SAWASDEE 3 (2009 Thai thread restarted)

[Kang Lang 7]

toma1,

i can only speak for myself and i'm sure it matters not one bit but i wasn't angered at all by what you said. i didn't agree, but it didn't make me angry. everyone is entitled to their opinion of course, it's one of the very shaky legs this country was founded on! (not trying to spark political debate....just some levity folks )

it's just the internet folks, sometimes we forget that i suppose, we don't "know" each other and hopefully don't spend our spare time consumed with how to evoke change in other peoples "faulty" viewpoints.

anywho i thought i was just commenting and disagreeing respectfull, if it offended you that would be a shame as it wasn't intended to insult.

[toma1 10]

toma1,

i can only speak for myself and i'm sure it matters not one bit but i wasn't angered at all by what you said. i didn't agree, but it didn't make me angry. everyone is entitled to their opinion of course, it's one of the very shaky legs this country was founded on! (not trying to spark political debate....just some levity folks )

it's just the internet folks, sometimes we forget that i suppose, we don't "know" each other and hopefully don't spend our spare time consumed with how to evoke change in other peoples "faulty" viewpoints.

anywho i thought i was just commenting and disagreeing respectfull, if it offended you that would be a shame as it wasn't intended to insult.

You were being very respectful! And frankly, I cannot recall being offended by anything in years anyway; don't worry about it.

Frustration... ya, perhaps. I love a good debate--even if I am the only one on one side of it. But I really hate a bad debate.

I wonder what started the "education doesn't matter" bandwagon. Honestly, I don't care what people think of higher ed. It was a lifestyle choice for me, period. But it is strange that (many) people are going down the "who cares about education anyway?" road. If they want to disagree with my original statement, they should be arguing that "education makes no difference in the visa process." A few did. RSN was one, I believe.

The only thing I even said about education being important was in response to a particularly asinine comment that there was no correlation between education and income. This link has been studied so many times, under so many different conditions, in so many different places that it is impossible to deny it intelligently. The only thing one can say is "I deny the link exists and all of the evidence that shows that that there is a link is intentionally biased." This statement is akin to saying that "The earth is flat and anyone that says otherwise is lying, and no, I won't cite any evidence for my belief." I was happy to bow out of that debate as it had nowhere to go.

My last post was an attempt show people that my argument is that there is some level discrimination in the process. The opposite argument--that everyone else seems to be taking--is that there is not discrimination in the process, hence everyone gets the level of treatment that they deserve. This is basically what Robert said when he replied, "The bottom line concerning getting a visa is: having all the proper evidence and proving a bona fide relationship." He politely did not add, "or else you get what you deserve," but how else can you really take that statement? Did everyone that suffered through needless delays in the process not really have a bonifide relationship? Did they all botch the paperwork? Really? (Though Robert still didn't address the fact that I was talking about procedural delays rather than end results.) Sigh.

Anyway, thanks for the followup... no offense taken.

(I would take issue with the statement that Steve Jobs is well adjusted. As a 30 year Apple user, I admit the man is a brilliant, visionary leader. But his personal life, until recently, was a mess.)

[*Robert* 2]

reading through the last few pages and I felt pretty lucky to be interviewed for K-1 in 2005!

First of all, My husband - then fiance was there with me in the room - Then, only 1-2 questions for me I think.. and the rest he just kinda chat with Bram and that was it... pretty easy

Good luck to all!

By the way - I was raised to believe that education is everything (my parents are professors - but they are the most humble people you'll ever met) But I married a guy with just a High School diploma.. never in a million years growing up I would've thought possible. But he's very smart, honest, and very good at what he does that he's successful in his chosen career still in his 20s. My parent was skeptical at first when they first learn that he didnt have a degree (that's the second question they asked when I introduced him to them) but they trust my judgment.

So my point is that I believe - now - that a degree isnt a guarantee to be successful in life/career. But I still believe that for most, education is going to help them have a better chance in life but for some, it's irrelevance.

i agree it was nice to be able to stand with my husband when he had his interview it made us both less nervous. we had probably 10 questions or so including two each about his past approved and past denied b-2 visas.

as for the education piece my husband has only a high school diploma but for his career a degree would not add one bit of value nor does anyone in thailand in his profession have a degree. with that said he'll be entering community college in the spring. he's so nervous but excited since he would be only the 3rd person in his family to get any post high school education. he paid for 2 of his younger sisters to go to college.

just like alot of you i'm sure...i value education but can point out people who have multiple degrees and are dumber than a bag of hammers conversely i know folk without a degree that are smart as all get out. a degree does not equate with intelligence or success in my book. a couple of pretty successful and (from the very far distance i sit) well adjusted dropouts include tiger woods, bill gates, steve jobs, and less than well adjusted larry ellison.

