doctor investigated in badly botched abortion

[Mags 112]

Society did NOT fail this woman. This woman failed herself in a despicable way. She was old enough to jump into bed with some guy and get knocked up. She is an adult and as such, should have made a decision to terminate long before 23 weeks. Society is not repsonsible for the ####### decisions that people make, and nor should it be blamed when a stupid 18 year old WOMAN makes herself an accessory to murder. If this haunts her for the rest of her life, so it should.

Wow.

You don't know this woman, all you know are a VERY few facts. To judge her on a few scraps of information is just wrong.

We don't know her situation, her frame of mind, her education levels, what the doctor told her...nothing. And let's not forget that teenagers have the ability to try and put things to the back of their minds thinking they have enough time.

The doctor may have told her what she wanted to hear in order to get her to pay him the money for the abortion.

We just don't know.

What she went through was appalling and I'm sure she will regret this for the rest of her life.

She was wrong, I agree, but I wouldn't judge her without having more facts.

[Danno 1,228]

Sounds to me more like the social trend of:

MAke the guilty party into a victim.

This lady was 18, our laws allow much younger girls to make these choices without parental consent.

We would hold any 18 year old soldier accountable for his actions which caused death outside of the rules of engagement, what makes her "pressure" so great that she not only escapes a share in the blame but gets promoted to victim status?

It's interesting how, in some cases a few leaked news stories and the web are enough for us to convict, but in these type cases we are always told to "hold our judgment" until all the facts are in.

(as if the news story lasts that long.)

[NickD 203]

Sounds to me more like the social trend of:

MAke the guilty party into a victim.

This lady was 18, our laws allow much younger girls to make these choices without parental consent.

We would hold any 18 year old soldier accountable for his actions which caused death outside of the rules of engagement, what makes her "pressure" so great that she not only escapes a share in the blame but gets promoted to victim status?

It's interesting how, in some cases a few leaked news stories and the web are enough for us to convict, but in these type cases we are always told to "hold our judgment" until all the facts are in.

(as if the news story lasts that long.)

We do have our laws, a minor girl can get birth control devices, laid, pregnant, and even have an abortion at her will. But just can't get married without her parents permission.

[Caladan 19]

Pretty sickening.

Just emailed the sister. She's an Ob/Gyn and can tell us through me after what week is considered physiologically viable- I have often heard its 37 weeks. I doubt that 23 weeks would be considered as such. But a live birth is a live birth and should be treated as a pre-term.

23 weeks is about the earliest that a baby would have a teenyweeny chance of surviving with modern medicine. I have a friend who is a neonatal pediatrician and before that, there's not much they can do because the baby is simply too small for things like breathing tubes and needles (aside from all of the physical immaturity.)

Still, this is appalling.

[Danno 1,228]

Sounds to me more like the social trend of:

MAke the guilty party into a victim.

This lady was 18, our laws allow much younger girls to make these choices without parental consent.

We would hold any 18 year old soldier accountable for his actions which caused death outside of the rules of engagement, what makes her "pressure" so great that she not only escapes a share in the blame but gets promoted to victim status?

It's interesting how, in some cases a few leaked news stories and the web are enough for us to convict, but in these type cases we are always told to "hold our judgment" until all the facts are in.

(as if the news story lasts that long.)

We do have our laws, a minor girl can get birth control devices, laid, pregnant, and even have an abortion at her will. But just can't get married without her parents permission.

Nor her ears pierced. (not to mention a tattoo)

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

Hmmm... Let's play spot the agenda.

Seriously

[HAL 9000 96]

If "get over yourself" is a mature response, then you need to get over yourself. One must have a deep disrespect for the vulnerable developing humanity in the womb to boil it down to simple viability. No baby, pre-birth or after birth, can defend itself; that is what society must do. Biologist or not, your biased agenda is one that respects murder, that's why you lack credibility. As a social scientist, I have the perspective of what the death cult has done to numb society, and that has coursened us as a people.

No, the get over yourself is the expected response to your diversion technique- which in itself should not come to you as a surprise in your planned course of action as a social scientist.

As a scientist I also have the perspective that accompanies observing and classifying the ignorance that arises enough of scientific (and medical) reality, which in due time lends itself to whatever agenda you may want to pursue and that unsurprisingly ignores the fact of the matter. As a social scientist you should perhaps focus on how people that are already developed are treating each other before delving into matters which you refuse to understand. Like, for example, evading the very real, significant, and non-absolute topic that is embryological viability. Again, you can refer to the original posts for yourself.

[HAL 9000 96]

Pretty sickening.

Just emailed the sister. She's an Ob/Gyn and can tell us through me after what week is considered physiologically viable- I have often heard its 37 weeks. I doubt that 23 weeks would be considered as such. But a live birth is a live birth and should be treated as a pre-term.

