doctor investigated in badly botched abortion

[HAL 9000 96]

I am sure everyone agrees that no fetus should be treated in this appalling way, no matter what side of the abortion issue you sit.

This story does nothing to forward a mature debate, it just seems to seek to fuel the anger mindset of those who are entrenched in their position. Or at least, the way the OP presented it that seems to be the 'point'. How stupid.

MC, I posted a timely story which highlights the obscenity of abortion.

I'm willing to bet, a lot more late-term abortions took place last year than there were cases of waterboarding yet I don't recall you being bothered by those stories being posted.

Other people post what they like and I will too, quite being a crybaby about it.

She isn't wrong though - this is an extreme case, and it has been/is being used to justify entrenched ideological positions on the subject.

Late term abortions (over 20 weeks) account to less than 2% of the total, according to the CDC.

In other words - this is far from representative, and as such is little more than a nuance of an intensely complex moral/ethical debate.

when you say it like that... it doesn't sound so bad PD.

Last I read we are doing over a million abortions a year: what's 2% of a million?

And how many people got waterboarded?

*IIRC, there is no law requiring abortions to be reported, CDC numbers are not facts.

Get over it.

BTW, for your irrational comparison to make any sense, there would have to be comparable population numbers of waterboarded suspects. Slip slip slip.

I am sure everyone agrees that no fetus should be treated in this appalling way, no matter what side of the abortion issue you sit.

This story does nothing to forward a mature debate, it just seems to seek to fuel the anger mindset of those who are entrenched in their position. Or at least, the way the OP presented it that seems to be the 'point'. How stupid.

MC, I posted a timely story which highlights the obscenity of abortion.

I'm willing to bet, a lot more late-term abortions took place last year than there were cases of waterboarding yet I don't recall you being bothered by those stories being posted.

Other people post what they like and I will too, quite being a crybaby about it.

She isn't wrong though - this is an extreme case, and it has been/is being used to justify entrenched ideological positions on the subject.

Late term abortions (over 20 weeks) account to less than 2% of the total, according to the CDC.

In other words - this is far from representative, and as such is little more than a nuance of an intensely complex moral/ethical debate.

when you say it like that... it doesn't sound so bad PD.

Last I read we are doing over a million abortions a year: what's 2% of a million?

And how many people got waterboarded?

*IIRC, there is no law requiring abortions to be reported, CDC numbers are not facts.

Danno - that's just bait and switch. If you want to talk about a subject - stop bringing in irrelevant tangents (that would be waterboarding).

The CDC numbers are "facts" insofar as its possible to obtain them.

And inasmuch as waterboarding data is made available.

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

Its about keeping the outrage going I guess...

So far I don't think anyone here has tried to use this case to justify abortion - I think someone's just fishing for an argument.

[HAL 9000 96]

Its about keeping the outrage going I guess...

So far I don't think anyone here has tried to use this case to justify abortion - I think someone's just fishing for an argument.

Exactly.

Well... Genius did try to say that a justification was made by people that believe in a woman's right to choose... when in fact those that (in this thread, to be fair and accurate) quite clearly stated what a horrible particular example this was. The rest of the argument is of course, unrelated to what is really the philosophy of imposing unto others what is not imposable.

[Perseverance 1]

This girl was 18 and yes a legal adult...none the less, where were the adults that have more life experience, in her life....parents, guardians, teachers, mentors....someone... why was she alone...did she ever seek prenatal care....did she have an education about pregnancy and the stages of life...did anyone advise her that she was going to give birth to a living baby...why did she feel this was her only choice?? We can stand by and judge and crucify her...but I really feel that society failed her. Now she will have to live with the horror for the rest of her life. If she can get up everyday and face herself. I speculate that her mental status was not in a place to make an informed decision when she made the choice that she did, now she is crashing from her body adjusting to the lack of hormones from the pregnancy, (some call this the baby blues, post natal depression) I hope that someone is looking after her I could see a child like this, (and yes she is a child labeled as an adult at 18, as if an age makes one ready to be an adult) falling into a deeper place and attempting to ease her emotional pain through the means of taking her own life. This story is disturbing on so many levels. I understand that we all have our own opinions on the subject of abortion, but rather than judge this girl for what she did,why not ask where were the responsible adults that could have helped her with such a huge decision in her life? Not to mention....where was the unborn child's father in this mess?? Their is more than one victim in this sad and disturbing story. To see other adults bickering and casting judgements makes it all the more disturbing to me.

[Ban Hammer 13,659]

Obama is in favor of allowing babies born alive during abortions to be left to die, as his Illinois Senate record shows. So, expect to see more of this, albeit, more clinical and less sloppy than this case. If you're pro-abortion, then accept the fact that killinga life is what an abortion does. No way around it.

