SAWASDEE 3 (2009 Thai thread restarted)

[AaronLV 12]

So in the excruciating count down to interview time, my fiancee is obsessing about all the possible things that can go wrong in the interview and have the visa denied. I don't recall seeing anyone denied from the Bangkok embassy for a K-1 and post about it here. Anyone know of anyone denied and why?

Most people are eventually approved. Bangkok is better than many other places, that's for sure. But if you haven't seen any denials, then I think you probably didn't go back far enough. There are lots that have not been approved on the first try. Many of those got a visa on the second try. I think the most common reason was that the embassy did not believe the relationship was real.

From what I can tell, the more reasons the beneficiary has NOT to leave Thailand, the more likely the visa is to be granted. For example:

Things like this tend to result in a favorable decision on the first try:

has a good job

owns property in Thailand

has money

has a college education

speaks English fluently

is from Bangkok

long relationships

Things like this tend to cause more scrutiny:

not enough photos of you together in different places at widely different times

does not speak English well (especially if you do not speak Thai)

no high school education

no job/money

is from the Northeast

short relationships

ever worked in a bar

I think you are way off base with your comments above, and typical thinking of someone who thinks education and money makes you a better person. There are more reasons to scrutinize when someone is college educated (etc.) primarily because they can go to the US and get a much better job then they can find in Thailand, especially if they are a woman. When we went to get our police report and medical (with the attorney), they had another girl come along. She was educated (Masters in something), and had some money, but all she could talk about was the jobs she could get in the US and how much they paid comparatively. When we were sitting waiting for the medical exam, she asked the paralegal that was with us if she could marry someone else once she got to the US, did she have to really marry this guy. The fact of the matter is educated, rich, poor, bar girl, they all want to go somewhere where the opportunities are better for them. There are plenty of stories with all types of people, and the embassy knows this, this again would be why so many tourist visas are denied, even if they have money.

I believe for the most part the embassy scrutinizes everyone about the same, what it comes down to in the end is your evidence, and her answers to the questions. We had issues when we went through, but it wasn't related to any of the above, it was related to our evidence, I had a bunch, but on paper it looked mainly one sided. I came back with the documentation that showed plenty of two way communication and we had no problems. I am sure since my wife was from the NE, and we had a short relationship, they scrutinized us more (sarcasm).

[AaronLV 12]

Perhaps income is simply correlated with education and job, which IS asked on the forms and I have never heard of a 4-year college graduate with a good job in Thailand being refused. Call it speculation if you like, but I have not seen it happen. There are people who have been around here longer than me, however. Maybe one of them can provide an example.

And I am sure because you have a Large Sampling (from visa journey), it does not happen. This website is a small percentage of the people who go through BKK, maybe everyone who is educated here on VJ has made it through, but I have seen plenty of un-educated people go through also, so your statement has no basis in facts.

Again, just because you have a 4 year degree doesn't mean you make good money, whether you live in Thailand or the US. I know people in Thailand that have degrees and don't make money, and I know people in the US that are uneducated and they have jobs that makes more money then most people will make in their lifetime. Education does not correlate to having money, and the people at the embassy I am sure are well aware of this, it also doesn't mean you are going to have a bonafide relationship, rich or poor people lie.

[toma1 10]

I think you are way off base with your comments above, and typical thinking of someone who thinks education and money makes you a better person.

I didn't say that it was fair. I said it seems to be true.

[toma1 10]

And I am sure because you have a Large Sampling (from visa journey), it does not happen. This website is a small percentage of the people who go through BKK, maybe everyone who is educated here on VJ has made it through, but I have seen plenty of un-educated people go through also, so your statement has no basis in facts.

We have talked with many people that have gone through the process that are here now, and have found those things to be generally true. I've met a lot of college educated+ Thais. (I teach at the university level over there in the summer.) And as I said before, I have yet to meet a college educated Thai that had a good job in Bangkok that was not approved on the first try after what--from the interviewee's perspective--seemed like a perfunctory interview. The fact--and you are correct about that--that an educated person might realistically have even more reason to come here does not seem to matter in reality.

