Obama gives first formal TV interview of his Presidency, not to Fox or CNN or MSNBC or CBS or NBC or Bloomberg...... but to al-Arabiya

[Trumplestiltskin 5,791]

Well its not like there's an exact science here...

But I suspect its obvious to well... everyone that foreign interventions in Afghanistan have done little for the political stability of that country.

Of course given that the world abandoned Afghanistan after the Soviets pulled out, leaving a country with a shattered infrastructure and a predominantly youthful (i.e. uneducated) population - its no surprise that extremism took root there.

[mRx 16]

The defense of America is not achieved by destroying existing governments, and creating "nominally stable governments" in their stead. This actually makes us more vulnerable than safe as a country, as meddling in other nation's affairs hasn't really been welcomed with open arms. (See 9/11)

Your theory neglects that U.S. influence in Afghanistan was minimial after the Soviets left. We could lob more cruise missiles in as we did in the 1990s but that failed and we got 9/11 instead.

Key phrase: After the Soviets left. Why did the Soviets leave? Because in protecting "American interests" (read: oil), we trained and armed a group of people to use guerilla tactics against the occupying Soviets. This group is known as the Taliban.

So you think that once we poured weapons and ammo to help defeat the Soviets, that these militants were just going to put down their weapons and be good pawns?

And I don't agree with Obama's proposed strategy in Afghanistan, so you can stop using that to try to counter my argument.

So you think Obama is just a more clever hypocrite?

I think that he was a much better choice than McCain. The GOP needs to really think it's warfare state and police state policies.

But I am not expecting Obama to live up to anything. Anything that we were promised by a candidate is nothing more than empty words, as they are not contractually obligated to do anything they said they would.

Voting has essentially become the picking of the lesser of the two evils.

[alienlovechild 75]

Key phrase: After the Soviets left. Why did the Soviets leave? Because in protecting "American interests" (read: oil), we trained and armed a group of people to use guerilla tactics against the occupying Soviets. This group is known as the Taliban.

No oil in Afghanistan but there's lots of opium. The Taliban didn't exist at the time the Soviets we were supporting the mujahadeen there. Your history is pretty far off.

So you think that once we poured weapons and ammo to help defeat the Soviets, that these militants were just going to put down their weapons and be good pawns?

Nope. They just went back the status quo ante of tribalism, clans and fighting each other.

But I am not expecting Obama to live up to anything. Anything that we were promised by a candidate is nothing more than empty words, as they are not contractually obligated to do anything they said they would.

Voting has essentially become the picking of the lesser of the two evils.

So you flipped a coin? I do believe you're correct it's lesser of two evils at the polls.

Edited January 27, 2009 by alienlovechild

[Pinocchio Liberal 268]

What, the US military has become a education facility?

[mRx 16]

Key phrase: After the Soviets left. Why did the Soviets leave? Because in protecting "American interests" (read: oil), we trained and armed a group of people to use guerilla tactics against the occupying Soviets. This group is known as the Taliban.

No oil in Afghanistan but there's lots of opium. The Taliban didn't exist at the time the Soviets we were supporting the mujahadeen there. Your history is pretty far off.

Specifically the prospect of an oil pipeline that transits from the Caspian to the Arabian via Turkmenistan, Afghanistan, and Pakistan. Either that or go straight through Iran, but the aftermath of the overthrow of Mossedegh pretty much eliminated that option. If the Soviets were allowed to defeat and control Afghanistan, then the pipeline would be completely impossible. The mujahideen we were sending shoulder fired rockets to, and that was also supported by the ISI, became the Taliban. I believe my history is on target, sir.

So you think that once we poured weapons and ammo to help defeat the Soviets, that these militants were just going to put down their weapons and be good pawns?

Nope. They just went back the status quo ante of tribalism, clans and fighting each other.

You're failing to see that the real anarchy didn't start until after mujahideen defeated the Soviets.

But I am not expecting Obama to live up to anything. Anything that we were promised by a candidate is nothing more than empty words, as they are not contractually obligated to do anything they said they would.

Voting has essentially become the picking of the lesser of the two evils.