Oh, more of your drivel. Yeah, Obama hates babies blah, blah, blah.

you could try to debate rather than dismiss.

She knows she'd lose.

Hey, Chuck!

hiya vw

[britty 1]

This girl was 18 and yes a legal adult...none the less, where were the adults that have more life experience, in her life....parents, guardians, teachers, mentors....someone... why was she alone...did she ever seek prenatal care....did she have an education about pregnancy and the stages of life...did anyone advise her that she was going to give birth to a living baby...why did she feel this was her only choice?? We can stand by and judge and crucify her...but I really feel that society failed her. Now she will have to live with the horror for the rest of her life. If she can get up everyday and face herself. I speculate that her mental status was not in a place to make an informed decision when she made the choice that she did, now she is crashing from her body adjusting to the lack of hormones from the pregnancy, (some call this the baby blues, post natal depression) I hope that someone is looking after her I could see a child like this, (and yes she is a child labeled as an adult at 18, as if an age makes one ready to be an adult) falling into a deeper place and attempting to ease her emotional pain through the means of taking her own life. This story is disturbing on so many levels. I understand that we all have our own opinions on the subject of abortion, but rather than judge this girl for what she did,why not ask where were the responsible adults that could have helped her with such a huge decision in her life? Not to mention....where was the unborn child's father in this mess?? Their is more than one victim in this sad and disturbing story. To see other adults bickering and casting judgements makes it all the more disturbing to me.

Society did NOT fail this woman. This woman failed herself in a despicable way. She was old enough to jump into bed with some guy and get knocked up. She is an adult and as such, should have made a decision to terminate long before 23 weeks. Society is not repsonsible for the ####### decisions that people make, and nor should it be blamed when a stupid 18 year old WOMAN makes herself an accessory to murder. If this haunts her for the rest of her life, so it should.

[Sofiyya 1,687]

Its about keeping the outrage going I guess...

So far I don't think anyone here has tried to use this case to justify abortion - I think someone's just fishing for an argument.

Exactly.

Well... Genius did try to say that a justification was made by people that believe in a woman's right to choose... when in fact those that (in this thread, to be fair and accurate) quite clearly stated what a horrible particular example this was. The rest of the argument is of course, unrelated to what is really the philosophy of imposing unto others what is not imposable.

It may be a particularly horrible example, but it proves the rule that such horrors are made possible by the support of those who believe that abortion on demand is a human right. The timing of an abortion matters little when it is legal to abort at will at 23 weeks. If you don't want women and doctors killing babies at 23 weeks, are you willing to oppose it and Obama's pro-death position? One of Barry's first acts in office was to make sure that US taxpayer dollars fund baby killing all over the world.

Or is the need to abort on demand (and the false belief that it is unstoppable) more pressing?

[Peikko 1,575]

Its about keeping the outrage going I guess...

So far I don't think anyone here has tried to use this case to justify abortion - I think someone's just fishing for an argument.

Exactly.

Well... Genius did try to say that a justification was made by people that believe in a woman's right to choose... when in fact those that (in this thread, to be fair and accurate) quite clearly stated what a horrible particular example this was. The rest of the argument is of course, unrelated to what is really the philosophy of imposing unto others what is not imposable.

It may be a particularly horrible example, but it proves the rule that such horrors are made possible by the support of those who believe that abortion on demand is a human right. The timing of an abortion matters little when it is legal to abort at will at 23 weeks. If you don't want women and doctors killing babies at 23 weeks, are you willing to oppose it and Obama's pro-death position? One of Barry's first acts in office was to make sure that US taxpayer dollars fund baby killing all over the world.

Or is the need to abort on demand (and the false belief that it is unstoppable) more pressing?

Can you get any more emotional about this subject? Perhaps post a few 'dead baby' pictures?

Clearly, you can't look at this subject objectively. I may as well take the case of rape victims as a starting point for the case of allowing for a woman's right to choose that would be equally objective. Perhaps I should find some really horrible rape cases and post them, you know, in order to provide balance.

[HAL 9000 96]

Its about keeping the outrage going I guess...

So far I don't think anyone here has tried to use this case to justify abortion - I think someone's just fishing for an argument.

Exactly.

Well... Genius did try to say that a justification was made by people that believe in a woman's right to choose... when in fact those that (in this thread, to be fair and accurate) quite clearly stated what a horrible particular example this was. The rest of the argument is of course, unrelated to what is really the philosophy of imposing unto others what is not imposable.

