Got denied on my interview b'coz of not having my decision yet at the court from my previous marriage

[daboyz 36]

First of all sorry for your loss. I honestly mean that.

The fact remains, if you break the law, not being aware of said law is not an excuse to break it. If that was the case, people would use that excuse for anything.

In your case of the driver's license. YOU are talking apples and oranges here. You obviously didn't break a law since your license was valid.

Ignorance of laws is never an excuse. Bottom line. Ask any lawyer.

You are absolutely correct - ignorance of the law is never an excuse. I agree entirely.

What I think is still not being understood is what IS the law, and what entails breaking the law. For some statutes, there is no need to show intent. the standard is easier to prove because physical evidence can suffice. For other statues, there is an element of intent, and then the bar is higher.

Take Your example of "I killed my neighbor. I didn't know". Depending upon what you "didn't know" means you're guilty of different possible crimes - 1st or 2nd degree manslaughter, or capital murder. The reason the law includes these different levels of severity is because the presence (or absence) of intent is seen by society as making a difference in the penalty. Sure, you're definitely guilty of something. You shouldn't be able to walk away with no consequences. But proving intent and state of mind are VITAL for those statutes that need to show willful action.

Returning to immigration visas, as I've been trying to point out (apparently unsuccessfully) the statutory definition of perjury does also require an element of intent, just as capital murder does. That does leave room for honest mistakes. It allows for cases where facts are misstated (e.g. marital status) but if done so without intent to deceive, no crime has been committed.

I again return to sus' case as a real world example to show that this is not so far fetched. I don't know if it applies to the OP.

You're obviously a lawyer. When I decide to off my neighbor can you represent me?

[scandal 951]

First, thank you for your condolences - UScandual - I have to try to keep in my mind that everything happens for a reason - my son was an angel who was brought into my life for a short time to show me some things - As hard as it is, I would never change the time that I had with him, and have to cherish that.

As for Daboyz - My license was suspended - I did not know it - By all rights, I could have been in jail - I was driving on a suspended license, I just didn't know it - I was ignorant of it.

My point (which seems to have been missed) in posting the stories that I have was to give concrete examples of how not everything is black and white - it would be nice if they were, and if the laws were applied uniformly - but the reality of life is that they aren't and never are - Things happen, mistakes happen - nothing in life is exactly as it should be - And people in this thread have served as judge, jury, and executioner without having all the facts.

I never said the OP was right / wrong / whatever - But the amount of armchair judges in this thread who are so solidly certain that they are the authority on what will / won't / did happen, without having all the facts, is astonishing - Didn't anyone ever hear the old saying about don't ASSUME....

I agree with you. It just seems kinda strange to me that someone doesn't know their marital status for whatever reason.

Oops I got married in vegas and forgot about it. I don't know, the OP's post seems odd.

I agree as well with all of this - sus and daboyz.

As to "married in vegas and forgot about it"... isn't that EXACTLY what happened to Britney Spears a few years ago???

[Peikko 1,575]

Way to go off subject...

I am wondering if this thread needs moderation intervention as this is less than useful to the OP and her original question.

Unless someone has definitive proof that that IN ALL CASES if a non USC stipulates on a USICS document that they are divorced, when in fact they are still waiting for the divorce to be finalized, the non USC will always be banned for life from any Visa process all judgments on how USICS will evaluate this situation are mere speculation.

The OP never intended to pass herself off as single and marry illegally. She had no intention of providing false documents or presenting herself as never having married. We know that because she did not turn up to her interview with forged documents nor did she attempt to lie at interview. So she ###### up on the application and obviously she will have to accept the consequences of that action - whatever those consequences really are.

The OP came onto this message board with a genuine question about what her next move should be and all she gets is accusations of fraudulent conduct and gleeful pronouncements as to her sorry #### not being welcome in the US.

Yes, move onto the next case of people you can judge as being 'worthy' of your advice. Sheesh, VJ.

[daboyz 36]

Way to go off subject...

I am wondering if this thread needs moderation intervention as this is less than useful to the OP and her original question.

Unless someone has definitive proof that that IN ALL CASES if a non USC stipulates on a USICS document that they are divorced, when in fact they are still waiting for the divorce to be finalized, the non USC will always be banned for life from any Visa process all judgments on how USICS will evaluate this situation are mere speculation.

The OP never intended to pass herself off as single and marry illegally. She had no intention of providing false documents or presenting herself as never having married. We know that because she did not turn up to her interview with forged documents nor did she attempt to lie at interview. So she ###### up on the application and obviously she will have to accept the consequences of that action - whatever those consequences really are.