So you flipped a coin? I do believe you're correct it's lesser of two evils at the polls.

No, I didn't flip a coin. I'm not a liberal or a conservative. McCain's yes vote on the bailouts was the straw that broke the camel's back for me.

[Peikko 1,575]

Key phrase: After the Soviets left. Why did the Soviets leave? Because in protecting "American interests" (read: oil), we trained and armed a group of people to use guerilla tactics against the occupying Soviets. This group is known as the Taliban.

No oil in Afghanistan but there's lots of opium. The Taliban didn't exist at the time the Soviets we were supporting the mujahadeen there. Your history is pretty far off.

Specifically the prospect of an oil pipeline that transits from the Caspian to the Arabian via Turkmenistan, Afghanistan, and Pakistan. Either that or go straight through Iran, but the aftermath of the overthrow of Mossedegh pretty much eliminated that option. If the Soviets were allowed to defeat and control Afghanistan, then the pipeline would be completely impossible. The mujahideen we were sending shoulder fired rockets to, and that was also supported by the ISI, became the Taliban. I believe my history is on target, sir.

So you think that once we poured weapons and ammo to help defeat the Soviets, that these militants were just going to put down their weapons and be good pawns?

Nope. They just went back the status quo ante of tribalism, clans and fighting each other.

You're failing to see that the real anarchy didn't start until after mujahideen defeated the Soviets.

But I am not expecting Obama to live up to anything. Anything that we were promised by a candidate is nothing more than empty words, as they are not contractually obligated to do anything they said they would.

Voting has essentially become the picking of the lesser of the two evils.

So you flipped a coin? I do believe you're correct it's lesser of two evils at the polls.

No, I didn't flip a coin. I'm not a liberal or a conservative. McCain's yes vote on the bailouts was the straw that broke the camel's back for me.

Ha, you filthy librul, and you harbour camels, that's tantamount to admitting you are a terrorist!

[aidan80 9]

Why do you hate the Jews, Aidan?

Since when did I hate jews?

You want to weaken Israel thereby allowing the Arabs to finish what Hitler started.

You don't say it in those words but that is the end result of your anti-Israel stance. You are smart enough to know it, too.

So again: why do you hate Jews?

Because you said they where all evil!

[w¡n9Nµ7 §£@¥€r 123]

Why do you hate the Jews, Aidan?

Since when did I hate jews?

You want to weaken Israel thereby allowing the Arabs to finish what Hitler started.

You don't say it in those words but that is the end result of your anti-Israel stance. You are smart enough to know it, too.

So again: why do you hate Jews?

Because you said they where all evil!

That is actually a great comeback but... it's late. You lose!

[Ban Hammer 13,678]

Why do you hate the Jews, Aidan?

Since when did I hate jews?

You want to weaken Israel thereby allowing the Arabs to finish what Hitler started.

You don't say it in those words but that is the end result of your anti-Israel stance. You are smart enough to know it, too.

So again: why do you hate Jews?

Because you said they where all evil!

That is actually a great comeback but... it's late. You lose!

and he believed what you say. not only does he hate jews, he believes what aj says!

[alienlovechild 75]

Specifically the prospect of an oil pipeline that transits from the Caspian to the Arabian via Turkmenistan, Afghanistan, and Pakistan. Either that or go straight through Iran, but the aftermath of the overthrow of Mossedegh pretty much eliminated that option. If the Soviets were allowed to defeat and control Afghanistan, then the pipeline would be completely impossible. The mujahideen we were sending shoulder fired rockets to, and that was also supported by the ISI, became the Taliban. I believe my history is on target, sir.

Hard to tell where to start on this one. Get a map. The supposed pipeline was supposed to be from Turkmenistan but the amount oil and gas is pretty small by world standards and certainly not worth going through Afghanistan. The only time that was considered was when the Taliban had control over 90% of the country. That ended when the U.S. took out the Taliban; therefore, U.S. intervention killed the project not that other way around. If you don't believe me, feel free to show me a map of the pipeline built in the last 8 years in Afghanistan. I still can't believe this pipeline talk is still around after all these years of war.