It may be a particularly horrible example, but it proves the rule that such horrors are made possible by the support of those who believe that abortion on demand is a human right. The timing of an abortion matters little when it is legal to abort at will at 23 weeks. If you don't want women and doctors killing babies at 23 weeks, are you willing to oppose it and Obama's pro-death position? One of Barry's first acts in office was to make sure that US taxpayer dollars fund baby killing all over the world.

Or is the need to abort on demand (and the false belief that it is unstoppable) more pressing?

I'd oppose it if it was a baby at 23 weeks. Read prior posts about medical and biological viability issues. Or ask your local politically-tuned to your bias MD if you like. Oh, and I happen to be a biologist. What this horrible example (again, being used by the totality of the argument in your sake to push an agenda of imposition upon an entire 9 month period, not just that time frame where survival becomes remotely possible with the aid of technology, genes, and luck- or divine intervention if you will).

As for the pro-death stance... gosh it just can't get any more VW than that can it? Get over yourself sister.

[Sofiyya 1,687]

In your mind, PH, merely posting about a subject makes me emotional. I posted an objective fact; Obama did authorize taxpayer money for abortion overseas. I posted an objective fact; suport for abortion on demand makes baby killing possible. Why don't you deal with issues instead of trying to make me your focus, as though I have no right to comment on the topic in the way I see fit? Are you simply unable to deal with the idea that there are others who see this issue differently than you do, and that compels you to try to make this personal between us?

Edited February 7, 2009 by Virtual wife

[Peikko 1,575]

In your mind, PH, merely posting about a subject makes me emotional. I posted an objective fact; Obama did authorize taxpayer money for abortion overseas. I posted an objective fact; suport for abortion on demand makes baby killing possible. Why don't you deal with issues instead of trying to make me your focus, as though I have no right to comment on the topic in the way I see fit? Are you simply unable to deal with the idea that there are others who see this issue differently than you do, and that compels you to try to make this personal between us?

Yeah, that's it. How clever of you Ms VW, how perceptive.

[Peikko 1,575]

Its about keeping the outrage going I guess...

So far I don't think anyone here has tried to use this case to justify abortion - I think someone's just fishing for an argument.

Exactly.

Well... Genius did try to say that a justification was made by people that believe in a woman's right to choose... when in fact those that (in this thread, to be fair and accurate) quite clearly stated what a horrible particular example this was. The rest of the argument is of course, unrelated to what is really the philosophy of imposing unto others what is not imposable.

It may be a particularly horrible example, but it proves the rule that such horrors are made possible by the support of those who believe that abortion on demand is a human right. The timing of an abortion matters little when it is legal to abort at will at 23 weeks. If you don't want women and doctors killing babies at 23 weeks, are you willing to oppose it and Obama's pro-death position? One of Barry's first acts in office was to make sure that US taxpayer dollars fund baby killing all over the world.

Or is the need to abort on demand (and the false belief that it is unstoppable) more pressing?

Emotive language and false associations those are your 'trump cards', your modus operendi. Argue with you? I don't think so, laugh at your lack of understanding? Sure, every time.

Edited February 7, 2009 by Madame Cleo

[Sofiyya 1,687]

Its about keeping the outrage going I guess...

So far I don't think anyone here has tried to use this case to justify abortion - I think someone's just fishing for an argument.

Exactly.

Well... Genius did try to say that a justification was made by people that believe in a woman's right to choose... when in fact those that (in this thread, to be fair and accurate) quite clearly stated what a horrible particular example this was. The rest of the argument is of course, unrelated to what is really the philosophy of imposing unto others what is not imposable.

It may be a particularly horrible example, but it proves the rule that such horrors are made possible by the support of those who believe that abortion on demand is a human right. The timing of an abortion matters little when it is legal to abort at will at 23 weeks. If you don't want women and doctors killing babies at 23 weeks, are you willing to oppose it and Obama's pro-death position? One of Barry's first acts in office was to make sure that US taxpayer dollars fund baby killing all over the world.

Or is the need to abort on demand (and the false belief that it is unstoppable) more pressing?

I'd oppose it if it was a baby at 23 weeks. Read prior posts about medical and biological viability issues. Or ask your local politically-tuned to your bias MD if you like. Oh, and I happen to be a biologist. What this horrible example (again, being used by the totality of the argument in your sake to push an agenda of imposition upon an entire 9 month period, not just that time frame where survival becomes remotely possible with the aid of technology, genes, and luck- or divine intervention if you will).

As for the pro-death stance... gosh it just can't get any more VW than that can it? Get over yourself sister.

If "get over yourself" is a mature response, then you need to get over yourself. One must have a deep disrespect for the vulnerable developing humanity in the womb to boil it down to simple viability. No baby, pre-birth or after birth, can defend itself; that is what society must do. Biologist or not, your biased agenda is one that respects murder, that's why you lack credibility. As a social scientist, I have the perspective of what the death cult has done to numb society, and that has coursened us as a people.

