Got denied on my interview b'coz of not having my decision yet at the court from my previous marriage

[scandal 951]

That said, you long ago post was sound advice but their chances of success with a second I-129F are none and no way, IMO.

See? Those 3 letters 'IMO' really do make it all better. It just takes the judgmental edge off the phrase they complete. It doesn't negate the thrust of your statement, just makes it clear that it's an opinion, not a fact. Makes all the difference in the world. IMO, of course

Push, more seriously, I'd really be interested in your view of the one actual tangible case study that was shared on this thread, other than OP's. It was posted by sus and I don't recall seeing your reaction to it, or anyone else (other than mine). I think it's very germane to the case at hand. I'll quote the relevant bit here:

Let me give you another scenario - My own - because had I not know what I know about the process and the law, I would be in this exact position. When my fiance and I started talking about filing and gathering the documentation, I told him we needed a copy of his divorce decree. He gave me what he had - he was divorced in 2004 (he thought) - I work in the legal field (not immigration, typically), and I looked at it and realized it wasn't a final dissolution - it was the original process. He thought he was divorced - his ex had served him, he thought it was done - When we tried to get a copy of the decree, it turned out that she never did it - she just served him and dropped it. So he had to hire an attorney and file for the divorce, and we are still (somewhat impatiently) waiting for the decree. If I didn't understand the legal documents, I could easily have filed, put the date of the petition on there, and gone forward with this process, thinking yes, he was divorced. In fact, he wasn't and I would have been in this same situation - Without knowingly committing fraud.

Suppose for a moment, hypothetically, that sus and her fiance had not realized the divorce was not final prior to filing I-129F petition. If they had gone through with it, putting in "divorced" for status of beneficiary, and supplying a date, it probably would have passed through USCIS and NVC processing and arrived at consulate. Most likely, it would be detected at that point because consulate would demand documentation of divorce, and at that point the application would be denied.

However my question to you is - do you think they would also be banned from refiling in such a (hypothetical) case? There was no intent to defraud here. In my view the appropriate penalty would be denial of the first filing, but no ban on making subsequent petitions. Curious to know if you agree/disagree.

But how do you not realize something like that? normally you have to go to court...and if you dont...you always have papers stating it was final. So not realizing a divorse/annulment is not final...does not even make sense.

How do you not realize something like that? Because people are human. And they overlook things. And misunderstand things. And confuse things. And are not perfect creatures as apparently some (you?) demand they must be prior to filing an application.

An honest mistake is not fraud.

And yes, this scenario does "make sense". People make mistakes. I certainly do. President Obama just famously admitted to "screwing up" with Daschle's nomination. Are you saying every visa applicant should be superior to that standard?

Sus' fiance was making an honest mistake: "He thought he was divorced - his ex had served him, he thought it was done" (Sus's words). Thankfully, Sus caught his mistake in time. But what if she hadn't? Does the full force of criminal legal sanctions come crashing down on someone because they made a human error? That's certainly not my understanding of the Criminal code, and also not of the Immigration system.

[desert_fox 32]

the only thing that hsn't been stated in this thread is that Pushbck

Be patient...I'll get it out.

...Pushbak has been virtually correct in all of his posts.

I know that most ppl like to cheer on every dysfunctional cause, including trying to conceal, and perjury...but this guy did it to himself.

[Sinergy 3]

the only thing that hsn't been stated in this thread is that Pushbck

Be patient...I'll get it out.

...Pushbak has been virtually correct in all of his posts.

I know that most ppl like to cheer on every dysfunctional cause, including trying to conceal, and perjury...but this guy did it to himself.

[Sinergy 3]

That said, you long ago post was sound advice but their chances of success with a second I-129F are none and no way, IMO.

See? Those 3 letters 'IMO' really do make it all better. It just takes the judgmental edge off the phrase they complete. It doesn't negate the thrust of your statement, just makes it clear that it's an opinion, not a fact. Makes all the difference in the world. IMO, of course

Push, more seriously, I'd really be interested in your view of the one actual tangible case study that was shared on this thread, other than OP's. It was posted by sus and I don't recall seeing your reaction to it, or anyone else (other than mine). I think it's very germane to the case at hand. I'll quote the relevant bit here:

Let me give you another scenario - My own - because had I not know what I know about the process and the law, I would be in this exact position. When my fiance and I started talking about filing and gathering the documentation, I told him we needed a copy of his divorce decree. He gave me what he had - he was divorced in 2004 (he thought) - I work in the legal field (not immigration, typically), and I looked at it and realized it wasn't a final dissolution - it was the original process. He thought he was divorced - his ex had served him, he thought it was done - When we tried to get a copy of the decree, it turned out that she never did it - she just served him and dropped it. So he had to hire an attorney and file for the divorce, and we are still (somewhat impatiently) waiting for the decree. If I didn't understand the legal documents, I could easily have filed, put the date of the petition on there, and gone forward with this process, thinking yes, he was divorced. In fact, he wasn't and I would have been in this same situation - Without knowingly committing fraud.