"overthrow of Mossedegh"

He was deposed in the 1950s so I think you're referring to the Shah in 1979.

If the Soviets were allowed to defeat and control Afghanistan, then the pipeline would be completely impossible

No ,no, no, the Soviets didn't exist because the USSR went under in 1991. The pipeline didn't start until 1995. Anyway, the Russian-Afghan War had nothing to do with the Soviets needing it for a pipeline.

"The original project started in March 1995 when an inaugural memorandum of understanding between the governments of Turkmenistan and Pakistan for a pipeline project was signed."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trans-Afghanistan_Pipeline

The mujahideen we were sending shoulder fired rockets to, and that was also supported by the ISI, became the Taliban

I understand the confusion on this one since the media did such a crappy job on it. Try reading http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taliban.

"Mullah Omar's original commanders were "a mixture of former small-unit military commanders and Madrasah teachers,"[8] and the rank and file made up mostly of Afghan refugees who had studied at Islamic religious schools in Pakistan." They weren't mujahideen veterans for the most part. You're right about Pakistani intelligence being a big player with the Taliban but the Taliban and mujahideen were enemies most of the time.

Edited January 29, 2009 by alienlovechild

[mRx 16]

Specifically the prospect of an oil pipeline that transits from the Caspian to the Arabian via Turkmenistan, Afghanistan, and Pakistan. Either that or go straight through Iran, but the aftermath of the overthrow of Mossedegh pretty much eliminated that option. If the Soviets were allowed to defeat and control Afghanistan, then the pipeline would be completely impossible. The mujahideen we were sending shoulder fired rockets to, and that was also supported by the ISI, became the Taliban. I believe my history is on target, sir.

Hard to tell where to start on this one. Get a map. The supposed pipeline was supposed to be from Turkmenistan but the amount oil and gas is pretty small by world standards and certainly not worth going through Afghanistan. The only time that was considered was when the Taliban had control over 90% of the country. That ended when the U.S. took out the Taliban; therefore, U.S. intervention killed the project not that other way around. If you don't believe me, feel free to show me a map of the pipeline built in the last 8 years in Afghanistan. I still can't believe this pipeline talk is still around after all these years of war.

Where is the oil going to go from Turkmenistan from the Caspian? It needs to get to the Arabian to be of any value to the international market. Perhaps you need to get a map. I'll make it easy for you.

Caspian sea oil was thought to be valued at over 10 trillion during the Soviet occupation of Afghanistan. So the actual value of the oil, and the unprofitability of a pipeline today are irrelevant.

"overthrow of Mossedegh"

He was deposed in the 1950s so I think you're referring to the Shah in 1979.

No. We ousted the democratically elected Mossedegh, and put in the pro-American, corrupt Shah, who was ousted by the Iranian people in the Iranian Revolution. The further leaders were progressively more anti-American imperialism. That's what happens when a foreign country tries to control who leads you. You earn enemies.

If the Soviets were allowed to defeat and control Afghanistan, then the pipeline would be completely impossible

No ,no, no, the Soviets didn't exist because the USSR went under in 1991. The pipeline didn't start until 1995. Anyway, the Russian-Afghan War had nothing to do with the Soviets needing it for a pipeline. .

The economic collapse and fall of the USSR was not predictable during the '80's. Therefore the fact that they went under in 1991 doesn't change the fact that were powerful in the '80's. Relevance is important.

The mujahideen we were sending shoulder fired rockets to, and that was also supported by the ISI, became the Taliban

I understand the confusion on this one since the media did such a crappy job on it. Try reading http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taliban.

"Mullah Omar's original commanders were "a mixture of former small-unit military commanders and Madrasah teachers,"[8] and the rank and file made up mostly of Afghan refugees who had studied at Islamic religious schools in Pakistan." They weren't mujahideen veterans for the most part. You're right about Pakistani intelligence being a big player with the Taliban but the Taliban and mujahideen were enemies most of the time.