Its about keeping the outrage going I guess...

So far I don't think anyone here has tried to use this case to justify abortion - I think someone's just fishing for an argument.

Exactly.

Well... Genius did try to say that a justification was made by people that believe in a woman's right to choose... when in fact those that (in this thread, to be fair and accurate) quite clearly stated what a horrible particular example this was. The rest of the argument is of course, unrelated to what is really the philosophy of imposing unto others what is not imposable.

It may be a particularly horrible example, but it proves the rule that such horrors are made possible by the support of those who believe that abortion on demand is a human right. The timing of an abortion matters little when it is legal to abort at will at 23 weeks. If you don't want women and doctors killing babies at 23 weeks, are you willing to oppose it and Obama's pro-death position? One of Barry's first acts in office was to make sure that US taxpayer dollars fund baby killing all over the world.

Or is the need to abort on demand (and the false belief that it is unstoppable) more pressing?

Emotive language and false associations those are your 'trump cards', your modus operendi. Argue with you? I don't think so, laugh at your lack of understanding? Sure, every time.

You can't argue with me. You aren't that deep. That's why you go for the ad homineum every time.

Edited February 7, 2009 by Virtual wife

[Perseverance 1]

This girl was 18 and yes a legal adult...none the less, where were the adults that have more life experience, in her life....parents, guardians, teachers, mentors....someone... why was she alone...did she ever seek prenatal care....did she have an education about pregnancy and the stages of life...did anyone advise her that she was going to give birth to a living baby...why did she feel this was her only choice?? We can stand by and judge and crucify her...but I really feel that society failed her. Now she will have to live with the horror for the rest of her life. If she can get up everyday and face herself. I speculate that her mental status was not in a place to make an informed decision when she made the choice that she did, now she is crashing from her body adjusting to the lack of hormones from the pregnancy, (some call this the baby blues, post natal depression) I hope that someone is looking after her I could see a child like this, (and yes she is a child labeled as an adult at 18, as if an age makes one ready to be an adult) falling into a deeper place and attempting to ease her emotional pain through the means of taking her own life. This story is disturbing on so many levels. I understand that we all have our own opinions on the subject of abortion, but rather than judge this girl for what she did,why not ask where were the responsible adults that could have helped her with such a huge decision in her life? Not to mention....where was the unborn child's father in this mess?? Their is more than one victim in this sad and disturbing story. To see other adults bickering and casting judgements makes it all the more disturbing to me.

Society did NOT fail this woman. This woman failed herself in a despicable way. She was old enough to jump into bed with some guy and get knocked up. She is an adult and as such, should have made a decision to terminate long before 23 weeks. Society is not repsonsible for the ####### decisions that people make, and nor should it be blamed when a stupid 18 year old WOMAN makes herself an accessory to murder. If this haunts her for the rest of her life, so it should.

So glad I dont have look at the world through your eyes. Sex makes someone an adult....frightening. I am not going to ensue an argument with you about my views. I hope that should a decision you have made or yet to make falls into public view you dont have to feel the lash of the public whip....it seems that the view from your eyes she should be placed in the stocks at the town square and stoned to death. I choose to look at all sides and come from a place of compassion for all parties. Indeed society failed her and with the continuance of non compassionate attitudes it shall fail others. I see you do not have the "it takes a village attitude" and yet I hope that one day should you or your family need your village, that it is there to support and lift you up in your time of need...not throw stones at you.

[Mags 112]

Pretty sickening.

Just emailed the sister. She's an Ob/Gyn and can tell us through me after what week is considered physiologically viable- I have often heard its 37 weeks. I doubt that 23 weeks would be considered as such. But a live birth is a live birth and should be treated as a pre-term.

As a rule (in teh UK) a baby born at 24 weeks will be given every chance of survival. It may have some problems as it gets older and be slower developmentally, but the docs will still try.

For the record a 23 week old fetus is approx 29cm in length and will weigh around a pound.

I don't think personal choice abortions should be carried out after 16 weeks. For medical reasons it should be done on a case by case basis.

Obama is in favor of allowing babies born alive during abortions to be left to die, as his Illinois Senate record shows. So, expect to see more of this, albeit, more clinical and less sloppy than this case. If you're pro-abortion, then accept the fact that killinga life is what an abortion does. No way around it.

Oh, more of your drivel. Yeah, Obama hates babies blah, blah, blah.

I post so that you can display your hatefulness. Baiting you is child's play.

And baiting is against the TOS.

Edited February 7, 2009 by Magenta