Suppose for a moment, hypothetically, that sus and her fiance had not realized the divorce was not final prior to filing I-129F petition. If they had gone through with it, putting in "divorced" for status of beneficiary, and supplying a date, it probably would have passed through USCIS and NVC processing and arrived at consulate. Most likely, it would be detected at that point because consulate would demand documentation of divorce, and at that point the application would be denied.

However my question to you is - do you think they would also be banned from refiling in such a (hypothetical) case? There was no intent to defraud here. In my view the appropriate penalty would be denial of the first filing, but no ban on making subsequent petitions. Curious to know if you agree/disagree.

But how do you not realize something like that? normally you have to go to court...and if you dont...you always have papers stating it was final. So not realizing a divorse/annulment is not final...does not even make sense.

How do you not realize something like that? Because people are human. And they overlook things. And misunderstand things. And confuse things. And are not perfect creatures as apparently some (you?) demand they must be prior to filing an application.

An honest mistake is not fraud.

And yes, this scenario does "make sense". People make mistakes. I certainly do. President Obama just famously admitted to "screwing up" with Daschle's nomination. Are you saying every visa applicant should be superior to that standard?

Sus' fiance was making an honest mistake: "He thought he was divorced - his ex had served him, he thought it was done" (Sus's words). Thankfully, Sus caught his mistake in time. But what if she hadn't? Does the full force of criminal legal sanctions come crashing down on someone because they made a human error? That's certainly not my understanding of the Criminal code, and also not of the Immigration system.

There is NO mistake in this. I dont know what it is that you are not comprehending. No one is putting any blame on the USC..this is all the doing of the OP...the pinay girl.

Your either free to marry or your NOT.

If you dont have the papers in your hands showing you are divorse or annuled...then your not...and if your not then you dont file for the K1...and if you do and your not free to marry..it is FRAUD.

ESPECIALLY since you HAVE to include all divorse/annulment papers with the K1 petition.

Ive said it a million times...the OP KNEW she was still married to someone else...still filled out the G325 as if she was free to marry. that is fraud.

knowing your not free to marry but filling out the forms as you are...is fraud. There is no mistake if you KNOW your still married.

the number one requirment for the K1 is that both ppl are free to marry...the OP knew she wasnt...filed anyway...with hopes that by interview time she would be annulled. THAT IS FRAUD!

I also think YOU are continuing to argue for the sake of wanting to argue. Your points are invalid in this situation. No matter how you try to argue it...it was not a mistake.

Edited February 8, 2009 by Sinergy

[desert_fox 32]

How do you not realize something like that? Because people are human. And they overlook things. And misunderstand things. And confuse things. And are not perfect creatures as apparently some (you?) demand they must be prior to filing an application.

An honest mistake is not fraud.

And yes, this scenario does "make sense". People make mistakes. I certainly do. President Obama just famously admitted to "screwing up" with Daschle's nomination. Are you saying every visa applicant should be superior to that standard?

Sus' fiance was making an honest mistake: "He thought he was divorced - his ex had served him, he thought it was done" (Sus's words). Thankfully, Sus caught his mistake in time. But what if she hadn't? Does the full force of criminal legal sanctions come crashing down on someone because they made a human error? That's certainly not my understanding of the Criminal code, and also not of the Immigration system.

Oh pluzzzz.....give it up.

If on your petition you declared a divorce but did not submit the correct papers to prove it...they would have sent you an RFE. If you could not submit the required proof, they would have summarily denied your petition, as it would have never made it out of the USCIS. In this case you would apply again when you have the required proofs.

Now, if you omit the divorce, but the Consulate checks the govt marriages records and discover a marriage that was neither declared, nor terminated....then that fraud.

This is all speculation, as none of us know what happened and Im reallyh not interested unless the OP has something more to sway.