The OP came onto this message board with a genuine question about what her next move should be and all she gets is accusations of fraudulent conduct and gleeful pronouncements as to her sorry #### not being welcome in the US.

Yes, move onto the next case of people you can judge as being 'worthy' of your advice. Sheesh, VJ.

I agree. The thread went off the tracks. But I think it comes down to her marital status. She SEEMS like she is married and filed K-1. So until that get's figured out, not much to say.

[pushbrk 12,982]

That said, you long ago post was sound advice but their chances of success with a second I-129F are none and no way, IMO.

See? Those 3 letters 'IMO' really do make it all better. It just takes the judgmental edge off the phrase they complete. It doesn't negate the thrust of your statement, just makes it clear that it's an opinion, not a fact. Makes all the difference in the world. IMO, of course

Push, more seriously, I'd really be interested in your view of the one actual tangible case study that was shared on this thread, other than OP's. It was posted by sus and I don't recall seeing your reaction to it, or anyone else (other than mine). I think it's very germane to the case at hand. I'll quote the relevant bit here:

Let me give you another scenario - My own - because had I not know what I know about the process and the law, I would be in this exact position. When my fiance and I started talking about filing and gathering the documentation, I told him we needed a copy of his divorce decree. He gave me what he had - he was divorced in 2004 (he thought) - I work in the legal field (not immigration, typically), and I looked at it and realized it wasn't a final dissolution - it was the original process. He thought he was divorced - his ex had served him, he thought it was done - When we tried to get a copy of the decree, it turned out that she never did it - she just served him and dropped it. So he had to hire an attorney and file for the divorce, and we are still (somewhat impatiently) waiting for the decree. If I didn't understand the legal documents, I could easily have filed, put the date of the petition on there, and gone forward with this process, thinking yes, he was divorced. In fact, he wasn't and I would have been in this same situation - Without knowingly committing fraud.

Suppose for a moment, hypothetically, that sus and her fiance had not realized the divorce was not final prior to filing I-129F petition. If they had gone through with it, putting in "divorced" for status of beneficiary, and supplying a date, it probably would have passed through USCIS and NVC processing and arrived at consulate. Most likely, it would be detected at that point because consulate would demand documentation of divorce, and at that point the application would be denied.

However my question to you is - do you think they would also be banned from refiling in such a (hypothetical) case? There was no intent to defraud here. In my view the appropriate penalty would be denial of the first filing, but no ban on making subsequent petitions. Curious to know if you agree/disagree.

When I state something as opinion it's either clearly opinion or so indicated.

In the case you mention, USCIS would have denied the case (without prejudice) based on the lack of documentation of a divorce being final. This is common enough to be treated as a simple misunderstanding. This is critical to you and others understanding why I'm so certain the OP is guilty of a material misrepresentation. At every turn, when asked about a previous marriage, they denied one ever existed. Had they done otherwise, the petition would never have been approved BECAUSE they couldn't possibly have provided any documentation of it having ended. The OP is a Filipina, married in the PI. As such, the USCIS adjudicator would have known exactly what kind of annulment documentation was required and denied the case for lack of it. The OP and her petitioner falsely denied the existence of her previous marriage. While it's possible the OP deceived the petitioner, it's not possible she deceived herself. Her misrepresentation is not in doubt. By the same token, there is no doubt "sus's" petition would have been denied had they declared a divorce end date the husband believed correct and submitted papers he believed would document the claim. Fortunately, the error was caught ahead of time.

[pushbrk 12,982]

That said, you long ago post was sound advice but their chances of success with a second I-129F are none and no way, IMO.

See? Those 3 letters 'IMO' really do make it all better. It just takes the judgmental edge off the phrase they complete. It doesn't negate the thrust of your statement, just makes it clear that it's an opinion, not a fact. Makes all the difference in the world. IMO, of course

Push, more seriously, I'd really be interested in your view of the one actual tangible case study that was shared on this thread, other than OP's. It was posted by sus and I don't recall seeing your reaction to it, or anyone else (other than mine). I think it's very germane to the case at hand. I'll quote the relevant bit here:

Let me give you another scenario - My own - because had I not know what I know about the process and the law, I would be in this exact position. When my fiance and I started talking about filing and gathering the documentation, I told him we needed a copy of his divorce decree. He gave me what he had - he was divorced in 2004 (he thought) - I work in the legal field (not immigration, typically), and I looked at it and realized it wasn't a final dissolution - it was the original process. He thought he was divorced - his ex had served him, he thought it was done - When we tried to get a copy of the decree, it turned out that she never did it - she just served him and dropped it. So he had to hire an attorney and file for the divorce, and we are still (somewhat impatiently) waiting for the decree. If I didn't understand the legal documents, I could easily have filed, put the date of the petition on there, and gone forward with this process, thinking yes, he was divorced. In fact, he wasn't and I would have been in this same situation - Without knowingly committing fraud.

