As "urban war" escalates, neighbors are on patrol (armed with cellphones, flashlights and Twitter)

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

... in this country I think race has become somewhat synonymous with class.

I think that's only true in urban areas and surrounding metros. There is plenty of white poverty out there in the boonies.

Certainly.

[almaty 19]

true..and indian poverty out west..but in the midwest...it is more true..that race = poverty at least in the minds of white middle class joe six pack (no reference intended to my brother here on vj)

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

I don't get the outrage over these perceived "double standards". Of course you would not.

The issue of discrimination in relation to minorities is well documented - institutions (like the police) can't justify treating a whole group of people as second class citizens simply on the basis that there are more criminals from one community than another. You can't pre-judge individuals on the basis of expected behaviour - when the result of this is infringing on the rights of those individuals.

The fact is that we know in our bones who are the minorities and who therefore should have special protection within our societies. We know what's fair. Whites can, as it were, look after themselves - they are the majority. Blacks, Hispanics and indeed - Muslims are (for the present) the minorities and cannot always look after themselves in the same way. These are ideas fundamental to societies based on humane and indeed Christian principles.

Your assumption that we are are all the same is what blinds you. Humans are culturally different on many levels. Violence is much more acceptable in some cultures than others. It is also a product of ones environment. To pretend this is not the case is naive. To pretend that someone Japanese has the same attitude towards violence as an Australian for example is just ludicrous.

For someone to sit here and deny that 'minorities' from low socioeconomic backgrounds do not represent a large percentage of criminals in America is just moronic. Like many with similar views to that of your own, I am assuming that you don't live in a ghetto or anywhere near those you staunchly defend.

Statistics are not racist. Neither is the news. When I read a months worth of local news and see that 99% of criminals and murders involved black or Hispanic Americans, it is safe to assume that if one comes in contact with these groups they should avoid them. You want to go into a ghetto and walk by a group of minorities just to be PC, you go right ahead.

We may be different - yes, but we all have the same rights - is the point. Individuals should be treated the same and not pre-judged.

On the bolded parts - if you read what I wrote its quite obvious that I didn't deny the statistics. What I'm saying is that institutions likes the police can't use those statistics do diminish the rights of an entire group of people based on expected behaviour. There is such a thing as "reasonable suspicion" and as far as that goes - it shouldn't be (and isn't OK) for a police patrol car to pull over a black man simply because he's black on the assumption that he's likely to be up to no good. This is institutional racism.

Edited February 5, 2009 by Paul Daniels

[justashooter 430]

If you, for example, cross a street to avoid a group of black or hispanic youths walking the other way - you are prejudging those individuals on the basis of how you expect people like that to behave.

IMO that's not a bad thing, since you crossing the street to avoid them doesn't do any harm to them. We shouldn't completely ignore our instincts, you know.

If your only basis for doing it is that they're black/brown (as opposed to doing something actually suspicious) - that's not instinct, its subconscious prejudice.

When organizations like the police do it (i.e. pulling over a black man for no other reason than that he's driving an expensive car) that's institutional racism.

so when you are in vegas, you take a hit on a 19 or a 20? if you don't i'm calling you prejudiced against a good blackjack hand.

statistically speaking, you are more likely to bust if you take a hit on a 19 than on a 17, and more likely to go bust if you take a hit on a 17 than on a 15. statistically speaking, you are more likely to be victimised by a black than a hispanic, and more likely to be vicitmised by a hispanic than a white.

i'm not gonna post the FBI uniform crime statistics again. did that already. use the search function.

call me a racist all you like. telling the truth is not racism. take all the hits you want on a 19, but i'm holding.

[Heracles 417]

I am assuming that you don't live in a ghetto or anywhere near those you staunchly defend.

You can't live in Jersey and not be 'near'. He is near and so am I. You're in NoVa so I suspect so are you.

I'll use you as an example.