[daboyz 36]

hi pushbrk,

you have so much knowlegde and i am amazed about that..but to tell you what your not helping anymore to the couple..once is enough and you dont need to keep on repeating it over and over again...do you think she would like to read everything we said here thats all REPEATS with what they are both feeling now...the emotional stress your adding to them...dont you think of that? dont you have even a heart to feel that and you just keep on saying what you think is right...please try to have some consideration here..every person is different so please burry this issue already..

i dont think she needs so much of your knowledge..she needs prayers now more than your knowledge..thank you.

God bless you pushbrk and to everyone here in the forum.

Prayers and 50 cents will get you a cup of coffee.

[Old Dominion 26]

[/size]First of all i just wanna say hello to anyone there! i just really need your opinion right now,

i am not lucky like the usually people who got there chance to have a visa...

My Problem is i have my previous marriage before and now i am waiting for my decisions to come this month... But the woman in consul whose interviewing me today she's was denying my papers... she never give me a consideration to wait my decision this month...

So i just wanna know what is the best way that i can do once i received my decision..b'coz the embassy didnt give me an instruction to what i do then

if ever i have my decision from the court... if am i going to apply for new application for petition? or am i going to send the copy of my decision to the USCIS or Appealing for my case.... they we're just told me once my previous marriage not terminated they will never give me a visa thats it...and returned my passport, so no clue about any instruction..

My boyfriend and i we both deppresed about this things happen to us..please kindly give us some advise ..ill wait for your kindly feedback and reply

Godbless all!!

thank you..

MadzandCarl

The two of you will be free to marry in the Phils. Then, if you want to, you can start the process of getting a visa for you to come to the U.S. as his spouse. You can only hope and pray that the USCIS will overlook the serious mistakes that you both made already, either on purpose or innocently. There is no way to predict how this will all play out. But there is no point in taking your annulment decree to the Embassy. Your case is closed.

[daboyz 36]

That said, you long ago post was sound advice but their chances of success with a second I-129F are none and no way, IMO.

See? Those 3 letters 'IMO' really do make it all better. It just takes the judgmental edge off the phrase they complete. It doesn't negate the thrust of your statement, just makes it clear that it's an opinion, not a fact. Makes all the difference in the world. IMO, of course

Push, more seriously, I'd really be interested in your view of the one actual tangible case study that was shared on this thread, other than OP's. It was posted by sus and I don't recall seeing your reaction to it, or anyone else (other than mine). I think it's very germane to the case at hand. I'll quote the relevant bit here:

Let me give you another scenario - My own - because had I not know what I know about the process and the law, I would be in this exact position. When my fiance and I started talking about filing and gathering the documentation, I told him we needed a copy of his divorce decree. He gave me what he had - he was divorced in 2004 (he thought) - I work in the legal field (not immigration, typically), and I looked at it and realized it wasn't a final dissolution - it was the original process. He thought he was divorced - his ex had served him, he thought it was done - When we tried to get a copy of the decree, it turned out that she never did it - she just served him and dropped it. So he had to hire an attorney and file for the divorce, and we are still (somewhat impatiently) waiting for the decree. If I didn't understand the legal documents, I could easily have filed, put the date of the petition on there, and gone forward with this process, thinking yes, he was divorced. In fact, he wasn't and I would have been in this same situation - Without knowingly committing fraud.

Suppose for a moment, hypothetically, that sus and her fiance had not realized the divorce was not final prior to filing I-129F petition. If they had gone through with it, putting in "divorced" for status of beneficiary, and supplying a date, it probably would have passed through USCIS and NVC processing and arrived at consulate. Most likely, it would be detected at that point because consulate would demand documentation of divorce, and at that point the application would be denied.

However my question to you is - do you think they would also be banned from refiling in such a (hypothetical) case? There was no intent to defraud here. In my view the appropriate penalty would be denial of the first filing, but no ban on making subsequent petitions. Curious to know if you agree/disagree.

But how do you not realize something like that? normally you have to go to court...and if you dont...you always have papers stating it was final. So not realizing a divorse/annulment is not final...does not even make sense.

How do you not realize something like that? Because people are human. And they overlook things. And misunderstand things. And confuse things. And are not perfect creatures as apparently some (you?) demand they must be prior to filing an application.

An honest mistake is not fraud.

And yes, this scenario does "make sense". People make mistakes. I certainly do. President Obama just famously admitted to "screwing up" with Daschle's nomination. Are you saying every visa applicant should be superior to that standard?

