

And I think that's really what I'm getting at here. I can imagine a scenario, a bit far-fetched I agree, in which your questions above pushbrk could be answered "yes, I can fill out all the paperwork without actually lying". Illustrating this scenario can serve two possibly useful purposes - (a) if it's actually a valid scenario, if this or something like it is what really happened, then it should let OP off the hook and eligible to reapply for benefits (b ) if it isn't what actually happened, it still makes for a decent defense theory by a sharp lawyer to create reasonable doubt, should it ever come to that in a courtroom setting.

Ok, so here is the scenario I tried to illustrate, a few posts back. I'll flesh it out as a complete hypothetical storyline of this couple.

Couple meets, falls in love. She tells him one fateful day "Honey, you should know, I used to be married. He was a bum. We've been separated many years".

He says "No problems my dear, love will conquer all".

Time goes by, they decide they want to marry and move to the USA.

They inquire, innocently, how one goes about doing that. They get the same smorgasbord of acronyms we were all confronted with : K-1,K-3, CR-1, IR-1, diversity lotteries, work permits, yadda yadda. They get depressed, but persevere and decide to go for a fiance K-1 filing. They have never heard of VJ or any other support network, and are doing this on their own, innocently, naively. They (more likely, he) read the instructions for I-129F petition, the first step. They amass proof of relationship, photos, and start filling out forms. There are questions about marital status. He asks her: "Honey! You're still married! What will we do?" She says: Oh, I need to get it annulled. They inquire in her village how to do that. The local priest (or county clerk, or whoever does those things) gives them some forms. She fills them out, pays the fee, gets some witnesses to swear the affidavits that she hasn't lived with her ex-husband for umpteen years. She gets some piece of paper, and thinks she's done. She doesn't read that paper carefully. In actual fact, the paper says that she has initiated an annulment proceeding, and it will conclude at some future date. But she honestly believes ON THAT DATE that she is annulled. Ok, so she is excited and tells her fiance "Honey! Let's get on with it!". He (the USC) of course has no reason to doubt her word. He's probably back in the US, and if she says she's got it, well that's it then. Ok, so now you can see how they fill out I-129F and sign their declarations of intent to marry, and as they sign the forms they honestly believe that what they are writing is true. The date they use for her divorce is the date she got back her interim form from the annulment procedure. It's merely an honest mistake- she has confused an interim annulment form for the actual final edict.

Time passes, they are approved at VSC/CSC, then at NVC, it comes to Philippines. She now needs to apply for K-1. Again she attests that she is free to marry, and in her mind she truly believes that to be the case. She sends in Packet 3/4, awaits an interview date. While waiting for interview, her telephone rings. It's the local priest/clerk/whatever. "Dear Ms. So-and-so. We are processing your annulment. Please come to pick it up next mm-dd." She goes..... "WHAT?????" "WHAT DO YOU MEAN???" "I THOUGHT I WAS ANNULLED??" And then the realization sets in, that she's not.

In this scenario it is PATENTLY OBVIOUS why Manila embassy denies her petition. Regardless of their state of mind, clearly the application is invalid because she was not free to marry. There can be no doubt about that, I entirely agree.

But the next question is.... must it necessarily be fraud.... I'm not convinced. If the scenario above happened, or something like it happened, then no perjury or willful attempt to circumvent the law took place. In which case it should be straightforward to abandon this petition, and begin a new one.

I think that's all I have to say here. I believe I've spelled it out as plainly as I can. It may have been fraud. It probably even was fraud. But we don't know. And proving fraud (perjury in this case) will take a heck of a lot more than us carping on a message board saying "yes it is" "no it's not".

[MMW 2]

That has been the point of my posts. No one here has read or seen any documents filed we are reacting on what the instructions say literally and not taking into account the excitement level present in this girl's mind so again I cant in good conscious condemn her for a fraud when I dont have adequate info for a conviction. This site is suppose to be a supportive site for info and guidance for our individual visa journeys, I have to admit sometimes i am ashamed of how heartless we can be at times.