Education does not correlate to having money, and the people at the embassy I am sure are well aware of this

That's utter BS. Do you need me to corroborate that, or can you Google it on your own?

[rsn 135]

So in the excruciating count down to interview time, my fiancee is obsessing about all the possible things that can go wrong in the interview and have the visa denied. I don't recall seeing anyone denied from the Bangkok embassy for a K-1 and post about it here. Anyone know of anyone denied and why?

Most people are eventually approved. Bangkok is better than many other places, that's for sure. But if you haven't seen any denials, then I think you probably didn't go back far enough. There are lots that have not been approved on the first try. Many of those got a visa on the second try. I think the most common reason was that the embassy did not believe the relationship was real.

From what I can tell, the more reasons the beneficiary has NOT to leave Thailand, the more likely the visa is to be granted. For example:

Things like this tend to result in a favorable decision on the first try:

has a good job

owns property in Thailand

has money

has a college education

speaks English fluently

is from Bangkok

long relationships

Things like this tend to cause more scrutiny:

not enough photos of you together in different places at widely different times

does not speak English well (especially if you do not speak Thai)

no high school education

no job/money

is from the Northeast

short relationships

ever worked in a bar

Hmm, I'm not sure I agree with your lists. In fact, the only ones I agree with are from your 2nd list are:

• not enough photos of you together in different places at widely different times
• ever worked in a bar
• (possibly) short relationships

The rest of your items sound more like speculation and I'm curious how you came up with these lists. For example, how would the CO even know if the applicant has money or owns property? This information is never requested on any of the spousal or fiancee visa forms I've seen.

Actually, I take back my comment about agreeing with "ever worked in a bar". Unless there is compelling evidence that the person working in the bar was involved in any seedy transactions, the embassy has no basis to deny the visa. Thinking about this even more, I can't fathom how you can come to the conclusions you have drawn here. I simply don't see any reason why most, if not all of these items would have any affect on the outcome of a visa application at all.

[toma1 10]

Actually, I take back my comment about agreeing with "ever worked in a bar". Unless there is compelling evidence that the person working in the bar was involved in any seedy transactions, the embassy has no basis to deny the visa. Thinking about this even more, I can't fathom how you can come to the conclusions you have drawn here. I simply don't see any reason why most, if not all of these items would have any affect on the outcome of a visa application at all.

I don't think we are talking about "basis to deny". The OP appeared to be talking about receiving the visa immediately, and I said that certain things seem to cause "increased scrutiny" which leads to delays in the process. The effect on the outcome comes because when an application receives increased scrutiny, the person adjudicating the case is more likely to find a problem than if the case receives lower scrutiny. Is that not obvious? If you actually believe that putting "Bar Employee" on an application in BKK will not increase the probability that that application will receive administrative processing (regardless of the final outcome), then I'm not sure what else to say.

Frankly, nearly all of my experience outside VJ is with people in the first group. Not only have there been no K or CR visa denials within that group, they have all received visas immediately and ALL of them (100%) reported that the Americans that they dealt with in the BKK Embassy were friendly and professional. (I have heard a FEW complaints about the Thai nationals that work there, but not many.) Of people in that group that applied for B visas, I have seen, I believe, TWO denials, one of which turned up with no documentation AT ALL. The vast majority of the rest (including a lot of single women under age 30) received 10 year visas on the first try. I've seen zero F visa denials among the kids of parents that fall into that group, as well. I'm not saying that there have never been any, but I have not seen one, and I have seen a LOT.

My experience with the second group comes mostly from VJ denials. In the cases in which I have seen problems, assuming we knew something about the beneficiary, it turned out, in every case that the beneficiary fell--to one degree or another--into the second group. I found it to be quite humorous that the LV poster denied all of this and then later said, "We had issues when we went through, but it wasn't related to any of the above, it was related to our evidence...my wife was from the NE, and we had a short relationship". That's all well and good, but I have seen people that fall into the first group approved on what appeared--to me at least--to be rather light evidence more than once. We have also seen MANY cases here in which women whose English was poor reported being treated badly in the Embassy. I think it's common knowledge around here that if you are capable of interviewing in English, that you would be wise to do so. Yet you "can't fathom" how I come to these conclusions?