Sus' fiance was making an honest mistake: "He thought he was divorced - his ex had served him, he thought it was done" (Sus's words). Thankfully, Sus caught his mistake in time. But what if she hadn't? Does the full force of criminal legal sanctions come crashing down on someone because they made a human error? That's certainly not my understanding of the Criminal code, and also not of the Immigration system.

Yes it does. If your driver's license is suspended whether you know it or not, you go to jail. Ignorance of the law is never an excuse.

Oops I killed my neighbor, I didn't know it was illegal. Seems like common sense to me that you make sure one marriage is finished before entering another.

[sus 70]

But how do you not realize something like that? normally you have to go to court...and if you dont...you always have papers stating it was final. So not realizing a divorse/annulment is not final...does not even make sense.

First of all - there is no normally that you have to go to court - if someone sues you (for anything) the logical thing is to appear in court - but not everyone does, nor is it required - In a situation where you are dealing with two foreign countries - More often then not, only one party is going to appear in court - also, not being familiar with the legal process in that country, reading the petition, my fiance thought it was final - he'd been living for 5 years thinking he was divorced - she filed it, sent him the paperwork - he thought it was done - So did I from reading the papers he had - what I did know was that what he had wasn't a formal decree - when we tried to get one from the court is when we found out it wasn't finalized, or filed - they had no record of it -

Plus, if someone is served with divorce papers, doesn't appear, is served by notice in the paper, etc... they aren't always going to have papers stating that it was final.

Another example that I can give you is from my job - we try to repossess a car - the person has moved, left no forwarding address - we publish it in the paper for their last known area of residence - the judge grants the order - They don't read the paper, didn't see the notice - one day they are driving around and some sheriff comes and takes their car. It happens every day.

[sus 70]

That said, you long ago post was sound advice but their chances of success with a second I-129F are none and no way, IMO.

See? Those 3 letters 'IMO' really do make it all better. It just takes the judgmental edge off the phrase they complete. It doesn't negate the thrust of your statement, just makes it clear that it's an opinion, not a fact. Makes all the difference in the world. IMO, of course

Push, more seriously, I'd really be interested in your view of the one actual tangible case study that was shared on this thread, other than OP's. It was posted by sus and I don't recall seeing your reaction to it, or anyone else (other than mine). I think it's very germane to the case at hand. I'll quote the relevant bit here:

Let me give you another scenario - My own - because had I not know what I know about the process and the law, I would be in this exact position. When my fiance and I started talking about filing and gathering the documentation, I told him we needed a copy of his divorce decree. He gave me what he had - he was divorced in 2004 (he thought) - I work in the legal field (not immigration, typically), and I looked at it and realized it wasn't a final dissolution - it was the original process. He thought he was divorced - his ex had served him, he thought it was done - When we tried to get a copy of the decree, it turned out that she never did it - she just served him and dropped it. So he had to hire an attorney and file for the divorce, and we are still (somewhat impatiently) waiting for the decree. If I didn't understand the legal documents, I could easily have filed, put the date of the petition on there, and gone forward with this process, thinking yes, he was divorced. In fact, he wasn't and I would have been in this same situation - Without knowingly committing fraud.

Suppose for a moment, hypothetically, that sus and her fiance had not realized the divorce was not final prior to filing I-129F petition. If they had gone through with it, putting in "divorced" for status of beneficiary, and supplying a date, it probably would have passed through USCIS and NVC processing and arrived at consulate. Most likely, it would be detected at that point because consulate would demand documentation of divorce, and at that point the application would be denied.

However my question to you is - do you think they would also be banned from refiling in such a (hypothetical) case? There was no intent to defraud here. In my view the appropriate penalty would be denial of the first filing, but no ban on making subsequent petitions. Curious to know if you agree/disagree.

But how do you not realize something like that? normally you have to go to court...and if you dont...you always have papers stating it was final. So not realizing a divorse/annulment is not final...does not even make sense.

How do you not realize something like that? Because people are human. And they overlook things. And misunderstand things. And confuse things. And are not perfect creatures as apparently some (you?) demand they must be prior to filing an application.

An honest mistake is not fraud.

And yes, this scenario does "make sense". People make mistakes. I certainly do. President Obama just famously admitted to "screwing up" with Daschle's nomination. Are you saying every visa applicant should be superior to that standard?

Sus' fiance was making an honest mistake: "He thought he was divorced - his ex had served him, he thought it was done" (Sus's words). Thankfully, Sus caught his mistake in time. But what if she hadn't? Does the full force of criminal legal sanctions come crashing down on someone because they made a human error? That's certainly not my understanding of the Criminal code, and also not of the Immigration system.