Suppose for a moment, hypothetically, that sus and her fiance had not realized the divorce was not final prior to filing I-129F petition. If they had gone through with it, putting in "divorced" for status of beneficiary, and supplying a date, it probably would have passed through USCIS and NVC processing and arrived at consulate. Most likely, it would be detected at that point because consulate would demand documentation of divorce, and at that point the application would be denied.

However my question to you is - do you think they would also be banned from refiling in such a (hypothetical) case? There was no intent to defraud here. In my view the appropriate penalty would be denial of the first filing, but no ban on making subsequent petitions. Curious to know if you agree/disagree.

But how do you not realize something like that? normally you have to go to court...and if you dont...you always have papers stating it was final. So not realizing a divorse/annulment is not final...does not even make sense.

The respondent need not go to court for a divorce in most states. One only need be ignorant of divorce procedures to think the papers they were served were not sufficient.

[Ban Hammer 13,415]

cliff notes for this thread ------>

[luckytxn 2,264]

I decree the OP is guilty of whatever I think they are guilty of and that's that.............Hang em.

[GloriaLuvsMoto2 0]

I don't think it takes much examination to see that most of the last 12 pages consist of bickering over whether we know what we know and/or whether and how we should communicate what we know or think we know. When we use our understanding of the forms and process, we need not be a fly on the wall to know false information was intentionally and knowingly given to USCIS or the petition would never have been approved and we know that more false information was contained in the visa applications delivered to the Consulate in furtherance of false pictures painted by the petition. We can read the affirmations above signatures on forms and know the potential consequences of these actions preclude remedies like simply filing again. We cannot help this couple obtain a visa fraudulently and we cannot help them avoid the penalties for the offences they've already been caught committing.

What we can do is help them face the realities of what they've done so they can, between them resolve what they will do going forward without wasting time on futile efforts.

Oh no, here we go again. Look, overall I agree with what you're saying, that we should certainly not be abetting fraud or duplicity, and that we cannot undo past actions that are already done, and that we cannot impose our will and judgment for that of USCIS and other bodies (e.g. Manila embassy).

BUT. BUT. This statement drives me a bit nuts:

intentionally and knowingly

You don't know that. I don't know that. You can suspect that, so may I. But nothing you can say, nothing anyone says here other than perhaps the OP, can confirm or deny whether it was "intentionally and knowingly". We've already had a poster recount their own experience in which they NEARLY fell into such a trap, completing the forms believing that because an ex-spouse had served papers that in fact the divorce was finalized, when it was not. How can you POSSIBLY know that something similar did not happen here, to this OP? You DON'T KNOW. I wish people would stop stating as facts things that are conjectures.

Proving my point. Most of the last now 13 of 16 pages have been about bickering about what is and isn't known. All forms ask about previous marriages. The foreign fiancee's English seems sufficient and she mentions "my previous marriage" in the title of the thread, indicating information about a previous marriage was knowingly and intentionally misrepresented. If there was any misunderstanding or confusion involved it relates the consequences, not the actions themselves. Ignorance of consequences may mitigate some of the penalties but not erase the responsibility for the offense.

That said, you long ago post was sound advice but their chances of success with a second I-129F are none and no way, IMO.

Push... this have been a very interesting topic for me... and im just wondering.. what exactly could happen to their petition perce if..

1. If she have mentioned her former marriage to G325 when they filled it before.. and just failed to submit the annulment decree.. Will they be allowed to make appeal? or will it be ok for them to re file a petition?

2. if they failed to declare it either intentional or not. Would this realy mean an automatic ban for her?

What do u think is the best option for them now?

im concerned that why iam asking...thank you

If they got a petition approved, they did so by omitting mention of a previous marriage because if there had been one mentioned, no petition would have been approved without evidence the marriage was terminated by death, divorce or annullment. Whether by ommission or false declaration, this constitutes misrepresentation of a material fact. As already stated, the penalty is a ban on visa approval and entry to the USA. The only ban mentioned for misrepresentation is a permanent one but I'm not a judge, so I allow it's possible for some penalty short of a lifetime ban.