I couldn't agree more, with both of you, on a couple of points. Like both of you, I was with Chutima during her K-1 visa interview, and everything went smoothly.

Chutima has a college degree, and I have a college degree. Chutima hasn't worked since she got here, so that college degree isn't making her any money at all. I worked in the Navy for 11 years before getting out and going to school to get my engineering degree. During those 11 years, I never worried about how much money I was making, as I was doing just fine. During that period, people with college degrees (i.e. Officers) could try to look down their noses at the sailors who didn't have a college degree, but it didn't mean they were incapable of getting a degree, or not as smart as someone who had a college degree.

Having a piece of paper doesn't guarantee anything in life!

I don't look down on people who don't have a college degree, and I don't think there's anything special about people who do have college degrees (I've met a lot of college grads that have ZERO common sense). A lot of times it's more about opportunity, finances, and personal life choices, as to whether or not someone can get a higher education.

With that said, it is a proven fact that, on average, the more education you have, the more money you make. Though it might not be the case for everyone in today's economy, the basic principle is true; however, it doesn't mean that someone without a strong educational background can't be as equally, if not more, successful.

Edited November 6, 2009 by *Robert*

[anya-D 8]

toma1 - I'm actually not offended in what you siad.. I actually think it might hold true to some degree (Not everything on your list btw). Eventhough we like to think the US embassy cant judge people by demographic, education and background, I think we cant expect every one of them are the same. But - I also know that a lot of time, it doesnt matter at all.

I would agree most on the occupation - ever work in a bar - as it's a slipery slope. It would also depend on the location of the bar too thouhg.. like if the bar itself is in Patphong, Nana or Soi cowboy.. that would rise a big red flag quicker than a bar in say - Ladpraw. The red flag is not about wheather the girl is a scam but more if the girl is involve in prostitution.

I'm actually quiet offended by this thought

" But since you are a professor, I will over look most of what you say, mainly because university educators do not live in the real world, most think they are superior to us working class people. But most professors think they are the elite. In my capacity as a government contractor I dealt with many professors (PHD's) and they are by far the most self centered, I am above everyone else people I have ever met. "

I know he didnt say 'All' but my parents are university professors and a PhD holder so I gotta make thing straight ;p

[Thai Rath 1]

Regardless of how I feel about what's been said, it never ceases to amaze me when folks come to this forum, say something they know is provocative (and based solely on what 99% of us are posting about: our experiences, which are limited in the grand scheme of things), and then act all indignant when people get upset about it. Like you didn't know that was going to happen! Just take responsibility for what you say, that's all.

[toma1 10]

Regardless of how I feel about what's been said, it never ceases to amaze me when folks come to this forum, say something they know is provocative (and based solely on what 99% of us are posting about: our experiences, which are limited in the grand scheme of things), and then act all indignant when people get upset about it. Like you didn't know that was going to happen! Just take responsibility for what you say, that's all.

1. It's provocative to point out that I believe that there is some level of discrimination going on in the process? Sorry, no, I don't "know" that.

2. I specifically said that I was drawing on experiences outside this board.

[toma1 10]

Having a piece of paper doesn't guarantee anything in life!

Unless one's degree came from an email spam, I assume this is hyperbole, but the general point is obviously true.

I don't look down on people who don't have a college degree, and I don't think there's anything special about people who do have college degrees (I've met a lot of college grads that have ZERO common sense). A lot of times it's more about opportunity, finances, and personal life choices, as to whether or not someone can get a higher education.

Any one that has taught at the local state university for any length of time would have to agree. I had one very nice woman in a class that was not really very bright (by her own admission). She just wanted a D so that she could finally graduate and take a six figure job at her dad's huge development company. She told me that she knew that she had no business being in school, but that her dad had told her that she HAD to get a degree before she could work there. [Wow... that must be a record for the most "she's" in one sentence.]

With that said, it is a proven fact that, on average, the more education you have, the more money you make. Though it might not be the case for everyone in today's economy, the basic principle is true; however, it doesn't mean that someone without a strong educational background can't be as equally, if not more, successful.

I agree with all of that. There are almost always outliers from the mean.

Can we agree that using outliers in an attempt to discount the mean (as we have seen in other posts) displays a lack of education in statistics?

Edited November 6, 2009 by toma1

[toma1 10]

toma1 - I'm actually not offended in what you siad.. I actually think it might hold true to some degree (Not everything on your list btw). Eventhough we like to think the US embassy cant judge people by demographic, education and background, I think we cant expect every one of them are the same. But - I also know that a lot of time, it doesnt matter at all.