That's fine; we can agree to disagree on the subject and move on.

[DaveTX 2]

More lively set of responses than I expected!

My situation doesn't fit cleanly in either of those lists.... my fiancee is from the NE, but she has a college degree, she only graduated in December 2008 so her job history is nothing to write home about.. 1 month waiting tables until she found a job as a CSR in a law firm which she quit recently. If she ever worked in a bar, it's not on the forms and I'm not aware of it. The relationship has gone on around 8 months, not sure if that is short or not. A lot of the information in the lists doesn't seem like it would be available to the examiner unless they asked... there is no education section that I could find. My fiancee has "student" on her G-325 simply because it asks for the last 5 years and 4 of those she was a student.

I get the strong impression, especially given people's responses to my question, that it's heavily dependent on the discretion and subjective judgment of whichever person in the embassy works on it. So what causes red flags with one examiner might change completely when it's someone else looking at it.

For evidence to take to the interview we have 28 pictures together taken over two different trips in various places from Angkor Wat to pictures with her family at their home. I put in about 60 pages of email and chat (I have 100s of pages more). Since I noticed Skype supported Thailand we've talked on the phone more than anything... 3-5 times a day since July and I included all those phone records. Passport stamps/boarding passes/etc for my 3 trips are in there too. English is how we communicate and I can't see her having any problem doing the interview in English unless she got really flustered or nervous. Neither of us have kids, nor have either of us ever been married before. Ironically her sister, who lives in France, speaks the best English in the family-- she could almost pass for a US native. Wasted in France!

She was MUCH more worried about it before her medical exam. There were several other ladies there she was talking to who were getting exams for Visas then too.. including one who said she'd gotten a K-1 in the past and was trying for another. A lot of them had far more complications (prior marriages, kids, a couple with bar girl employment, etc.). In comparison, it made our situation seem a lot less risky to her.

[toma1 10]

More lively set of responses than I expected!

My situation doesn't fit cleanly in either of those lists.... my fiancee is from the NE, but she has a college degree, she only graduated in December 2008 so her job history is nothing to write home about.. 1 month waiting tables until she found a job as a CSR in a law firm which she quit recently. If she ever worked in a bar, it's not on the forms and I'm not aware of it. The relationship has gone on around 8 months, not sure if that is short or not. A lot of the information in the lists doesn't seem like it would be available to the examiner unless they asked... there is no education section that I could find. My fiancee has "student" on her G-325 simply because it asks for the last 5 years and 4 of those she was a student.

I get the strong impression, especially given people's responses to my question, that it's heavily dependent on the discretion and subjective judgment of whichever person in the embassy works on it. So what causes red flags with one examiner might change completely when it's someone else looking at it.

For evidence to take to the interview we have 28 pictures together taken over two different trips in various places from Angkor Wat to pictures with her family at their home. I put in about 60 pages of email and chat (I have 100s of pages more). Since I noticed Skype supported Thailand we've talked on the phone more than anything... 3-5 times a day since July and I included all those phone records. Passport stamps/boarding passes/etc for my 3 trips are in there too. English is how we communicate and I can't see her having any problem doing the interview in English unless she got really flustered or nervous. Neither of us have kids, nor have either of us ever been married before. Ironically her sister, who lives in France, speaks the best English in the family-- she could almost pass for a US native. Wasted in France!

She was MUCH more worried about it before her medical exam. There were several other ladies there she was talking to who were getting exams for Visas then too.. including one who said she'd gotten a K-1 in the past and was trying for another. A lot of them had far more complications (prior marriages, kids, a couple with bar girl employment, etc.). In comparison, it made our situation seem a lot less risky to her.