Yes it does. If your driver's license is suspended whether you know it or not, you go to jail. Ignorance of the law is never an excuse.

Oops I killed my neighbor, I didn't know it was illegal. Seems like common sense to me that you make sure one marriage is finished before entering another.

Daboyz - what is going on in this thread is pure ignorance of the law - You can't say 100% that anything will happen - and you are comparing apples to oranges here.

Just in the example you gave - My DL was suspended - over failure to pay a ticket (I had paid it, there was an error) - I didn't know it for 1 year, until I got pulled over - The cop gave me a citation - I went to court, explained it all to the judge - He threw out all the fines, reinstated my license, no penalties - Sorry, I was ignorant of the law - but I didn't go to jail.

A drunk driver killed my 18 month old son - He knew that driving drunk was against the law - Ya know what - he walked out with a suspended sentence!

Nothing in the world is so black and white as you all are trying to spout off -

[scandal 951]

A drunk driver killed my 18 month old son - He knew that driving drunk was against the law - Ya know what - he walked out with a suspended sentence!

Sus

I am so sorry for your loss. Lsoing a child in such a way - I cannot imagine how you live with such a tragedy. All the best.

[daboyz 36]

That said, you long ago post was sound advice but their chances of success with a second I-129F are none and no way, IMO.

See? Those 3 letters 'IMO' really do make it all better. It just takes the judgmental edge off the phrase they complete. It doesn't negate the thrust of your statement, just makes it clear that it's an opinion, not a fact. Makes all the difference in the world. IMO, of course

Push, more seriously, I'd really be interested in your view of the one actual tangible case study that was shared on this thread, other than OP's. It was posted by sus and I don't recall seeing your reaction to it, or anyone else (other than mine). I think it's very germane to the case at hand. I'll quote the relevant bit here:

Let me give you another scenario - My own - because had I not know what I know about the process and the law, I would be in this exact position. When my fiance and I started talking about filing and gathering the documentation, I told him we needed a copy of his divorce decree. He gave me what he had - he was divorced in 2004 (he thought) - I work in the legal field (not immigration, typically), and I looked at it and realized it wasn't a final dissolution - it was the original process. He thought he was divorced - his ex had served him, he thought it was done - When we tried to get a copy of the decree, it turned out that she never did it - she just served him and dropped it. So he had to hire an attorney and file for the divorce, and we are still (somewhat impatiently) waiting for the decree. If I didn't understand the legal documents, I could easily have filed, put the date of the petition on there, and gone forward with this process, thinking yes, he was divorced. In fact, he wasn't and I would have been in this same situation - Without knowingly committing fraud.

Suppose for a moment, hypothetically, that sus and her fiance had not realized the divorce was not final prior to filing I-129F petition. If they had gone through with it, putting in "divorced" for status of beneficiary, and supplying a date, it probably would have passed through USCIS and NVC processing and arrived at consulate. Most likely, it would be detected at that point because consulate would demand documentation of divorce, and at that point the application would be denied.

However my question to you is - do you think they would also be banned from refiling in such a (hypothetical) case? There was no intent to defraud here. In my view the appropriate penalty would be denial of the first filing, but no ban on making subsequent petitions. Curious to know if you agree/disagree.

But how do you not realize something like that? normally you have to go to court...and if you dont...you always have papers stating it was final. So not realizing a divorse/annulment is not final...does not even make sense.

How do you not realize something like that? Because people are human. And they overlook things. And misunderstand things. And confuse things. And are not perfect creatures as apparently some (you?) demand they must be prior to filing an application.

An honest mistake is not fraud.

And yes, this scenario does "make sense". People make mistakes. I certainly do. President Obama just famously admitted to "screwing up" with Daschle's nomination. Are you saying every visa applicant should be superior to that standard?

Sus' fiance was making an honest mistake: "He thought he was divorced - his ex had served him, he thought it was done" (Sus's words). Thankfully, Sus caught his mistake in time. But what if she hadn't? Does the full force of criminal legal sanctions come crashing down on someone because they made a human error? That's certainly not my understanding of the Criminal code, and also not of the Immigration system.

Yes it does. If your driver's license is suspended whether you know it or not, you go to jail. Ignorance of the law is never an excuse.

Oops I killed my neighbor, I didn't know it was illegal. Seems like common sense to me that you make sure one marriage is finished before entering another.

Daboyz - what is going on in this thread is pure ignorance of the law - You can't say 100% that anything will happen - and you are comparing apples to oranges here.