A LOT of the time--it doesn't; very true! But since there are (relatively speaking) so few interviewers it would only take a few of them to bias the results coming out of the embassy's "black box" such that people with higher educations (or better English skills, or whatever) would--on average--then have better experiences that people with lesser educations.

Correct?

I would agree most on the occupation - ever work in a bar - as it's a slipery slope. It would also depend on the location of the bar too thouhg.. like if the bar itself is in Patphong, Nana or Soi cowboy.. that would rise a big red flag quicker than a bar in say - Ladpraw. The red flag is not about wheather the girl is a scam but more if the girl is involve in prostitution.

Correct, and that is what I really meant by "bar"--just trying to be polite. I'd use the word "nightclub" for something on RCA, which I love, BTW.

Shift manager at Slim? I don't think anyone would think much of it.

Cocktail waitress at Q-bar? I've gotta think some questions will be asked...

ANY job at ANY bar in Nana Plaza? I don't think you will picking up your visa two days later...

Edited November 6, 2009 by toma1

[anya-D 8]

toma1 - I'm actually not offended in what you siad.. I actually think it might hold true to some degree (Not everything on your list btw). Eventhough we like to think the US embassy cant judge people by demographic, education and background, I think we cant expect every one of them are the same. But - I also know that a lot of time, it doesnt matter at all.

A LOT of the time--it doesn't; very true! But since there are (relatively speaking) so few interviewers it would only take a few of them to bias the results coming out of the embassy's "black box" such that people with higher educations (or better English skills, or whatever) would--on average--then have better experiences that people with lesser educations.

Correct?

IMO, eventhough they might have those voice in the back of their head, I'd like to think / expect that the embassy employee are more professional than to show those type of discrimation that has nothing to do with the eligibility of the visa itself. But I would also think that combinding those little voice with the lack of eveidence, the outcome might be different. But I'd think the interviewee's attitude problably play more role than her education or english skills.

[DaveTX 2]

Wow! I was just looking for some confirmation we had enough evidence. I probably should have been much clearer in my original post!

[toma1 10]

IMO, eventhough they might have those voice in the back of their head, I'd like to think / expect that the embassy employee are more professional than to show those type of discrimation that has nothing to do with the eligibility of the visa itself. But I would also think that combinding those little voice with the lack of eveidence, the outcome might be different. But I'd think the interviewee's attitude problably play more role than her education or english skills.

EXACTLY-EXACTLY-EXACTLY RIGHT!

That's why I said that I think that the application gets more scrutiny than it might otherwise get. I don't think it necessarily affects the final result, but I DO think those factors make it more likely that you won't get the K1 visa on the first try due to increased scrutiny.

I didn't go to my wife's interview. But she told me that she and the interviewer spent half+ of the interview discussing stem cell banking and that he could have it done in Thailand much cheaper than back home. You know, they couldn't even get her fingerprints at the embassy. The scanning machines can't read them because they are extremely shallow. They told her that she would have to come back another day when they could have a fingerprint expert take them on paper. She said, "Awww, but I already have my ticket... " And he said (very apologetically), "Well, we can't give visas based on that..." She said that she looked dejected and he said, "Oh... I'll let USCIC deal with this when you get to the states." And he passed her through without prints! (We had the same problem here when we went to do the biometrics--two appointments because of fingerprints.)

[toma1 10]

I didn't go to my wife's interview. But she told me that she and the interviewer spent half+ of the interview discussing stem cell banking and that he could have it done in Thailand much cheaper than back home. You know, they couldn't even get her fingerprints at the embassy. The scanning machines can't read them because they are extremely shallow. They told her that she would have to come back another day when they could have a fingerprint expert take them on paper. She said, "Awww, but I already have my ticket... " And he said (very apologetically), "Well, we can't give visas based on that..." She said that she looked dejected and he said, "Oh... I'll let USCIC deal with this when you get to the states." And he passed her through without prints! (We had the same problem here when we went to do the biometrics--two appointments because of fingerprints.)

I meant to type USCIS.. not CIC... damn edit controls...

[toma1 10]

Anya: Just curious. Were you the beneficiary or the petitioner?

Nevermind... I just read your story. Very nice.

Are you working here now?

Edited November 6, 2009 by toma1

[*Robert* 2]

Anya: Just curious. Were you the beneficiary or the petitioner?

Nevermind... I just read your story. Very nice.

Are you working here now?

She was the beneficiary, and just became a U.S. Citizen. It's in her signature!

Edited November 6, 2009 by *Robert*

[toma1 10]

Anya: Just curious. Were you the beneficiary or the petitioner?

Nevermind... I just read your story. Very nice.

Are you working here now?

She was the beneficiary, and just became a U.S. Citizen. It's in her signature!

Ya... I got it when I read her bio. I have signatures turned off. Absent minded professors...

Edited November 6, 2009 by toma1