They ask for education and employment history on the DS-230.

Based on this, I think, unless you have a problem in your paperwork that I am unaware of, that you will be fine. DO make sure that she knows your basic life history and practice some of the questions that you find here. She should know your birthday, occupation, education, and family (brothers, sisters, parents names) information. As long as she knows the basics, I would be surprised if she did not get a visa two days after the interview. Don't worry about it.

[rsn 135]

Actually, I take back my comment about agreeing with "ever worked in a bar". Unless there is compelling evidence that the person working in the bar was involved in any seedy transactions, the embassy has no basis to deny the visa. Thinking about this even more, I can't fathom how you can come to the conclusions you have drawn here. I simply don't see any reason why most, if not all of these items would have any affect on the outcome of a visa application at all.

I don't think we are talking about "basis to deny". The OP appeared to be talking about receiving the visa immediately, and I said that certain things seem to cause "increased scrutiny" which leads to delays in the process. The effect on the outcome comes because when an application receives increased scrutiny, the person adjudicating the case is more likely to find a problem than if the case receives lower scrutiny. Is that not obvious? If you actually believe that putting "Bar Employee" on an application in BKK will not increase the probability that that application will receive administrative processing (regardless of the final outcome), then I'm not sure what else to say.

Frankly, nearly all of my experience outside VJ is with people in the first group. Not only have there been no K or CR visa denials within that group, they have all received visas immediately and ALL of them (100%) reported that the Americans that they dealt with in the BKK Embassy were friendly and professional. (I have heard a FEW complaints about the Thai nationals that work there, but not many.) Of people in that group that applied for B visas, I have seen, I believe, TWO denials, one of which turned up with no documentation AT ALL. The vast majority of the rest (including a lot of single women under age 30) received 10 year visas on the first try. I've seen zero F visa denials among the kids of parents that fall into that group, as well. I'm not saying that there have never been any, but I have not seen one, and I have seen a LOT.

My experience with the second group comes mostly from VJ denials. In the cases in which I have seen problems, assuming we knew something about the beneficiary, it turned out, in every case that the beneficiary fell--to one degree or another--into the second group. I found it to be quite humorous that the LV poster denied all of this and then later said, "We had issues when we went through, but it wasn't related to any of the above, it was related to our evidence...my wife was from the NE, and we had a short relationship". That's all well and good, but I have seen people that fall into the first group approved on what appeared--to me at least--to be rather light evidence more than once. We have also seen MANY cases here in which women whose English was poor reported being treated badly in the Embassy. I think it's common knowledge around here that if you are capable of interviewing in English, that you would be wise to do so. Yet you "can't fathom" how I come to these conclusions?

That's fine; we can agree to disagree on the subject and move on.

B and F visas? This is what you are basing some of your conclusions on? Non-immigrant visas are not even in the same ballpark as IVs/spousal/fiancee visas. Of course employment and wealth have an effect on B visas, but they have no effect whatsoever on IVs! Some of your experience appears to be with non-immigrant visas, yet you are applying the same standards to immigrant visa cases when offering advice to the poster.

Also, it is NOT "common knowledge" that your English proficiency has any effect on the outcome of an IV interview. You can find many cases in the Sawasdee threads alone of successful interviews conducted in Thai. Saying something is common knowledge doesn't make it so.

Please show me one case where an applicant's visa approval was delayed because they worked as a legitimate employee in a bar.

Edited November 4, 2009 by rsn

[toma1 10]

B and F visas? This is what you are basing some of your conclusions on? Non-immigrant visas are not even in the same ballpark as IVs/spousal/fiancee visas. Of course employment and wealth have an effect on B visas, but they have no effect whatsoever on IVs! Some of your experience appears to be with non-immigrant visas, yet you are applying the same standards to immigrant visa cases when offering advice to the poster.

I am pointing out that people in certain categories seem to be treated better than others regardless of the type of visa they have applied for. As I said, I have seen the same things with K and CR visas.