Just in the example you gave - My DL was suspended - over failure to pay a ticket (I had paid it, there was an error) - I didn't know it for 1 year, until I got pulled over - The cop gave me a citation - I went to court, explained it all to the judge - He threw out all the fines, reinstated my license, no penalties - Sorry, I was ignorant of the law - but I didn't go to jail.

A drunk driver killed my 18 month old son - He knew that driving drunk was against the law - Ya know what - he walked out with a suspended sentence!

Nothing in the world is so black and white as you all are trying to spout off -

First of all sorry for your loss. I honestly mean that.

The fact remains, if you break the law, not being aware of said law is not an excuse to break it. If that was the case, people would use that excuse for anything.

In your case of the driver's license. YOU are talking apples and oranges here. You obviously didn't break a law since your license was valid.

Ignorance of laws is never an excuse. Bottom line. Ask any lawyer.

[sus 70]

First, thank you for your condolences - UScandual - I have to try to keep in my mind that everything happens for a reason - my son was an angel who was brought into my life for a short time to show me some things - As hard as it is, I would never change the time that I had with him, and have to cherish that.

As for Daboyz - My license was suspended - I did not know it - By all rights, I could have been in jail - I was driving on a suspended license, I just didn't know it - I was ignorant of it.

My point (which seems to have been missed) in posting the stories that I have was to give concrete examples of how not everything is black and white - it would be nice if they were, and if the laws were applied uniformly - but the reality of life is that they aren't and never are - Things happen, mistakes happen - nothing in life is exactly as it should be - And people in this thread have served as judge, jury, and executioner without having all the facts.

I never said the OP was right / wrong / whatever - But the amount of armchair judges in this thread who are so solidly certain that they are the authority on what will / won't / did happen, without having all the facts, is astonishing - Didn't anyone ever hear the old saying about don't ASSUME....

[daboyz 36]

First, thank you for your condolences - UScandual - I have to try to keep in my mind that everything happens for a reason - my son was an angel who was brought into my life for a short time to show me some things - As hard as it is, I would never change the time that I had with him, and have to cherish that.

As for Daboyz - My license was suspended - I did not know it - By all rights, I could have been in jail - I was driving on a suspended license, I just didn't know it - I was ignorant of it.

My point (which seems to have been missed) in posting the stories that I have was to give concrete examples of how not everything is black and white - it would be nice if they were, and if the laws were applied uniformly - but the reality of life is that they aren't and never are - Things happen, mistakes happen - nothing in life is exactly as it should be - And people in this thread have served as judge, jury, and executioner without having all the facts.

I never said the OP was right / wrong / whatever - But the amount of armchair judges in this thread who are so solidly certain that they are the authority on what will / won't / did happen, without having all the facts, is astonishing - Didn't anyone ever hear the old saying about don't ASSUME....

I agree with you. It just seems kinda strange to me that someone doesn't know their marital status for whatever reason.

Oops I got married in vegas and forgot about it. I don't know, the OP's post seems odd.

[scandal 951]

First of all sorry for your loss. I honestly mean that.

The fact remains, if you break the law, not being aware of said law is not an excuse to break it. If that was the case, people would use that excuse for anything.

In your case of the driver's license. YOU are talking apples and oranges here. You obviously didn't break a law since your license was valid.

Ignorance of laws is never an excuse. Bottom line. Ask any lawyer.

You are absolutely correct - ignorance of the law is never an excuse. I agree entirely.

What I think is still not being understood is what IS the law, and what entails breaking the law. For some statutes, there is no need to show intent. the standard is easier to prove because physical evidence can suffice. For other statues, there is an element of intent, and then the bar is higher.

Take Your example of "I killed my neighbor. I didn't know". Depending upon what you "didn't know" means you're guilty of different possible crimes - 1st or 2nd degree manslaughter, or capital murder. The reason the law includes these different levels of severity is because the presence (or absence) of intent is seen by society as making a difference in the penalty. Sure, you're definitely guilty of something. You shouldn't be able to walk away with no consequences. But proving intent and state of mind are VITAL for those statutes that need to show willful action.

Returning to immigration visas, as I've been trying to point out (apparently unsuccessfully) the statutory definition of perjury does also require an element of intent, just as capital murder does. That does leave room for honest mistakes. It allows for cases where facts are misstated (e.g. marital status) but if done so without intent to deceive, no crime has been committed.

I again return to sus' case as a real world example to show that this is not so far fetched. I don't know if it applies to the OP.