How many Indians migrate to America or numerous other western nations, without a dollar to their name? Now, how many Indians do you see or hear of committing crimes? But according to six, the police should also pull them over, just to be PC. Why? they are not the ones committing the crimes. So why should they be inconvenienced and harassed for no other reason than being PC.

[almaty 19]

The Indians, i have known, are gangsters...or sorry, i met american indians

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

If you, for example, cross a street to avoid a group of black or hispanic youths walking the other way - you are prejudging those individuals on the basis of how you expect people like that to behave.

IMO that's not a bad thing, since you crossing the street to avoid them doesn't do any harm to them. We shouldn't completely ignore our instincts, you know.

If your only basis for doing it is that they're black/brown (as opposed to doing something actually suspicious) - that's not instinct, its subconscious prejudice.

When organizations like the police do it (i.e. pulling over a black man for no other reason than that he's driving an expensive car) that's institutional racism.

so when you are in vegas, you take a hit on a 19 or a 20? if you don't i'm calling you prejudiced against a good blackjack hand.

statistically speaking, you are more likely to bust if you take a hit on a 19 than on a 17, and more likely to go bust if you take a hit on a 17 than on a 15. statistically speaking, you are more likely to be victimised by a black than a hispanic, and more likely to be vicitmised by a hispanic than a white.

i'm not gonna post the FBI uniform crime statistics again. did that already. use the search function.

call me a racist all you like. telling the truth is not racism. take all the hits you want on a 19, but i'm holding.

Is it me - or is there some problems with reading comprehension here. Here - perhaps bigger lettering will help.

I'm not denying the statistics.

The point is that institutions (like the police) can't make assumptions about individuals based on expectations of behaviour - because it automatically confers diminished rights on the entire group. It becomes an institutional policy to treat minorities as second class citizens.

[w¡n9Nµ7 §£@¥€r 123]

How many Indians migrate to America or numerous other western nations, without a dollar to their name? Now, how many Indians do you see or hear of committing crimes? But according to six, the police should also pull them over, just to be PC. Why? they are not the ones committing the crimes. So why should they be inconvenienced and harassed for no other reason than being PC.

I don't think he said cops should pull us over, just to be PC.

I believe he said cops should pull over for reasonable suspicion, not solely because one is black (or hispanic).

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

I am assuming that you don't live in a ghetto or anywhere near those you staunchly defend.

You can't live in Jersey and not be 'near'. He is near and so am I. You're in NoVa so I suspect so are you.

I'll use you as an example.

How many Indians migrate to America or numerous other western nations, without a dollar to their name? Now, how many Indians do you see or hear of committing crimes? But according to six, the police should also pull them over, just to be PC. Why? they are not the ones committing the crimes. So why should they be inconvenienced and harassed for no other reason than being PC.

You're not getting it. The police should pull people over on the basis of reasonable suspicion of having done something wrong. A person's race alone is not reasonable suspicion.

[Peikko 1,575]

I am assuming that you don't live in a ghetto or anywhere near those you staunchly defend.

You can't live in Jersey and not be 'near'. He is near and so am I. You're in NoVa so I suspect so are you.

I'll use you as an example.

How many Indians migrate to America or numerous other western nations, without a dollar to their name? Now, how many Indians do you see or hear of committing crimes? But according to six, the police should also pull them over, just to be PC. Why? they are not the ones committing the crimes. So why should they be inconvenienced and harassed for no other reason than being PC.

No, he is saying that no one should be pulled over and harassed simply because they are black or hispanic. If you don't understand how that is wrong then I feel sorry for you.

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

The roadside pullover thing is a bit of a cliche - but it has happened, and its been taken seriously enough to be addressed as an example of institutional racism. Unfortunately it does still happen - and we also have areas in this country where blacks receive harsher judicial sentences than whites for equivalent crimes.

[Heracles 417]

We may be different - yes, but we all have the same rights - is the point. Individuals should be treated the same and not pre-judged.