[faryan 4]

Personally for me, I think we wish for all lovers who are separated to be able to be reunited ASAP. Going through this prolonged process is not something easy for all of us, and of course we feel saddened for those who had to undergo extra wait for one reason or another. When someone being denied for this kind of reason such as the OP's, for most of us, it is a no-brainer. of course she would be denied. according to the requirements, she should be denied. (and now on my judgement portion: those who wasnt denied due to this IMO would be one of those having fraudulent petition but one that falls into the cracks of the system, or the CO simply thinking that since they have a decree and all the supporting papers/evidence during the interview to be a much smaller matter than not a bona fide rship).

Now, let's put aside 'intent' or whatever the OP and bf were thinking when they fill out the petition with all the requirements/instructions coming with it. The OP's previous marriage is still there when they decide to file, and she didnt have the necessary documents that can back up saying that she is ok legally to marry/enter into an engagement/to file for fiancee visa. Do we feel sorry for her? Yes. Do we think this could have been avoided? Yes. Do we have any advise for her? Yes. We dont have to give excuse or explain away why, how, etc this situation boil into this for the OP and thinking that people are trying to judge her or prosecute her coz it wont help her with her case at all. It happened already. What we can do which is constructive is to call it as how it could and would have been perceived by the government. And what might happen if she decide to refile. If she is lucky, she could also be one of those cases which "falls into the cracks" and overlooked by the government. But if she isnt that lucky, she should know what might happen. And how it is way more prudent to not attempt it.

IMO.

[Sinergy 3]

The fact and again ill state it...that she knowingly filled out the G-325 to be petitioned for a fiance visa while still being married...lied on those forms...not just one but all 4...whether she kept it blank or filled it in..bc the bottom line is...she was still married when she filled out those forms...she was still married when they mailed off the petition...she was still married when approved (and bc approved its obvious she lied on the g325 which YES IS FRAUD) and was still married come interview time....and in fact is STILL MARRIED to her current husband. YES it is fraud on her part. yes the denial was rightfully given....NO no good defence lawyer could win this. She was married thru the whole process to someone else...knew this...and still went to the interview...married to SOMEONE ELSE...but hoping and praying to God almighty her annulment would be final before her interview thinking she would be in the clear. too bad on her part it wasnt....the fact that SHE lied on the G325 forms...she commited fraud on a government immigration document. there is no way around it...no clever way through it...and the reality is just that.

MMW i know what your trying to say...bless you for trying...however when the fiance is still married to someone else and fills out the G325 forms...and obviously lied on them, while praying the annulment is final before the interview...still married to someone else thru the whole k1 process...is indeed fraud...no matter how anyone wants to see it...its visa fraud. If there is any advice for the OP its simple...NEVER NEVER LIE ON GOVERNMENT DOCUMENTS!!!!! it can lead to nothing but trouble.

im going to bed...ive said what i have said...theres no sugar coating it...and no other way to explain it.

Edited February 7, 2009 by Sinergy

[natty bumppo 297]

Sinergy says: She already stated that they filed the K1 knowing the annulment was not final.

Sinergy, I defy you to show us explicitly where she says that. Sure, it's very logical to conclude from what she has told us that this was her state of mind. .......and so on snipped.

Familiarity with the forms and process is enough to know they willfully misrepresented the facts. If you want to prove it to yourself, put yourself in the scenario. You're the US Citizen, you know your fiance is going through an annulment proceeding, so you know she's married. You sit down to fill out the I-129F. Actually start filling it out. Get to section six on the beneficiary side. How do you answer the marital status? Go to section 10. How do you answer? If you tell the truth, the petition cannot possiblly be approved, so you must lie in section 6 and 10 to get an approved petition because you know your fiance is married.