From your own link:

some basis for military support of the Taliban was provided when, in the early 1980s, the CIA and the ISI (Pakistan's Interservices Intelligence Agency) provided arms to Afghans resisting the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan, and the ISI assisted the process of gathering radical Muslims from around the world to fight against the Soviets. Osama Bin Laden was one of the key players in organizing training camps for the foreign Muslim volunteers. The U.S. poured funds and arms into Afghanistan, and "by 1987, 65,000 tons of U.S.-made weapons and ammunition a year were entering the war.

[alienlovechild 75]

You really should read my linked source even if I didn't read the newer version.

Where is the oil going to go from Turkmenistan from the Caspian? It needs to get to the Arabian to be of any value to the international market. Perhaps you need to get a map. I'll make it easy for you.

How about through the Caspian? It's on the map. It's that big body of water.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Caucasus_Pipeline

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trans-Caspian_Gas_Pipeline

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baku-Tbilisi-Ceyhan_pipeline

You- If the Soviets were allowed to defeat and control Afghanistan, then the pipeline would be completely impossible

Me- No ,no, no, the Soviets didn't exist because the USSR went under in 1991. The pipeline didn't start until 1995. Anyway, the Russian-Afghan War had nothing to do with the Soviets needing it for a pipeline. .

The economic collapse and fall of the USSR was not predictable during the '80's. Therefore the fact that they went under in 1991 doesn't change the fact that were powerful in the '80's. Relevance is important.

You're more than confused here. You claimed all this stuff about an oil pipeline being a big reason behind the U.S-Afghan War. There's no relevance to Soviet economy here. Look at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_war_in_Afghanistan. Hit control "F" for "oil" and you will see nothing a pipeline then.

Also, next time read a source. It could help you out.

"The Dauletabad Gas Field (also Döwletabat and until 1991 known as Sovietabad) is the largest natural gas field in Turkmenistan with estimated reserves of 1.4 trillion cubic meters (TCM) of gas.[citation needed] However, there are some doubts about the size of actual reserves.[citation needed]

The production started at the Dauletabad field in 1983. After the independence of Turkmenistan, production declined significantly, but increased again after 1998. Currently, the gas is exported via the Central Asia-Center gas pipeline system.

The Dauletabad field has been cited as a possible supply source for the Trans-Afghanistan Pipeline, but according to the Asian Development Bank, the field's production forecasts are "lower than expected" and that "production is predicted to decline."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trans-Afghanistan_Pipeline

"The Afghan government is expected to receive 8% of the project's revenue."

"The pipeline is expected to be operational by 2014."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trans-Afghanistan_Pipeline

some basis for military support of the Taliban was provided when, in the early 1980s, the CIA and the ISI (Pakistan's Interservices Intelligence Agency) provided arms to Afghans resisting the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan, and the ISI assisted the process of gathering radical Muslims from around the world to fight against the Soviets. Osama Bin Laden was one of the key players in organizing training camps for the foreign Muslim volunteers. The U.S. poured funds and arms into Afghanistan, and "by 1987, 65,000 tons of U.S.-made weapons and ammunition a year were entering the war.

No kidding. yeah, a lot of weapons ended up in Taliban hands after the war but the mujahdeen and taliban aren't the same. The bulk of the Taliban weren't in the anti-Russian war. Hello, it was 20 years ago. They aren't the same guys.

Edited January 29, 2009 by alienlovechild

[mRx 16]

Ok, all those pipelines are going through countries that were Soviet Republics in the 80's! Afghanistan wasn't one. It very well may have been had we not intervened. Granted, Turkmenistan was also, but far from as centralized as those countries that those three pipelines transit through, and with corruption abound, it would have very well been possible to get a pipe through there. But put that aside for now. The main aim of America was to get the Socialist Soviets away from the oil, and we did that by manipulating the Mujahideen to fight for our interests for us. In fact, the Taliban is a child of the violence that we fueled.

And your article that you wanted me to CTRL-F hints at this as well:

U.S President Jimmy Carter indicated that the Soviet incursion was "the most serious threat to peace since the Second World War." Carter later placed a trade embargo against the Soviet Union on shipments of commodities such as grain. The increased tensions, as well as the anxiety in the West about tens of thousands of Soviet troops being in such proximity to oil-rich regions in the gulf, effectively brought about the end of détente.