I think their best option is to abandon any attempt to obtain a visa to the USA for the beneficiary and get on with their lives the best they can. I have no idea what that means to the couple, because I don't know enough to know whether building a life together outside the USA is a viable option for them.

You don't simply fail to mention a previous marriage. You fail to answer a question truthfully, meaning your answer is a lie, not a mistake.

That's your OPINION and not a fact as you don't actually work for USICS now do you? My message to the OP, (if the OP ever returns which I would somewhat doubt), get your annulment and re file. Let USICS judge what penalties to impose, not the members of VJ who are normally very well intentioned but sometimes get carried away on technicalities.

Good luck OP.

If working for the USCIS is the standard for knowing anything about the visa process, then VJ might as well be shut down immediately.

The OP has returned to the thread without posting. Um, yes, I know that.

Thanks for that... thats just so sad .. i wish they could find a way to be together and be happy regardless if its not in the US.. sigh!!

Edited February 9, 2009 by GloriaLuvsMoto2

[JSVP08 3]

charles,u never cease to amaze me....err...entertain me ....ops to the OP: hope and pray all goes well ...afterall.

[Sinergy 3]

But how do you not realize something like that? normally you have to go to court...and if you dont...you always have papers stating it was final. So not realizing a divorse/annulment is not final...does not even make sense.

First of all - there is no normally that you have to go to court - if someone sues you (for anything) the logical thing is to appear in court - but not everyone does, nor is it required - In a situation where you are dealing with two foreign countries - More often then not, only one party is going to appear in court - also, not being familiar with the legal process in that country, reading the petition, my fiance thought it was final - he'd been living for 5 years thinking he was divorced - she filed it, sent him the paperwork - he thought it was done - So did I from reading the papers he had - what I did know was that what he had wasn't a formal decree - when we tried to get one from the court is when we found out it wasn't finalized, or filed - they had no record of it -

Plus, if someone is served with divorce papers, doesn't appear, is served by notice in the paper, etc... they aren't always going to have papers stating that it was final.

Another example that I can give you is from my job - we try to repossess a car - the person has moved, left no forwarding address - we publish it in the paper for their last known area of residence - the judge grants the order - They don't read the paper, didn't see the notice - one day they are driving around and some sheriff comes and takes their car. It happens every day.

i bolded the part that you failed to read

and yes...you ALWAYS recieve papers of a finalized annulment/divorse. If you dont go to court, they will mail them to you.

You are another one just arguing for the sake of arguing. You understand the issue...but continue to twist things to be able to argue about it.

Everyone has agreed that the OP knowingly filed with the knowledge of being married still to someone else and that is visa fraud bc she LIED.

theres no more need to argue over "well I SAY this and that..." if your that board...king.com is a good place to visit.

[Ana1988 0]

cliff notes for this thread ------>

Charles,can I ask?how did you get that different kind of smiley with emotions>?lol,coz I can't find it here:)

[Ban Hammer 13,415]

cliff notes for this thread ------>

Charles,can I ask?how did you get that different kind of smiley with emotions>?lol,coz I can't find it here:)

special smileys are available only to organizers and moderators

[Sinergy 3]

cliff notes for this thread ------>

Charles,can I ask?how did you get that different kind of smiley with emotions>?lol,coz I can't find it here:)

special smileys are available only to organizers and moderators

[rebeccajo 14]

Ok, this has been driving me mad. It took me a while googling with the proper phraseology to come up with what I HOPE is some useful information for the OP.

What did they tell you at the consulate?

Did they give you any paperwork? If so what was on it?

http://www.usvisalawyers.co.uk/article7.htm

"Section 214(B)

This section of the INA applies only to nonimmigrant visa applicants and states that every person applying for a nonimmigrant visa, with the exception of H-1, L and V visas, will be presumed to be an immigrant until he establishes to the satisfaction of a consular officer when applying for a visa (and the immigration officer when applying for admission to the US) that he is entitled to nonimmigrant status. The INA squarely places the burden of proof upon the visa applicant. The applicant must convince the interviewing consular officer that his intended activities in the United States are consistent with the nonimmigrant status sought. If this is demonstrated to the consular officer’s satisfaction, the visa will be approved if the applicant is otherwise eligible--that is, if no ground of ineligibility exists, particularly under INA section 212(a), referred to below. An applicant denied a visa under 214(B) may not apply for a waiver of ineligibility."

To the OP - what paperwork did they give you when denying your visa? What did it say?

If the denial was a 214 denial, you DO NOT have a bar to entry at a later time. You simply apply again later on.