Now put yourself in the foreign fiance's shoes and go through the G325a knowing you have a husband and see if you can fill out the G325a in a way that it can be approved without lying. Now sit down and write and sign a letter stating you are free to marry..... Then fast forward to the visa applications, DS 156/157/230. Try filling those out knowing you're married applying for a fiance visa. Can you do it without lying?

That's why we know they shot themselves in the heart over and over again before the interview becaue if they didn't, there never would have been an interview.

OK, let me try thins again, I may not have been explicit enough in my earlier example.

For the record, I personally do tend to agree that the evidence looks pretty bad for them. The most natural, obvious, logical conclusion is that they knowingly misrepresented. That's quite likely (probably?) what happened. Would that actually meet the burden of proof for perjury? Maybe, but I doubt it. Would probably depend on how good the defense attorney is to create reasonable doubt.

Let me make this very simple. Married ... YES or NO. No middle ground.

SHE answered NO. You're considering that statement of NO when she is married doesn't meet the requirements of a lie ... perjury? ?If you really believe a bold faced lie is not perjury I have a suggestion ... when you get thrown in the slammer ... don't drop the soap.

[MMW 2]

Well Sin i am glad that you have all the facts concerning the Annulment process she was involved in. I know from experience of a close friend of mine that the case for Annulment was completed and ruled on by the Judge and the Annulment granted and still it took Many months for the Supporting documents to be released. So please don't be so concerned about being right and focus more on the issue here. Support for a fellow VJ member looking for advice and guidance. The fact could have been just what i have stated that the documents not received therefore no one necessarily lied on a document. NOT ENOUGH INFO!!!!!

[scandal 951]

Another case has been mentioned here, where the couple was successful even though the annullment wasn't completed until long after the petition was filed. That case to had many material misrepresentations and they couple is just as guilty of visa fraud for same reasons. The difference is they got away with it by delaying the interview until a CENOMAR was in hand. A CENOMAR states the fiancee is free to marry, effectively covering each and every previous lie from being discovered. They will need to look over their shoulders for the rest of their lives.

On this one, I entirely agree with you. That poster really amazed me - telling us bold-faced that they intentionally petitioned and filed, KNOWING that the annulment would be done later, before interview stage. That is clearly, unambiguously, fraudulent. They got away with it, but offering that kind of advice to others is reckless. I thought VJ as a community comes down harshly on any member saying "I broke the rules and got away with it! Here's how I did it! You should too!". For shame, for shame.

[Sinergy 3]

Well Sin i am glad that you have all the facts concerning the Annulment process she was involved in. I know from experience of a close friend of mine that the case for Annulment was completed and ruled on by the Judge and the Annulment granted and still it took Many months for the Supporting documents to be released. So please don't be so concerned about being right and focus more on the issue here. Support for a fellow VJ member looking for advice and guidance. The fact could have been just what i have stated that the documents not received therefore no one necessarily lied on a document. NOT ENOUGH INFO!!!!!

2 cases not the same, your friend already had the annulment, whether the papers were released or not, there was a final annulment, this one did not. SHE IS STILL MARRIED TO THE OTHER PERSON....what part of those words do you not understand??? the annulment is not even final...STILL and shes already been to her interview. geez...read the words...then reply.

also....i have NO support for any VJ member that commits visa fraud...especially someone who files a petition for fiance visa WHILE MARRIED TO SOMEONE ELSE. geez....makes me wonder if you even read the requirments and understood them

Another case has been mentioned here, where the couple was successful even though the annullment wasn't completed until long after the petition was filed. That case to had many material misrepresentations and they couple is just as guilty of visa fraud for same reasons. The difference is they got away with it by delaying the interview until a CENOMAR was in hand. A CENOMAR states the fiancee is free to marry, effectively covering each and every previous lie from being discovered. They will need to look over their shoulders for the rest of their lives.