Also, it is NOT "common knowledge" that your English proficiency has any effect on the outcome of an IV interview. You can find many cases in the Sawasdee threads alone of successful interviews conducted in Thai. Saying something is common knowledge doesn't make it so.

I absolutely disagree. The fact that there are "many" does not mean that the probability is equal. Basic stats. For example, one approval rate may be 80% and the other 95%... both would have "many" that are approved on the first try.

Please show me one case where an applicant's visa approval was prolonged because they worked as a legitimate employee in a bar.

Please show me an applicant that worked as a legitimate employee in a bar... I have no idea what they were doing in the bar, but the fact that they worked in the bar raised a red flag that had to be dealt with later.

[Kang Lang 7]

i don't want to get into the debate on what causes additional scrutiny etc. i do however want to point out that there are MALE beneficiaries. i realize the vast majority here are female beneficiaries but not all. actually in my actual life i know more male benficiaries. just pointing it out as there are OTHER points of reference and different experiences.

[toma1 10]

i don't want to get into the debate on what causes additional scrutiny etc. i do however want to point out that there are MALE beneficiaries. i realize the vast majority here are female beneficiaries but not all. actually in my actual life i know more male benficiaries. just pointing it out as there are OTHER points of reference and different experiences.

Good point.

[DaveTX 2]

We've gone over all my info several times... practiced again last night. Explaining any detail about my job is probably a problem.... it's not easy to explain to a native English speaker to start with and she has a lot of trouble pronouncing the word "semiconductors".

I guess we're just going through normal obsessing that there is some random red flag we don't know about which is based on the examiner's discretion that she'll get surprised with at the interview!

FWIW I don't think she would have a chance in hell of getting a B Visa......

[toma1 10]

We've gone over all my info several times... practiced again last night. Explaining any detail about my job is probably a problem.... it's not easy to explain to a native English speaker to start with and she has a lot of trouble pronouncing the word "semiconductors".

I guess we're just going through normal obsessing that there is some random red flag we don't know about which is based on the examiner's discretion that she'll get surprised with at the interview!

Actually--in my opinion and perhaps no one else's--I think that not that much depends on the specific examiner, EXCEPT that Thai-speaking examiners seem to be more harsh than English-speaking examiners. Also the examiner is going to have a preconceived notion about you before you walk through the door. In most cases, it seems that the examiner is either instantly mean or instantly friendly. I suspect that that positive or negative attitude is not based on the thoughts of just one single examiner. It then becomes the beneficiary's job to either change the negative opinion or maintain the positive opinion.

I have seen "instantly friendly" interviews go down the toilet, but it is usually because of something that the beneficiary did during the interview. Like show up with wedding pictures for a K1 interview, or not know anything about her fiancee's personal life. Once in a while it is because the examiner notices something in the documentation that they did not notice before.

Yes, sometimes there is a loose cannon at the embassy, but I think that is the exception rather than the rule. One of my wife's friends used to work there and she told us that--in the end--very few K1s are ultimately denied in Bangkok. But many do require more than one interview, and some take quite a while. I had a student there that said the same thing... but his number one memory of working in the BKK embassy was the number of Americans that called the embassy (from the US) to say that their son/husband/uncle/friend/cousin went to Thailand and has disappeared. He said that happened every day. It always ended up being a voluntary disappearance...

FWIW I don't think she would have a chance in hell of getting a B Visa......

Most under 30 single women that I know that get them own a business and/or a house and have multimillion baht bank accounts (or they have parents that hire them as officers in their parents' companies).

Edited November 4, 2009 by toma1

[*Robert* 2]

Sounds to me like A LOT of stereotyping and conjecture going on.

I wonder, Tom, if your wife fell into category 2, if you'd be going on the way you are about how great category 1 is?

I also find it amazing how you know the inner thought process' of the COs so well. That is a true gift.

The bottom line concerning getting a visa is: having all the proper evidence and proving a bona fide relationship.

Edited November 4, 2009 by *Robert*