On the bolded parts - if you read what I wrote its quite obvious that I didn't deny the statistics. What I'm saying is that institutions likes the police can't use those statistics do diminish the rights of an entire group of people based on expected behaviour. There is such a thing as "reasonable suspicion" and as far as that goes - it shouldn't be (and isn't OK) for a police patrol car to pull over a black man simply because he's black on the assumption that he's likely to be up to no good. This is institutional racism.

How many times does that actually happen though? This example is way overused and has become a "cliché". Probably occurs once every 10,000 police stops yet some act as if this is the norm. Maybe the black police officers are racist as well for pulling them over.

But anyway, what excuse do Hispanics have for their large representation in crime stats? They chose to come here yet don't even have the skills to respect the country, its laws and ultimately its people. Are they all bad, no of course not, but that is irrelevant. No citizen of a country should be a victim of crime carried out by a foreigner. Especially not from one particular race.

People's right to live in a safe community free of violence and crime should always override someone's feelings and being PC.

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

We may be different - yes, but we all have the same rights - is the point. Individuals should be treated the same and not pre-judged.

On the bolded parts - if you read what I wrote its quite obvious that I didn't deny the statistics. What I'm saying is that institutions likes the police can't use those statistics do diminish the rights of an entire group of people based on expected behaviour. There is such a thing as "reasonable suspicion" and as far as that goes - it shouldn't be (and isn't OK) for a police patrol car to pull over a black man simply because he's black on the assumption that he's likely to be up to no good. This is institutional racism.

How many times does that actually happen though? This example is way overused and has become a "cliché". Probably occurs once every 10,000 police stops yet some act as if this is the norm. Maybe the black police officers are racist as well for pulling them over.

But anyway, what excuse do Hispanics have for their large representation in crime stats? They chose to come here yet don't even have the skills to respect the country, its laws and ultimately its people. Are they all bad, no of course not, but that is irrelevant. No citizen of a country should be a victim of crime carried out by a foreigner. Especially not from one particular race.

People's right to live in a safe community free of violence and crime should always override someone's feelings and being PC.

I'm not sure why you keep bringing everything down to "excuses". That's not the gist of what I was saying at all.

[Heracles 417]

How many Indians migrate to America or numerous other western nations, without a dollar to their name? Now, how many Indians do you see or hear of committing crimes? But according to six, the police should also pull them over, just to be PC. Why? they are not the ones committing the crimes. So why should they be inconvenienced and harassed for no other reason than being PC.

I don't think he said cops should pull us over, just to be PC.

I believe he said cops should pull over for reasonable suspicion, not solely because one is black (or hispanic).

You need to target the problem to solve it. Would you say on a cultural level it is cool to be in the ghetto for Indians, definitely not. Everyone aspires to work hard to get out of poverty. Whereas can the same be said about the two major 'minorities' in the United States. The poor in India do not have access to even 1% of the resources available for the poor here. Stuff they could only dream of. They make the most of what they have. Priorities are clearly in different places as is attitude. Education is obviously very important to Indians and the key to exiting poverty.

If a behavior involves one or two individuals, yes this is isolated and accusing everyone of it is generalizing. But when the majority of people with similarities think a certain way then this is a clearly a cultural attribute. Something people here clearly do not grasp. There is even a growing trend with low socioeconomic white Americans trying to be gangstas. That is, rather than actually trying to get ahead they prefer to chill and get involved in illegal activities to get ahead at any cost.

Edited February 5, 2009 by Aficionado

[Danno 1,228]

I am assuming that you don't live in a ghetto or anywhere near those you staunchly defend.

You can't live in Jersey and not be 'near'. He is near and so am I. You're in NoVa so I suspect so are you.

I'll use you as an example.

How many Indians migrate to America or numerous other western nations, without a dollar to their name? Now, how many Indians do you see or hear of committing crimes? But according to six, the police should also pull them over, just to be PC. Why? they are not the ones committing the crimes. So why should they be inconvenienced and harassed for no other reason than being PC.

You're not getting it. The police should pull people over on the basis of reasonable suspicion of having done something wrong. A person's race alone is not reasonable suspicion.

are you suggesting, it could be a factor?