On this one, I entirely agree with you. That poster really amazed me - telling us bold-faced that they intentionally petitioned and filed, KNOWING that the annulment would be done later, before interview stage. That is clearly, unambiguously, fraudulent. They got away with it, but offering that kind of advice to others is reckless. I thought VJ as a community comes down harshly on any member saying "I broke the rules and got away with it! Here's how I did it! You should too!". For shame, for shame.

agreed...and it really sickens me when other VJ members praise ppl who "slipped thru the system" like that.

Edited February 7, 2009 by Sinergy

[natty bumppo 297]

Another case has been mentioned here, where the couple was successful even though the annullment wasn't completed until long after the petition was filed. That case to had many material misrepresentations and they couple is just as guilty of visa fraud for same reasons. The difference is they got away with it by delaying the interview until a CENOMAR was in hand. A CENOMAR states the fiancee is free to marry, effectively covering each and every previous lie from being discovered. They will need to look over their shoulders for the rest of their lives.

On this one, I entirely agree with you. That poster really amazed me - telling us bold-faced that they intentionally petitioned and filed, KNOWING that the annulment would be done later, before interview stage. That is clearly, unambiguously, fraudulent. They got away with it, but offering that kind of advice to others is reckless. I thought VJ as a community comes down harshly on any member saying "I broke the rules and got away with it! Here's how I did it! You should too!". Hope they get a ban for life ... ban for life ... cause they've just made it harder for those of us who can read and follow the rules. For shame, for shame.

fixored

[Sinergy 3]

here...lets make this visible

http://www.visajourney.com/examples/INS-Form-G-325A.pdf

this is the G-325....which you have to fill 4 of these out for yourself.

The question:

Former Husbands or Wives (If none, so state)Family Name (For wife, give maiden name)

First Name

Date and Place of Termination of Marriage

Date and Place of Marriage

Birth Date(mm/dd/yyyy)

[if there is none put none]

If the OP put NONE.......LIE....FRAUD

If the OP put her current husband and a termination date...it wouldve been a false date as there was no termination date at the time of filling out the form...guess what....LIE.....FRAUD

[natty bumppo 297]

here...lets make this visible

http://www.visajourney.com/examples/INS-Form-G-325A.pdf

this is the G-325....which you have to fill 4 of these out for yourself.

The question:

Former Husbands or Wives (If none, so state)Family Name (For wife, give maiden name)

First Name

Date and Place of Termination of Marriage

Date and Place of Marriage

Birth Date(mm/dd/yyyy)

[if there is none put none]

If the OP put NONE.......LIE....FRAUD

If the OP put her current husband and a termination date...it wouldve been a false date as there was no termination date at the time of filling out the form...guess what....LIE.....FRAUD

but ... but ... she is upset that she lied ... and got caught

[faryan 4]

Well Sin i am glad that you have all the facts concerning the Annulment process she was involved in. I know from experience of a close friend of mine that the case for Annulment was completed and ruled on by the Judge and the Annulment granted and still it took Many months for the Supporting documents to be released. So please don't be so concerned about being right and focus more on the issue here. Support for a fellow VJ member looking for advice and guidance. The fact could have been just what i have stated that the documents not received therefore no one necessarily lied on a document. NOT ENOUGH INFO!!!!!

MMW, i understand what you are saying, but im sure you for one will advise your close friend to not file for her K1 visa until after she got the Annulment papers in hand, no matter how long the papers take. i wonder if you can get the CENOMAR without all the annulment papers in hand?

Im not sure if you and i are reading things the same here. IMO, Sinergy and Pushbrk and us are actually focusing on the very issue. Not on what are the circumstances/speculation surrounding why she didnt get her Annulment papers in hand yet. We just focus on that she shouldnt have filed when not having all papers in order when filing a petition to the US government. And the fact that the petition was approved and she got an interview, well that raised huge question marks to us definitely. For us when we file our papers, it is scary as we have to sign everything, a statement to the government and thus we know its something serious. In fact, when you decide to spend the rest of your life with someone it is something serious. Most serious thing I have ever undertake in my life, for sure.

It is obvious that we have differing opinions on what support, advice and guidance meant.