As a rule (in teh UK) a baby born at 24 weeks will be given every chance of survival. It may have some problems as it gets older and be slower developmentally, but the docs will still try.

For the record a 23 week old fetus is approx 29cm in length and will weigh around a pound.

I don't think personal choice abortions should be carried out after 16 weeks. For medical reasons it should be done on a case by case basis.

Obama is in favor of allowing babies born alive during abortions to be left to die, as his Illinois Senate record shows. So, expect to see more of this, albeit, more clinical and less sloppy than this case. If you're pro-abortion, then accept the fact that killinga life is what an abortion does. No way around it.

Oh, more of your drivel. Yeah, Obama hates babies blah, blah, blah.

I post so that you can display your hatefulness. Baiting you is child's play.

And baiting is against the TOS.

Absolutely. As I stated in the post back on page one or two. It was a live birth for crying out loud... this 'baby' if we want to be correct about semantics... should have been given every chance- whether slim or not, to survive. Then we could argue about how there are some people that have very wide anti-taxation stances don't want to pay the state to maintain these children (if they survive past a day or two) since very likely the horrific example of this premature birth's probable negligent homicide would have become an example of an abandoned baby to become a ward of the state.

[HAL 9000 96]

Pretty sickening.

Just emailed the sister. She's an Ob/Gyn and can tell us through me after what week is considered physiologically viable- I have often heard its 37 weeks. I doubt that 23 weeks would be considered as such. But a live birth is a live birth and should be treated as a pre-term.

23 weeks is about the earliest that a baby would have a teenyweeny chance of surviving with modern medicine. I have a friend who is a neonatal pediatrician and before that, there's not much they can do because the baby is simply too small for things like breathing tubes and needles (aside from all of the physical immaturity.)

Still, this is appalling.

Yep.

I also find it disheartening that there are people merely using this dead baby as a stepping stone to push their agenda of imposition. That's pretty gross and pathetic as well.

[Danno 1,228]

I disagree, I think Using this dead babies story to highlight the hundreds and thousands of like fetuses/babies which are thrown in the trash is legit.

So let me get this right.

IN your intelligent mind, this baby has rights if it's some how "alive" when it makes it out of the womb, but it's perfectly fine to destroy this same baby on the same day while still inside the womb?

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

I disagree, I think Using this dead babies story to highlight the hundreds and thousands of like fetuses/babies which are thrown in the trash is legit.

So let me get this right.

IN your intelligent mind, this baby has rights if it's some how "alive" when it makes it out of the womb, but it's perfectly fine to destroy this same baby on the same day while still inside the womb?

You're using this extreme case to challenge the entire pro-choice stance on an ideological level.

That my friend - is propaganda.

[HAL 9000 96]

I disagree, I think Using this dead babies story to highlight the hundreds and thousands of like fetuses/babies which are thrown in the trash is legit.

So let me get this right.

IN your intelligent mind, this baby has rights if it's some how "alive" when it makes it out of the womb, but it's perfectly fine to destroy this same baby on the same day while still inside the womb?

You're using this extreme case to challenge the entire pro-choice stance on an ideological level.

That my friend - is propaganda.

Absolutely, again.

[Marilyn. 340]

technically the baby would not have been thrown in the trash, she would have been cremated...

I was told that girls born that young have a higher chance of surviving than boys ...

[MichelleN 0]

Not really looking into getting into this whole debate but I do want to throw this fact in that wasn't mentioned in the article listed in the OP. The girl didn't even know she was pregnant till she was 23 weeks. From CNN:

According to the suit, Williams, then 18, discovered while being treated for a fall that she was 23 weeks pregnant. She went to a clinic to get an abortion on the morning of July 20, 2006, after receiving medication and instructions the previous day.

I know that probably won't make a difference for many peoples' opinions on the matter but this isn't a case of her waiting and waiting and waiting till finally, at 23 weeks, deciding to do it after all that time. She had no idea and it more than likely came as a complete shock and she may have been acting on a frightened impulse.

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

Not really looking into getting into this whole debate but I do want to throw this fact in that wasn't mentioned in the article listed in the OP. The girl didn't even know she was pregnant till she was 23 weeks. From CNN:

According to the suit, Williams, then 18, discovered while being treated for a fall that she was 23 weeks pregnant. She went to a clinic to get an abortion on the morning of July 20, 2006, after receiving medication and instructions the previous day.

I know that probably won't make a difference for many peoples' opinions on the matter but this isn't a case of her waiting and waiting and waiting till finally, at 23 weeks, deciding to do it after all that time. She had no idea and it more than likely came as a complete shock and she may have been acting on a frightened impulse.

Don't let that get in the way of people's preconceptions.